has egwene done the nasty?

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Almost forgot.. Tylin made sure Mat couldn't walk away at any time. She gave him funny looking clothes and hid his dice so he wouldn't be able to afford food and clothing to support himself, let alone his men. That way he would have to return to the palace at the end of the day.

 

Just one small problem with that, hiding his dice wasn't that important.  He hardly ever used his own dice in any case, and the only time I can recall him doing so in Ebou Dar is when he diced for forfeits with Tylin, and that may have been when she took them away.  I don't recall if she ever actually did, but that would have been when if so.

[Builder]

Can anyone explain to me how a woman can rape a man? No one has to actually explain it if it's too long to explain. Just post a link please.

[Mr Ares]

Can anyone explain to me how a woman can rape a man? No one has to actually explain it if it's too long to explain. Just post a link please.

Man says no, woman has sex with him anyway.

[Luckers]

I believe that Mat could have walked away at any point. I also believe that Mat began to enjoy himself.

 

Therefore, I do not believe it was rape.

 

She used her position to force him to commit an act that he directly stated his did not want to do. That he could have walked away is iffy--she directly restricted his movements and freedoms--but even were it the case it doesn't change what she did. There are many cases when a rape victim could have walked away if they'd been able to bring themselves to realise it--these cases involve a victim who through various social presures feel the need to remain where they are--the daughter not accussing the father because she can't destroy her family.

 

Mat could have walked away--but he also couldn't. He had responsibilities to the wonder girls. He could have done it, but to do it would have required a complete betrayal of everything he was. That doesn't make Tylin right in her actions.

 

As for coming to enjoy it? That too occurs with victims of repeated rape. Doesn't change the fact that she forced him into sex, and in doing so caused him significant emotional distress. That's rape. Simple as.

 

Can anyone explain to me how a woman can rape a man? No one has to actually explain it if it's too long to explain. Just post a link please.

 

Do you mean in the practical sense? Physical excitement doesn't suggest participation. There are caes cases of women having orgasms during rape, and cases of men ejaculating whilst being forcibly sodomized. It's even been used at times during rape trials--and one and all its been shot down. Physical response to stimulation does not mean the person wanted that stimulation--nor that experiencing that stimulation was not emotionally demaging.

 

Indeed i rather imagine that responding to a rapist in that way would make things worse--raise questions of whether you 'asked' for it.

 

Tylin used her position to force herself on Mat. Mat, as a man, was bound by certain social presures into responding--that was what Tylin relied on. Yet clearly it is shown within the text that this both causes Mat distress, and that he tried intentionally to stop it. She did not allow that.

 

Due to those social presures Mat's options were limited. He couldn't run, couldn't cry rape--because, as you asked so pertinantly, how can a woman rape a man. To make that claim would have completely demasculated him. So what other option was there but to allow it?

 

Doesn't change a thing in what occurred. And were this in reverse--had a King used servants to trap a woman, had he not listened to her when she said no, had he used a knife to intimidate her, we would not be having this argument.

[Casco]

I apologize if anything I say is too much.  I'm trying to make it as non-explicit as possible, but since the discussion is about rape, it is possible I will unintentionally cross a line.  If I do so I am sorry, and feel free to delete this post.

 

Now, in regards to rape, it's not as clear cut as it might look at first glance.  Many people (maybe most), including myself, view rape as a forced sexual encounter.  However, that is not necessarily the case.  Many states (I couldn't tell you how many) require the victim to be the one who is penetrated for it to be a rape, including my state of Missouri.  There are a couple of reasons for this.  Studies in sexual psychology have shown that being the one that is penetrated requires a much greater amount of emotional vulnerability, and thus cause much greater feelings of violation in the case of a forced sexual encounter.  Also, there is a school of thought that since certain things must occur for the normal male/female encounter to be possible, the man can never truly be considered unwilling, even if coerced into the situation using force or the threat of force.  Now I pretty much reject this school of thought, seeing how any adolescent male can tell you that certain things occurring have no requirement of desire or even mental stimulation.  Still, these two things both lead to many laws requiring rape to be against a woman.  As far as comparable actions occurring to a male are concerned, those are normally covered under different laws.  This is so wide ranging, that the first definition of "rape" on dictionary.com is "1. the unlawful compelling of a woman through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse."

Strange...the rape laws agains woman starting to get pretty good, but the laws for males who get rapes still is stoneage level of thinking.

