The attack on Rahvin in Caemlyn

[ROB_88]

i got a few questions on it.

 

1. where is all the population at the time? Rand mentions that the streets should be full of people yet it's empty.

 

2. there are a whole bunch of trollocs there, yet IIRC some people still don't believe Gaebril is a forsaken, and how did he manage to hide them all?

 

3. this is more about how balefire works. we know that Rand balefires Ravhin powerful enough to bring back Mat and the rest, but shouldn't that mean that Rand would no longer be in TAR since he's there because he followed Rahvin.

plus he got a few bites by dream-fishes made by Rahvin, those bitemarks should begone too, yet they are not

[the_Genghis_Khan]

Good point on number 3, if it's true. ???

[Gentled Ben]

I think RJ addressed that in an interview once, but I'm not sure where. I've wondered about the first one, too. I suppose he laid down some martial law or something, but if that were the case, you'd think there'd be mention of that in some of Elayne's chapters in Caemlyn.  :-\

[DukeBob]

I think RJ addressed that in an interview once, but I'm not sure where. I've wondered about the first one, too. I suppose he laid down some martial law or something, but if that were the case, you'd think there'd be mention of that in some of Elayne's chapters in Caemlyn.  :-\

 

From the WOT FAQ

Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out:

 

    I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example.

[mb]

The emptiness of the streets I take was because Rand was in Telaranrhiod.

 

About Telaranrhiod & balefire; the varying time correspondence to waking world might be a factor here.

Also, Rand's entering was not due to Rahvin but was Rand's own choice.

 

[ROB_88]

I think RJ addressed that in an interview once, but I'm not sure where. I've wondered about the first one, too. I suppose he laid down some martial law or something, but if that were the case, you'd think there'd be mention of that in some of Elayne's chapters in Caemlyn.  :-\

 

From the WOT FAQ

Joel Gilmore went to see RJ at a book signing in Australia (21 September, 1999), and here's what he found out:

 

    I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example.

 

so you mean that in TAR the rule of physics do not apply?

that works. it is TAR after all

 

The emptiness of the streets I take was because Rand was in Telaranrhiod.

 

About Telaranrhiod & balefire; the varying time correspondence to waking world might be a factor here.

Also, Rand's entering was not due to Rahvin but was Rand's own choice.

 

 

i hate to copy Ares and the bunch here, but be quiet.

 

the empty streets were in the real world right as the attack started

the rest is just wrong

[mb]

the empty streets were in the real world right as the attack started

Ok.  Maybe Rahvin's servants chased the people away.

 

the rest is just wrong

How?

Rand's Gateway was done by only Rand's channeling; and Rand was not controlled by Rahvin at the time.

And Telaranrhiod does vary in its time correspondence to real world.

 

[zanotam]

the empty streets were in the real world right as the attack started

Ok.  Maybe Rahvin's servants chased the people away.

 

the rest is just wrong

How?

Rand's Gateway was done by only Rand's channeling; and Rand was not controlled by Rahvin at the time.

And Telaranrhiod does vary in its time correspondence to real world.

 

 

Not necessarily. While DREAMING the time has no correspondence, but in the few times people have entered physically, no such lack or correspondence has been shown.

[ROB_88]

the rest is just wrong

How?

Rand's Gateway was done by only Rand's channeling; and Rand was not controlled by Rahvin at the time.

And Telaranrhiod does vary in its time correspondence to real world.

 

 

but he did the gateway in reaction to ravhin doing the same, which is exactly what Balefire is all about.

not only does the targets action become erased, but other peoples reactions to the target.

and if it can erase the stuff from before he even entered TAR then the time difference is null.

 

so that qoute about the laws of physics being different in TAR is the only plausible way

[Mr Ares]

i hate to copy Ares and the bunch here, but be quiet.

I hate you copying me as well, especially as you do it so badly.

