A few theories of mine

[loosehead]

1. The Rand Must Die To Live Thing

 

my opinion on this is not that rand must die but that LTT must die to allow rand to live... their souls must be separated in someway during the last battle allowing rand to survive... Rand dying is to obvious!! also the idea that maybe Rand and Moridin switch bodies seems kinda lame to me... just my thought

 

2. Taim, Logain and The Black Tower

 

an interesting point. I think it is inherently obvious that Taim is either a new dreadlord or a supreme darkfriend so from this and the glory presented to Logain by Min my opinion is a climatic battle of good vs evil Asha'man in which Logain triumphs to pronounce himself the M'Hael... i am sure that the Black Tower will survive and continue. In fact i just wish there was a 13th book focusing on the growing trust a relations that will develop between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai

 

my reasoning - i believe the term WARDER is a corruption from the Age of Legends that has happened because of the Breaking... I think that Warders are just a substitute for the "guardians" ie Aes Sedai

 

therefore it will become a prequisite that Warders will have to be Asha'man and the relations between the towers will shape the future of the world

[Guest cwestervelt]

I disagree with you on the second part because it is too inherently obvious that Taim is Dark. RJ is subtle, and I'm suspicious of anything that he makes so blatantly obvious. The people around Taim are very Dark, but I see Taim as their stool pigeon. He's so arrogant (and I suspect insane) that people don't even look twice at anyone around him. They hide in his shadow, feed his arrogance, and can safely do whatever they want because everyone will blame it on Taim.

 

I take it you must mean the male Aes Sedai when you refer to the "guardians" that the Warder's replaced. I don't agree. During the 2nd Age, there wasn't a seperation among the Aes Sedai or any concept of "guardians" for men and "servants" for women. That seperation is a 3rd Age concept resulting from the Taint on Saidin. With Saidin cleansed, both the White Tower, and the Black Tower are obsolete and need to be replaced with a single unified and completely new entity. As long as anything remains of their current identities, they will never see themselves as equal.

 

Before that can happen, both the men and women need to remember what makes them Aes Sedai. The men need to remember that it isn't just what they can do to others, but what they can do for others. The women need to remember that, contrary to Suian's assertions, it isn't the Three Oath's that make them Aes Sedai, it is, once again, what they can do for others that makes them Aes Sedai. Both of them need to remember that is is Service and not Domination that gives them their power.

[Osangar1282083176]

I aggree with your theory about the death of Rand. It is a theory I have long held. It is the only realistic explanation for why LTT is present in Rand's body.

[bratr]

I also agree with the LLT death Rand live theory you put foward but I must agree with cwestervelt on the second point. Imean look at Taim , in the past he wasn't always crazy. I think he just let the power go to his head and now is being used directy or inderectly by some darkfriend in the BT (dasiva?)

 

As for joing the WT and the BT. to do that Egwene first would have to take control of all the Aesedai for real not just act the queenly role of the Armylian seat, and secondly Rand would have to clean up the BT

Lastly Rand and Egwene would have to force the two kinds of channelers to join.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "my opinion on this is not that rand must die but that LTT must die to allow rand to live... their souls must be separated in someway during the last battle allowing rand to survive... Rand dying is to obvious!! also the idea that maybe Rand and Moridin switch bodies seems kinda lame to me... just my thought" Unqoute

 

I doubt that Lews Therin has to die because he already has. He IS dead, and the reason (and I mean THE reason, which was confirmed by Semirhage) that Rand hears Lews Therins voice is that madness creates a link between you and your past life. Obviously Rand isnt full on hardcore insane but the taint affected him as it did any other Ashaman before the Cleansing. Rand is partially insane, but that is enough for him to experience the past life connection thing. So Lews Therins voice is real, but that means that Rand is abit crazy

[Trib4l]

But what would Semhirage honestly know about that? She was bound along with the DO at the same time as his counterstrike of tainting Saidin. It's more likely that was one of her lies.

 

How would LTT be able to take over Rand's body if he were just a voice? He's obviously a living entity, a soul, that is within Rand's body along with Rand.

[algspkr]

1. The Rand Must Die To Live Thing

 

my opinion on this is not that rand must die but that LTT must die to allow rand to live... their souls must be separated in someway during the last battle allowing rand to survive... Rand dying is to obvious!! also the idea that maybe Rand and Moridin switch bodies seems kinda lame to me... just my thought

Rand and LTT share the same soul, they are not two souls in one body, but I believe the rest may be accurate.