First of all, most men dont have the brain between the legs ( i think thats pretty mutch proved by now)but to say that a man who get an erection cant be unwilling is just...so stoneage. Its still the brain in his head who decides if he is willing or not. mat is 21 years old ill think, he is a walking hormonebomb. He cant controle his body (lower parts) in the same way a more mature, older man can. In that age it can be very .. hard (bad word i know) to have total controle and to get the right reactions from different things he sees and feels (if it includes females anyway). Even if the brain screeems out "No i dont want this!" He will still get an erection from the feelings and what he sees. This is still forcing a man to have sex against his will. He is able to have sex yes..but he dont want to.

 

This was no remark on your post though, just on the thing i did italicized there.

[Serenla]

It wasn't rape.  Mat never says no, on her first attempt, when she sits in his lap, he gives her some lame excuses as to why he can't but never says he doesn't want to.  When she finally accomplishes her "task", he tells her he doesn't have time, asks her what she's doing, and tells her she can't; he nevers says no or that he doesn't want to.  On her first try, he thinks about stopping her but gets distracted by her kissing him and doesn't even notice that she undid his pants.  After she suceeds, he pouts.  If anyone was raped, I don't think that they would smoke, pout and then continue with their plans.  Mat was opposed to the idea of having a relationship with a noble and being chased by a woman, not the actual act. Also, during said act, Tylin's knife was in the bedpost.  He could have left at anytime after she released the knife. And this is Mat we are talking about, he planned how many grand escapes?  He has fought how many people?  He would have and could have rationalized stopping her and leaving the palace if he wanted to.  He probably could have stopped her by telling her that he didn't want to, but he never said that.

 

Rape is a traumatic experience that can happen to anyone male or female.  It leaves a victim psychologically damaged.  To call Mat's experience with Tylin rape, is to trivialize the suffering of rape victims.  They don't roll over and pout and smoke while mildly annoyed.

 

[Graendals favourite]

And Mat was not affected by what Tylin did to him?

[Serenla]

And Mat was not affected by what Tylin did to him?

 

He shows no signs of depression or being suicidal.  His behavior doesn't become eradic or self destructive.  He does seem to have matured but that is not a sign of having been traumatized.  He was unable to leave the bed for months after the building fell on him.  He had a lot of time to think.  A lot of time to see how much people depend while he couldn't help them.  A lot of time to see what Tylin was willing to do for her people.  His newfound maturity is most likely from observing Tylin not being traumatized by her.

[Graendals favourite]

Well, I disagree, though rather in the spirit that any action has consequences. Too little time has passed to see if Tylin had adverse effects in Mat, and of course the times in Wheel of Time are any way worse than ours.

 

Yet the fact was, just as many maid servants in any number of our own history, Mat was abused.

 

I do understand the argument that the word rape should not be deflated, the same as the word murder shouldn't. Yet it is equally clear the western world (in general)has some things very wrong in their morals.

[Casco]

Well, I disagree, though rather in the spirit that any action has consequences. Too little time has passed to see if Tylin had adverse effects in Mat, and of course the times in Wheel of Time are any way worse than ours.

 

Yet the fact was, just as many maid servants in any number of our own history, Mat was abused.

 

I do understand the argument that the word rape should not be deflated, the same as the word murder shouldn't. Yet it is equally clear the western world (in general)has some things very wrong in their morals.

Agree. A "no" or "i cant" or "i wont" is allways clear to me. Ok, i can argue about it and try to convince her , but in no way i can even imagening forcing sex on anybody. Thats a crime. At least for me who is a man. it should work just the same the oposite way. No matter what the reason are...if the other one dont want it, or cant, its a no go, a clear NO.

 

Infact, i get a little offended as a man reading Serendlas answers.. as long as the victim dont get hurt, its ok to have sex with them :O dont mind if they cant or dont want it.

[Gracel]

But we should all be able to agree that Tylin physically forced herself onto Mat, using threats of violence and the power of her position, at least at the beginning.  This was an immoral thing to do.  Can we all at least agree to that?

 

Have you spent much time reading these forums? We can't even agree on the definition of the word "sent," let alone a word as subjective as "rape."

