the Gay Relationships in TWoT

[Builder]

Ok, can you name one so I can get a picture of what you're talking about. I don't see homosexuals as a culture. It's something you are. I can decide to leave the culture that I'm currently in, and join another one. As a homosexual I can't be straight.

[Dark Justice]

I always figured the "pillow friend" to be a comfort thing. (yes I know they were getting on dirty style..)

It doesnt seem to me all the girls with pillow friends were Bi or Gay. They were scared. They were being bossed around. They were being punished. They needed comfort. Not too many men around....

[Luckers]

Ok, can you name one so I can get a picture of what you're talking about. I don't see homosexuals as a culture. It's something you are. I can decide to leave the culture that I'm currently in, and join another one. As a homosexual I can't be straight.

 

There is actually a social culture associated with homosexuality, actually--usually referred to as queer culture--including by sociologists. This should be reguarded as distinct from the state of being homosexual (having same-sex sexual urges).

 

To clarify, consider the sexual based hetereosexual cultures that exist, for instance the incredibly heteronormative culture of the army, or of most modern religions.

 

Cultures usually develop around base natures--belief, race, orientation. A shared nature leads to a homoginasation and subsequent indentification--which is what we name a culture.

 

Essentially if you share something, sooner or later you band together about it.

 

That being said there are many sub-cultures that arn't specifically based in sex that prescribe to permissive sexual interaction. For instance the famed clubber kids culture of New York in the 90's. Or the more recent metero, or indie music scenes. Feminist culture too is stereotypically pro-gay. The liberal left, as a cultural sub-group, usually accepts a wide range of supposedly aberrant behaviours.

[arkinia]

In spite of Moiraine's activities with Suian Moiraine felt at least a little bit of jealousy towards Nynaeve and Lan. This suggests that she isn't gay or is at least bi or sexually open and then we have had her point of view. Sure, Mat could be considered more sexually involved in life, but his points of view are rampant with what he is thinking of women, but then Moiraine's, supposedly, with her sexuality, doesn't give a hint, that at least I didn't pick up on, about her uniqueness.

 

This is sort of weird when most of the cultures, excepting the Aiel and the Sea Folk, have generally the same views on nudity as we (or I do, living in the US, not sure how many cultures these forums host) today which I would think would go hand-in-hand with sexual views, not necessarily sexuality though. But apparently they are so open about it, yet characters are constantly blushing at public nudity, it just seems like a contradiction to me as they are, apparently, so sexually accepting.

 

I think what I'm thinking is if they are so sexually accepting, why do they act the way they do about nudity and why aren't peoples' views made more apparent. I can understand the desire for subtlety and lack of obscenities, but when it suggested so strongly it feels like there is a huge gap in the characterizations.

[Eleint]

Acceptance of bisexuality and homoseuality != lack of cultural mores.  It simply means a different set.  Nowadays sure, nudity is on the fringe in America and so is homosexuality, at least to some.  But that doesn't mean it has to be.  People are really big on accepting current societal mores as the basis of human conditions, and they really aren't.  It's quite possible for a society to be accepting of homosexuality and dislike nudity.  There's nothing inherently conflicting in these two beliefs.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Not necessarly, the Tinkers are a backward sort of people who are into being good and pure.  Its likely that they didn't exactly cotton to the idea of homosexualty.  Since Aram had been taught his whole life that homosexuallity was bad, the repressed his feelings and over compensated by chasing everything in a skirt.  Once he'd left the Tinkers he was finally free to be himself.  The reason he was so into Egwene in EtoW was to hide the fact that it was really Perrin that he was attracted to (LOL)

 

Arguing this simply because I'm feeling pedantic and it's a peeve when people assume contemporary Western values are the only ones out there.  In less than half, and according to many figures, less than a third of historical cultures was homosexuality a major issue.  Sometimes it was even commonly accepted.  Abrahamic religions such as Christianity are known for issues, mostly due to (many think) the body taboos of Judaism which evolved.

 

Basically, Tinkers are not Christians.  There's no reason that they'd find it wrong and in fact Jordan's said that in Randland in general homosexuality is an accepted practice.  Cadsuane was surprised that those two nobles were so afraid to reveal their affair, because it's just not something people care about.

 

 

You have no knowledge of what their beliefs about purity are--and nothing to suggest that homosexuality is precluded in that. Indeed, given they dance the sa'sara I'd say that have a fairly free concept of sexuality.