2. Taim, Logain and The Black Tower

 

an interesting point. I think it is inherently obvious that Taim is either a new dreadlord or a supreme darkfriend so from this and the glory presented to Logain by Min my opinion is a climatic battle of good vs evil Asha'man in which Logain triumphs to pronounce himself the M'Hael... i am sure that the Black Tower will survive and continue. In fact i just wish there was a 13th book focusing on the growing trust a relations that will develop between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai

 

my reasoning - i believe the term WARDER is a corruption from the Age of Legends that has happened because of the Breaking... I think that Warders are just a substitute for the "guardians" ie Aes Sedai therefore it will become a prequisite that Warders will have to be Asha'man and the relations between the towers will shape the future of the world

I disagree with some of this. First there were niether Asha'man nor warders in the Age of Legends, all channellers were Aes Sedai, male or female. The Black Tower will continue though, Nicola said so. I am prety sure Logain will kill Taim when he gains proof that Taim is impersonating Rand, Egwene's dream, and Elida's fortelling. I believe that after Taim and Elida's fall Logain, prehaps encouraged by Elayne (she realy doesn't like the Black Tower existing in Andor), will move the Black Tower north to Tar Valon into Elida's Palace. Warders will continue to be whom ever the AS want to bond within the restrictions of their Ajah, and Asha'man will continue to bond AS.

[Guest Majsju]

my reasoning - i believe the term WARDER is a corruption from the Age of Legends that has happened because of the Breaking... I think that Warders are just a substitute for the "guardians" ie Aes Sedai therefore it will become a prequisite that Warders will have to be Asha'man and the relations between the towers will shape the future of the world

 

You miss one thing in the translation. Aes Sedai means Servant, not Guardian. Asha'man means Guradian, and that's something that was "invented" in the 3rd Age.

[algspkr]

"my opinion on this is not that rand must die but that LTT must die to allow rand to live... their souls must be separated in someway during the last battle allowing rand to survive... Rand dying is to obvious!! also the idea that maybe Rand and Moridin switch bodies seems kinda lame to me... just my thought"

I doubt that Lews Therin has to die because he already has. He IS dead, and the reason (and I mean THE reason, which was confirmed by Semirhage) that Rand hears Lews Therins voice is that madness creates a link between you and your past life. Obviously Rand isnt full on hardcore insane but the taint affected him as it did any other Ashaman before the Cleansing. Rand is partially insane, but that is enough for him to experience the past life connection thing. So Lews Therins voice is real, but that means that Rand is abit crazy

Semirhage never studied the taint or the madness that came with it. From what she siad it seemed like she was referring to a form of schitzofrenia, or some other natural mental desease. The voice is not there because Rand is mad, but in all probability it will drive him to insanity.

[Luckers]

But what would Semhirage honestly know about that? She was bound along with the DO at the same time as his counterstrike of tainting Saidin. It's more likely that was one of her lies.

 

Semirhage seems to know alot about it--at the very least everything she had said about the LTT effect that we can check has been the truth. She claims the effect occured before the tainting--that every now and again it happened naturally, and we have no reason to doubt her claim since, again, everything she has said so far has been true. Additionally she cites Graendal as a source, and Graendal was the worlds leading expert on diseases of the mind.

 

It seems entirely possible to me that when Lanfear described his knowledge of all things LTT Graendal picked up on what was happening and mentioned it.

 

Moreover, as far as i can tell Semirhage doesn't lie without a reason. There would be no reason for her to lie about any of the stuff we can't verify, and that stuff makes logical sense given what we can... The argument that it will cause dissension seems silly to me. The truth without that extra bit would likely have done more--it'd mean Rand didn't have access to all LTT's knowledge, and would've been hearing a random imagined voice... much more dangerous.

 

No, i dont think we have any reason to either doubt Semirhages knowledge, or her truthfulness.

 

Semirhage never studied the taint or the madness that came with it. From what she siad it seemed like she was referring to a form of schitzofrenia, or some other natural mental desease. The voice is not there because Rand is mad, but in all probability it will drive him to insanity.

 

Firstly, no. What Semirhage describes is not normal schitzofrenia and is what Rand is suffering from. She describes the symptoms perfectly and since she can do that, we have no reason to doubt her claim that it had happened to others, even without the Taint which does not form specific madnesses. Indeed by description what seems to happen is that the Taint has an influence of nuero-transmitors, causing them to misfire and the like... the madnesses describe matched many different causes--too much dopamine, too little serotonin.

 

Secondly insanity is not a quantifiable state. Psychologists define it more by the interference with the normal interactions between the person and other people or things--but then there is the problem of the definition of normality.

 

Schitzofrenia comes in forms almost exactly like Rands... the perception of a mental voice that does not distort the persons understanding of the world, nor stop them functioning as a whole. The problem is this can disolve into full blown paranoid schitzofrenia--and that i suspect is what Semirhage was refering to by the potential decent into terminal madness. If LTT's influence grows stronger then Rand's control as a whole could disolve into a fight between the two.