 

I do however appreciate your larger point, that the word has many definitions from many different points of view. I thought Tylin's actions were disgusting. Whether or not she physically raped Mat, she used her power to coerce him into something he didn't want. I think the complexity of the situation is a testament to Jordan's power as a writer, although I did think that Mat's response was too mild. As to him growing to have feelings for her and remembering her fondly, well, that is often a perverse effect of abuse. That's why many in domestic violence situations have such as hard time escaping--they grow emotionally attached to the abuser.

[Casco]

We have to remember (defending mat) he wasnt use to this sort of behaviour from a woman, infact he did say (or think) it was unatural. He was born in the two rivers...the woman did have the power there but was very straight with sex. In Mats mind a woman couldnt behave as she did...it was impossible. Ill bet he was "very" chocked and simply didnt know what to do the first times. All he could think of was staying out of her way.

He couldnt get help from anyone...the whole city did think this was ok and pretty fun. His friends would have boxed his eares and blame him for it, and when they realise it was the truth they would just laugh at him (as NY and Eleyne did later).

 

He was in a no win situation..and sexual offended.

[Serenla]

 

Infact, i get a little offended as a man reading Serendlas answers.. as long as the victim dont get hurt, its ok to have sex with them :O dont mind if they cant or dont want it.

 

I am sorry if you are offended by my comments that was not my intention.  My point is not that people can do whatever they want, it is that Mat was fully able to choose to leave had he really wanted to.  And also that rape victims are not annoyed at the inconvience and shocked, they are devestated, degrated, and violated.  I have known rape victims and their behavior after the rape is self destructive, they change drastically.

 

The fact that it wasn't rape does not mean that it was a nice or moral way to behave.  But Mat liked Tylin.  Not stockholm syndrom he actually got to know her and grew to respect her.  Nobody would like someone after they raped them. 

 

Well, I disagree, though rather in the spirit that any action has consequences. Too little time has passed to see if Tylin had adverse effects in Mat, and of course the times in Wheel of Time are any way worse than ours.

 

Yet the fact was, just as many maid servants in any number of our own history, Mat was abused.

 

I do understand the argument that the word rape should not be deflated, the same as the word murder shouldn't. Yet it is equally clear the western world (in general)has some things very wrong in their morals.

As for time constraints, Mat have time to heal after a building collapsed on him, I think that takes months at least.  That is plenty of time.

 

I also want to point out again that Mat never said no or that he didn't want to.  He said she couldn't and made lame excuses but never actually said no.

[MikeRiley]

You don't have to say no for it to be against your will. It's also considered rape if you use your power (authority) to get your way with the person, as well as having sex with them when they are not of sound mind (we see this mostly with drugged people or drunks). Mat was there for months but he could barely walk for a lot of it. His clothes were hidden, he had no money, no dice. He had his people to watch out for. He had plans he was making to escape as soon as his hip healed enough. Then he got stuck with some Aes Sedai he had to help out.

 

I recall him going down to the docks once to see about getting a ship and he was told no, but I could be mixing this up with his Tar Valon experience.

[Serenla]

You don't have to say no for it to be against your will. It's also considered rape if you use your power (authority) to get your way with the person, as well as having sex with them when they are not of sound mind (we see this mostly with drugged people or drunks). Mat was there for months but he could barely walk for a lot of it. His clothes were hidden, he had no money, no dice. He had his people to watch out for. He had plans he was making to escape as soon as his hip healed enough. Then he got stuck with some Aes Sedai he had to help out.

 

I recall him going down to the docks once to see about getting a ship and he was told no, but I could be mixing this up with his Tar Valon experience.

This is Mat we are talking about.  He respects no authority.  He could have told Thom to take his people and then slipped out of the palace in the night.  He was able to avoid Moiraine and all her spies.  As for clothes and money, he got them easily enough when he told his friends to get them.  And when he straight up told Tylin he was leaving she even let him/helped him tie her up.

 

Granted he would have and did find reasons to stay until he was in a position to meet Tuon because of his ta'veren twisting of fate.  But the most he tried was to check out getting a boat.  In a very obvious way and getting caught. 

[MikeRiley]

It's not a matter of not respecting authority, she was the queen and she could have ordered him returned to the palace or executed, and she made it pretty clear (to him) that she was ready to use her knife on him.

 

He did get his clothes easy enough - after his servant found them hidden in a box with Beslan's toys. That took some time, itself. He had them smuggle the clothes out when Tuon wasn't around. He did get his dice back, if she ever succeeded in taking them, I can't recall. By the time he had gold enough to support all those people following him (and he didn't have that much for a while) he had other obligations in the palace.