 

Your mistake seems to be in assuming that a 'backward' folk wanting to be 'good and pure' would ascribed to the christian tennants to the point. Christian ideology does not exist within this world, and based on the casual disreguard most characters have to homosexuality I'd say the cultural perception of it is far from negative.

 

 

Easy there Frik, you too Frak,  this was meant as a joke hence the big LOL at the end.  I fully realize that we don't know enough about the Tinkers to conclude that they are puritans.  Please pay attention to the LOLs.  They are very important in computer based communication.

[Builder]

Ok, can you name one so I can get a picture of what you're talking about. I don't see homosexuals as a culture. It's something you are. I can decide to leave the culture that I'm currently in, and join another one. As a homosexual I can't be straight.

 

There is actually a social culture associated with homosexuality, actually--usually referred to as queer culture--including by sociologists. This should be reguarded as distinct from the state of being homosexual (having same-sex sexual urges).

 

To clarify, consider the sexual based hetereosexual cultures that exist, for instance the incredibly heteronormative culture of the army, or of most modern religions.

 

Cultures usually develop around base natures--belief, race, orientation. A shared nature leads to a homoginasation and subsequent indentification--which is what we name a culture.

 

Essentially if you share something, sooner or later you band together about it.

 

That being said there are many sub-cultures that arn't specifically based in sex that prescribe to permissive sexual interaction. For instance the famed clubber kids culture of New York in the 90's. Or the more recent metero, or indie music scenes. Feminist culture too is stereotypically pro-gay. The liberal left, as a cultural sub-group, usually accepts a wide range of supposedly aberrant behaviours.

 

Thanks for clearing that up Luckers. I'll try to have a more open mind when reading the series.

[Mr Ares]

Finally, I feel it is necessary to apologize to anyone I might have offended or made feel uncomfortable with the topic.

Why would anyone be offended or made uncomfortable by this topic? And if they are, why are you apologising?

 

RJ and BS' date='(from what I've heard) aren't very sexually explicit and leave more to the imagination than other fantsy writers like Martin.[/quote']I can think of one gay relationship in ASoIaF that was subtle enough for a lot of people to miss. I think it's pretty hard to miss in The Steel Remains, though.

[Sirayn]

Wow what sub-culture are you part of that doesn't prohibit sex of the same gender? As far as I know I don't know any culture who doesn't have anything against homosexuality...

 

Ok, can you name one so I can get a picture of what you're talking about. I don't see homosexuals as a culture. It's something you are. I can decide to leave the culture that I'm currently in, and join another one. As a homosexual I can't be straight.

 

Story time. Please forgive the /threadjack.

 

When I was in my teens I came out as bisexual to my family, who are so left-wing and liberal they occasionally read the Guardian, and thus didn't care. Problem was that I lived in a small town in a Conservative-voting rural county in which being known to be different and other wouldn't be all that popular. So I kept my mouth shut in public. (I can't imagine how much harder it must be for homosexuals to hide their sexuality - at least I can join in with admiring the opposite sex.)

 

Then I moved out to attend a huge urban university where the demographic is overwhelmingly young and politically liberal. The first society I joined was the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender society, and that's where I made my core group of friends at university. When I joined a local SFF-skewed writing group I was surprised to discover that nearly all of them were non-heterosexual too. (Insert speculation about writers and SFF geeks identifying with the outcast here.)

 

So my housemates are bisexual. My writer friends are bisexual or gay. I belong to societies and organisations specifically geared toward the LGBT society. (When someone first asked me if I had a boyfriend, girlfriend, both or neither, I was thrilled.) My university is an extremely tolerant environment. So is my family - my mother keeps asking me when I'll bring a girl home for dinner.

 

What's fascinating about this subculture is what else everyone has in common. They're all well-educated, high-achieving, middle-class liberals. They're mostly secular. They're either non-heterosexual or friends and family of non-heterosexuals. They enjoy SFF and books and general geekiness. And they're not prescriptive in the least about sexuality.

 

It's a good way to live.

[Builder]

Wow, that sounds like an awesome university! I'll rather PM you instead of derailing the thread more ;)

[arkinia]

I put in the apology because I wasn't sure how people would take the topic, you know covering my ass.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its OK, arkinia, the world needs some nice people to offset folks like me and Comrade Monthu (Mr Ares).

 

Jeez, its getting harder not to repeat myself with those names.