[kittydesmond]

yeah maybe so, but in RJ's eternal words...its a forsaken...you believe them? (granted he was talkin bout one of the others, but it is fitting)

[Luckers]

Well no, its not really. Semirhage has shown herself to speak the truth many times. She freely admits who she is to Cadsuane and she proudly went to the Dark when confronted by the Hall. Even when she was under disguise as Anath she was still true to herself.

[TheDiceAgain...]

Now, wait a minute, Luckers. While I agree with you that she is telling the truth in this one instance, how can you be true to yourself while masquerading as someone else? Seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me...

[kittydesmond]

Weather she is speaking truth or not, I personally feel the ultimate goal is to plant seeds of doubt in Rand's followers no matter what she is speaking about. Promoting chaos if you will.

[Luckers]

By being true to your inner nature. Which from what we've seen she was.

 

She is a proud, strong willed person who does NOT seem to lie without a reason... i doubt she has a problem with lying if push comes to shove, but without a reason she wont bother.

[Lews Therin Telamon]

have half of you lot even read KoD? Semirhage knew of the madness thing through Graendal i think but she explains the Rand/Lews Therin thing in KoD

[loki redfern]

Perhaps for Rand to win the last battle he has to be able to fight, which he seems not to be able to do very effectively at the moment ( his encounter with Semi). For him to be able to fight properly he will need unimpeded use of the sadin. Therefore LTT needs to die (again) so Rand can get on with his job and save the world etc. And Semi was the foremost healer of the body and would have likely been able to diagnose Rand's condition and her words have the ring of truth about them and she sounds like she has come across occurrences. Also i find interesting is that she said something like "whether the voices are real or not reintegration is always hard". i.e. it is possible to cure and there is the distinct possibility, if there were any doubt that LTT is conscious and "alive" Rand's head, not just a product of schizophrenia. oh and I'm now just waiting for Mat's eight legged horse to appear. Ok i may have been stating the obvious for a while there, but it felt damn good.

[seoman]

Quote:Firstly, no. What Semirhage describes is not normal schitzofrenia and is what Rand is suffering from. She describes the symptoms perfectly and since she can do that, we have no reason to doubt her claim that it had happened to others, even without the Taint which does not form specific madnesses. Indeed by description what seems to happen is that the Taint has an influence of nuero-transmitors, causing them to misfire and the like... the madnesses describe matched many different causes--too much dopamine, too little serotonin.

 

Secondly insanity is not a quantifiable state. Psychologists define it more by the interference with the normal interactions between the person and other people or things--but then there is the problem of the definition of normality.

 

Schitzofrenia comes in forms almost exactly like Rands... the perception of a mental voice that does not distort the persons understanding of the world, nor stop them functioning as a whole. The problem is this can disolve into full blown paranoid schitzofrenia--and that i suspect is what Semirhage was refering to by the potential decent into terminal madness. If LTT's influence grows stronger then Rand's control as a whole could disolve into a fight between the two.

 

Semirhage can not hear LTT as we , the readers, can, she can think as a healer rand has a mental voice, but we know (me at least) LTT is a different personality with his own memories, he is the last owner of rand´s soul, and somehow the barrier between LTT and Rand has dissapiered; so the soul has two personalities but they are separated, they could fight for the control of the body-soul but they still mantains their integrity.

As i see LTT end he was mad for the taint, and maybe rand is going mad for the same reason but again it seems they keep independence.

trying to answer phisically the soul dissease could be in our world, but in RJ world, is known the soul exists and i hardly believe the soul-body connection is trough neurotransmissors

[Luckers]

She seems completely aware of those things. She comments directly on them after all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In a universe where specific souls can be tied to the Wheel and reborn according to prophecy, our definition of sanity and insanity in this universe can't really apply. What Semirhage described as insanity did not seem to be related to Saidin. She say that even Graendal could rarely achieve reintegration ... well, Graendal worked as a healer of mental illnesses that "the One Power and Healing could not touch". And she did this work in the Age of Legends, when Saidin was untainted. I don't think that Rand's insanity is linked in any way to Saidin. Instead, it has to do with being the reincarnation of a soul who failed in his last life, and left it in agony and self loathing. Any connection to that life would then be full of giref and remorse, apparently unconnected to the present reality (ILYENA, MY LOVE! WAAAAAAAAAH) That kind of unremitting presence in one's head would lead inevitably to a disconnection from reality, with manifestations of anger (Rand's temper), self loathing (Rand's mental list of dead women) and who knows what else. And in this case, since Semirhage could use the truth to her own end (ie creating doubt/confusion in Rand and his followers), she had no need to lie.