[Kaznen]

Rand followed Rahvin into TAR.  Rahvin didn't bring him.  So Rand being in TAR wasn't a direct result of Rahvin.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Another anomaly about Rahvin and balefire that has never been explained -

 

The description of Rahvin's death is unique.  In every other instance of using balefire that we see, the victim is always described as appearing to turn into a negative image that breaks apart into shimmery motes that ( relatively ) slowly vanish. 

The Darkhounds in Rhuidean had become motes before they vanished, whatever kind of life they had had struggling to continue, or the Pattern struggling to maintain itself even for them.  Before this, Rahvin simply ... ceased.

 

Given Jordan's style of repetitive description, I distrust that anything or anyone whom he described using unique terms means what we think it does.

[Arath Faringal]

Rhavin's unique demise was because of how much balefire was used.  The more powerful the balefire, the faster the target will 'disperse'.  Most other targets were killed with a small amount, while Rhavin was obliterated with the biggest blast Rand could manage.

[Graendals favourite]

I think the questions number 1 & 2 indicate one thing: Rahvin also knew Rand was going to come that morning. Rahvin could order all people out of the streets, and for all non-Darkfriends to avoid parts of the palace, but not indefinitely. He also knew Rand was coming for him, and then, just the same as Moghedien did. Of course, Rand told all the Aiel chiefs the night before, so word could spread to the right ears, even without more complicated scenarios. But both 1 and 2 could not be simply because he had named himself King of Andor and martial law, there would be no need for the Trollocs in the Palace, and ready, it was too planned to be chance.

[Braus]

the rest is just wrong

How?

Rand's Gateway was done by only Rand's channeling; and Rand was not controlled by Rahvin at the time.

And Telaranrhiod does vary in its time correspondence to real world.

 

 

but he did the gateway in reaction to ravhin doing the same, which is exactly what Balefire is all about.

not only does the targets action become erased, but other peoples reactions to the target.

and if it can erase the stuff from before he even entered TAR then the time difference is null.

 

so that qoute about the laws of physics being different in TAR is the only plausible way

 

That hardly sounds right at all. So you saying that whenever you balefire someone you are chasing, you will instantly be teleported back a couple of steps depending of how much power there is in your balefire. Say you jump after someone on a ledge and balefire him, you will be teleported back to the ledge if you hit him with the balefire because his the reason you jumped in the first place?

[TheRealTaim]

1. where is all the population at the time? Rand mentions that the streets should be full of people yet it's empty.

 

This I took as being a shadowspawn effect. When Myrrdraal's are around people seem to naturally slope off, like in the square at Whitebridge in TEOTW

[Titan Orion]

3. this is more about how balefire works. we know that Rand balefires Ravhin powerful enough to bring back Mat and the rest, but shouldn't that mean that Rand would no longer be in TAR since he's there because he followed Rahvin.

 

You could pull balefire to pieces with this train of thought. If Rand killed Rahvin with balefire, Rahvin no longer walked into the spot he was stood in when the balefire hit him, did he? So, the fact that balefire killed him should also save him from the very same bar of balefire because he wasnt stood in the place he was when it hit him. Do you see? There is only so far you push this question.

 

Regarding the fishbites. I can think of two possible explanations as to why they remain, although both could be wrong. Firstly, Rahvin caused those bites indirectly, as in, his actions caused something else to wound Rand, not Rahvins actions themselves, so whether or not that counts... The second one is that it was in TAR, we dont know how that effects things like balefire but it might.

[Mcpatrick]

3. this is more about how balefire works. we know that Rand balefires Ravhin powerful enough to bring back Mat and the rest, but shouldn't that mean that Rand would no longer be in TAR since he's there because he followed Rahvin.

 

You could pull balefire to pieces with this train of thought. If Rand killed Rahvin with balefire, Rahvin no longer walked into the spot he was stood in when the balefire hit him, did he? So, the fact that balefire killed him should also save him from the very same bar of balefire because he wasnt stood in the place he was when it hit him. Do you see? There is only so far you push this question.