[arkinia]

;D

[water_seeker]

I figure at some point Rand's women are going to explore each other a little more.  Considering what they feel through the bond when Rand is with one of them getting physical with each other may work as a better outlet than getting drunk did.

[arkinia]

I figure at some point Rand's women are going to explore each other a little more.  Considering what they feel through the bond when Rand is with one of them getting physical with each other may work as a better outlet than getting drunk did.

That seems like a valid conclusion. I foresee a chapter or two in AMoL highlighting this.

[Roxinos]

...

 

I...I just don't know what to say to that. But...the thought makes me happy.

[Mr Ares]

I put in the apology because I wasn't sure how people would take the topic, you know covering my ass.

But by apologising, you're admitting you were wrong to start this topic. Why would you think it was wrong to say "Hey, I think there are gay people in this series"?

 

...

 

I...I just don't know what to say to that.

Try "I'll be in my bunk", because you can never go wrong with a Firefly quote.

[CUBAREY]

In spite of Moiraine's activities with Suian Moiraine felt at least a little bit of jealousy towards Nynaeve and Lan. This suggests that she isn't gay or is at least bi or sexually open and then we have had her point of view. Sure, Mat could be considered more sexually involved in life, but his points of view are rampant with what he is thinking of women, but then Moiraine's, supposedly, with her sexuality, doesn't give a hint, that at least I didn't pick up on, about her uniqueness.

 

This is sort of weird when most of the cultures, excepting the Aiel and the Sea Folk, have generally the same views on nudity as we (or I do, living in the US, not sure how many cultures these forums host) today which I would think would go hand-in-hand with sexual views, not necessarily sexuality though. But apparently they are so open about it, yet characters are constantly blushing at public nudity, it just seems like a contradiction to me as they are, apparently, so sexually accepting.

 

I think what I'm thinking is if they are so sexually accepting, why do they act the way they do about nudity and why aren't peoples' views made more apparent. I can understand the desire for subtlety and lack of obscenities, but when it suggested so strongly it feels like there is a huge gap in the characterizations.

 

I would explain it this way. Our Societies' objections to homosexuality and other sexual deviancies (deviancy in the statistical sense of being outside the statistical norm, I not making a value judgment) is mostly based on religous tabboos. The Randlanders have no "religion", thus while they may view certain practices as odd they would not necessarily object to them on moral grounds. SO a Two Rivers Matron might be shocked by a homosexual relationship but probably only to the same extent that she would be shocked at the Aiel having more then one wife, or even Rand and Min's relationship (as it is outside of marriage). The Cairhernen would object to any public show of sexuality (except on their Feast days) since they are puritanical in the sense that all sexual matters should be kept within private doors. Revealing a Lesbian sexual relationship between two married women would be a scandel in Cairhern and the Sea people not be cause of the sex of the choosen partner but because such a relationship would be viewed in both societies as denigrating an existing relationship and thus harmful to the overall social order.

[arkinia]

I put in the apology because I wasn't sure how people would take the topic, you know covering my ass.

But by apologising, you're admitting you were wrong to start this topic. Why would you think it was wrong to say "Hey, I think there are gay people in this series"?

Starting the topic wasn't wrong and I wasn't apologizing for that. I was apologizing for the chance that I might have offended someone as you can't say that nobody at all finds the material offensive (however quirky that might be). There was a chance in my opinion. Offending your friends is unacceptable as Faile teaches us in CoT.

 

I wasn't trying to make you feel vulnerable  ;)

[Rinkai]

I always thought RJ was a little bit of a horn dog. Not to offend his memory, he was a great Author.

 

but look at all the male fantasies here:

 

-Shenariens/ Aiel take coed nude baths.

-Seanchan cup bearers (the most beautiful young women in very shear robes.)

-The white tower seems to be brimming full with, at the very, least bi-curious girls and women.

-the sea folke, who sound pretty sexy when not being bitchy, walk around topless on their ships.

-I'm not into this kind of thing, but young ladies seem to get spanked A LOT.

-The Aiel are allowed to be polygamists at the DEMAND of the women.

-Some of the women seem pretty foreword. Tylin to Mat post sex: If that is what being Ta'averen means, you must be very popular with the ladies. Lets face it, shes saying that Mat is well endowed.

-Some of the ter'angreal seem a little questionable also. I don't remember which book, but Elayne finds an arm length rod that is rounded at one end. It is sounds like its made of rubber or plastic. She picks it up and remembers feeling warm....then wakes up a while later. Everyone is laughing at her and everyone is too embarrassed to tell her what she did that she can't remember. Ok guys, you do the math. This sounds like the best ter'angreal ever.

-Plus all the relationships that are well documented, the women know what they want and take it. Nyn, Faile, Min, Elayne, even Avi at one point.

 

Im sure there is more if you look for it. But here is the obvious stuff. Maybe I am the horn dog and interpreted it wrong. Still, Randland sounds more fun than here.

[Shard]

I always thought RJ was a little bit of a horn dog. Not to offend his memory, he was a great Author.

 

but look at all the male fantasies here:

 

-Shenariens/ Aiel take coed nude baths.

 

Roman's did as well, they're just utilitarian, they aren't getting it on during the baths.

 

-Seanchan cup bearers (the most beautiful young women in very shear robes.)

 

Men are cup bearers as well.

 

-The white tower seems to be brimming full with, at the very, least bi-curious girls and women.

 

It's very subtle that some miss this on the first read, it's never that explicit either. Well I think thew term "brimming full" is over shooting the number at least.

 

-the sea folke, who sound pretty sexy when not being bitchy, walk around topless on their ships.

 

I view this the same way as tribal women walking around without any thing on top. They don't see the need for it, I'm sure if any man is staring them like that won't be taken lightly.

 

-The Aiel are allowed to be polygamists at the DEMAND of the women.

 

-Some of the women seem pretty foreword. Tylin to Mat post sex: If that is what being Ta'averen means, you must be very popular with the ladies. Lets face it, shes saying that Mat is well endowed.

 

That's a female dominated society for ya.

 

-Some of the ter'angreal seem a little questionable also. I don't remember which book, but Elayne finds an arm length rod that is rounded at one end. It is sounds like its made of rubber or plastic. She picks it up and remembers feeling warm....then wakes up a while later. Everyone is laughing at her and everyone is too embarrassed to tell her what she did that she can't remember. Ok guys, you do the math. This sounds like the best ter'angreal ever.

 

This isn't what you think it is and I know I thought it was that as well at one point. I believe I read an answer to this somewhere, though the way it was described in the book *shakes head*

-Plus all the relationships that are well documented, the women know what they want and take it. Nyn, Faile, Min, Elayne, even Avi at one point.

 

Im sure there is more if you look for it. But here is the obvious stuff. Maybe I am the horn dog and interpreted it wrong. Still, Randland sounds more fun than here.

 

Well sure they have magic.

 

Overall I do think you have a point anyways this society doesn't seem to have as much a problem with expressing sex as does our own world. Though the male characters do seem to blush alot don't they?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sex just happens to be fairly prevalent in every human society in history.  If Augustine of Hippo hadn't tied it philosophically to original sin, this wouldn't seem odd.

[Roxinos]

Try "I'll be in my bunk", because you can never go wrong with a Firefly quote.

 

Here, here!

[Mr Ares]

I put in the apology because I wasn't sure how people would take the topic, you know covering my ass.

But by apologising, you're admitting you were wrong to start this topic. Why would you think it was wrong to say "Hey, I think there are gay people in this series"?

Starting the topic wasn't wrong and I wasn't apologizing for that. I was apologizing for the chance that I might have offended someone as you can't say that nobody at all finds the material offensive (however quirky that might be). There was a chance in my opinion. Offending your friends is unacceptable as Faile teaches us in CoT.

 

I wasn't trying to make you feel vulnerable  ;)

Do you really want to be friends with bigots? Because those are the sorts of people who'd be offended by you pointing out that there is homosexuality in this series. Never apologise pre-emptively. If someone is offended, and you think they have good grounds to be, than you admit you were wrong, not before. By apologising, you were admitting that you were wrong to potentially cause offence by pointing out that something that is in the series is in the series - that you were wrong to start this thread.

[Peat]

One of the Reds talks in her PoV about a pillowfriend relationship that ended with attaining the shawl; she far preferred men, but the other was keen to carry it on.  But there seems to be an implication that pillowfriend relationships end when being a novice/accepted ends.

 

As for there being no hints of it in Moraine's thoughts when she meets Siuan - I think its part that, part that Moraine is a highly disciplined woman involved in something she cannot get wrong. Don't forget the pair have been trying to distance themselves in public in every way they can. In those circumstances, I don't find it surprising that it passes neither's minds.