 

Regarding the fishbites. I can think of two possible explanations as to why they remain, although both could be wrong. Firstly, Rahvin caused those bites indirectly, as in, his actions caused something else to wound Rand, not Rahvins actions themselves, so whether or not that counts... The second one is that it was in TAR, we dont know how that effects things like balefire but it might.

 

Maybe its just that your own balefire will not reverse any actions done to you? Rand still had the little bit of dark hound slobber that Moiraine had to heal in Rhuidean, after he balefired the first set of dark hounds.

[bob bobato]

the rest is just wrong

How?

Rand's Gateway was done by only Rand's channeling; and Rand was not controlled by Rahvin at the time.

And Telaranrhiod does vary in its time correspondence to real world.

 

 

but he did the gateway in reaction to ravhin doing the same, which is exactly what Balefire is all about.

not only does the targets action become erased, but other peoples reactions to the target.

and if it can erase the stuff from before he even entered TAR then the time difference is null.

Where in the book have people's reactions ever been erased by balefire?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rhavin's unique demise was because of how much balefire was used.  The more powerful the balefire, the faster the target will 'disperse'.  Most other targets were killed with a small amount, while Rhavin was obliterated with the biggest blast Rand could manage.

 

Yes, he was.  But there's also the end of the battle as viewed from Nynaeve's perspective:

Liquid fire sliced up into the colonnade, so hot it made the fire she had made seem cool.  Shock made her release her weaving, and she flung up a hand to protect her face, yet before she had raised halfway, the liquid fire was gone.  So was Rahvin.  She did not believe he had escaped.  There had been an instant, so brief she could almost have imagined it, when that white bar touched him and he became ... mist.  Just an instant.  She could have imagined.  But she did not believe so.  She drew a shuddering breath.

 

Nynaeve had the best view, and she isn't certain what happened.  Did he die?  Or, did he somehow become mist and escape?  Jordan definitely left himself a way for things to have gone either way.  Whether Sanderson will use that small window of opportunity, or not???

[Braus]

Doesnt change the fact that Mat/Avienda and Asmodeus survived because of the balefire, so he must have died.

[mb]

Possible answers to the first and second questions (of original poster):

Rahvin used Caemlyn's Waygate to bring the Trollocs & Myrddraal.

The people in the streets were scared by the Trollocs.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The Ways were the only way he could have gotten them there.

 

Given his attitude at the beginning of the book, I'm betting they were part of his whole shoot first strategy whenever any channeling was detected from anybody.  Remember he tells Lanfear, "What do you mean to come sneaking up on me? he demanded roughly.  He did not let go of the Power, but rather prepared several nasty surprises in case he had need.  "If you want to speak with me, send an emissary, and I will decide when and where.  And if."

 

Rahvin makes it pretty clear that Caemlyn is his and none of the others are supposed to come anywhere near.  On penalty of preemptive attack if they do.  He's utterly paranoid, not just about Rand but about betrayal by one of the others, as well.  Stocking up on Trollocs and Myrrdraal would seem like a sensible precaution against anyone to him.

[Mr Ares]

Regarding the fishbites. I can think of two possible explanations as to why they remain, although both could be wrong. Firstly, Rahvin caused those bites indirectly, as in, his actions caused something else to wound Rand, not Rahvins actions themselves, so whether or not that counts... The second one is that it was in TAR, we dont know how that effects things like balefire but it might.

You missed this quote, provided earlier in the thread: "I got an answer to the Rahvin/balefire/T'A'R question - when someone is BFed, the constructs they make in T'A'R do not disappear, but instead fade away slowly over time. There are lots of weird effects associated with T'A'R and balefire, such as the way the world flickers after balefire is used. I asked him just generally about it, and then he jumped straight in, gave the answer, then used the Rand and the fish example."

 

Did he die?

Yes.

Or, did he somehow become mist and escape?

No.

[RAMb0211]

Rob, if you think along these lines the only conclusion you can come to is that Balefire is useless. If it reverted the attacker's actions as well it would erase his/her decision to even use balefire. I suppose that could be used as some form of torture Hehe. Killing someone only to have them back alive an instant later, but as a weapon it would be totally defunct.