 

Don't forget he needed horses and in Seanchan Ebou Dar, licenses for them were rare. That was a big part of escaping. Tylin was one of the blood after Tuon showed up and he didn't want to risk the Seanchan reporting to her if he was to take a boat. He even noted that they would easily recognize him in his clothes she dressed him in (this before he got his clothes back).

 

Either way you look at it though, he did try to leave her. He wasn't sitting there for the fun of it when he had his Band running around, Egwene to save and Elayne to re-find and bring back to Caemlyn.

[benr]

I have to kind of agree with some of Serenla's points, here.  It always seemed to me that Mat's major objection was that HE should be the pursuer, not the woman.  The game wasn't being played by his rules anymore.  To be fair, though - Mat never forced his affections on anyone; if they were game, he was in.  If they didn't want him, he was out.

[ROB_88]

i think that the knife at the very beginning is enough to call it rape, she didn't puncture a lung with it, but the sheer presence of it could shock anyone at that time

[Serenla]

It's not a matter of not respecting authority, she was the queen and she could have ordered him returned to the palace or executed, and she made it pretty clear (to him) that she was ready to use her knife on him.

 

He did get his clothes easy enough - after his servant found them hidden in a box with Beslan's toys. That took some time, itself. He had them smuggle the clothes out when Tuon wasn't around. He did get his dice back, if she ever succeeded in taking them, I can't recall. By the time he had gold enough to support all those people following him (and he didn't have that much for a while) he had other obligations in the palace.

 

Don't forget he needed horses and in Seanchan Ebou Dar, licenses for them were rare. That was a big part of escaping. Tylin was one of the blood after Tuon showed up and he didn't want to risk the Seanchan reporting to her if he was to take a boat. He even noted that they would easily recognize him in his clothes she dressed him in (this before he got his clothes back).

 

Either way you look at it though, he did try to leave her. He wasn't sitting there for the fun of it when he had his Band running around, Egwene to save and Elayne to re-find and bring back to Caemlyn.

Clothes are not that difficult to obtain, he could have borrowed enough from Thom or Juilin or Vanin.  Dice are also easily obtained.  And Mat hasn't had trouble getting money since the middle of Eye of the World.  As for horses, I'm sure Vanin could have aquired a few once they were outside the city...

 

No, he wasn't sitting around for the fun of it.  It was like leaving the Stone, he couldn't find an important enough reason to do so until the Pattern was ready for him to.

 

 

i think that the knife at the very beginning is enough to call it rape, she didn't puncture a lung with it, but the sheer presence of it could shock anyone at that time

After she stabbed it into the bedpost, he could have left. 

 

To be fair, yes Tylin was a sexual predator, but she was not a rapist. 

[MikeRiley]

What about the time when Mat was walking through the palace and Tylin's servants set upon him and dragged him up to her bed? I believe he was tied down for that one.

[Serenla]

By then Mat had diced with Tylin for "forfeits" of his own.  (The reason why she took his dice.)  They have moved on to adult bed games, some of which Mat was the aggressor.  Mat's problem with this is that he wants to be the aggressor and he doesn't want his relationship with the queen to be public knowledge.  He is more annoyed with the waste of time than anything else. 

[Gentled Ben]

I find this hard to believe; you sound like a professional witness for the defense in rape cases. He did not say the exact word "no." If it was important enough to him (ie, betraying his friends and breaking his word to Teslyn), he could have ran away. He was not suicidal afterwards, so it isn't really rape, just "not nice or moral." He did it consensually once or twice by trying to make a game of it and trying to at least pretend to himself that he had some sort of dignity, choice, and empowerment in the relationship, so that makes all further encounters consensual, even if it requires that he be physically subdued by several others and tied down in order for the act to take place.  :o

It is this exact type of apology for rape that makes rape trials traumatic for victims and allows so many rapists to go free.

 

Edited because I took this argument further and debated a point that I now see was not originally brought up by Serenla, so I deleted the other points I made.

[Serenla]

I find this hard to believe; you sound like a professional witness for the defense in rape cases. He did not say the exact word "no." If it was important enough to him (ie, betraying his friends and breaking his word to Teslyn), he could have ran away. He was not suicidal afterwards, so it isn't really rape, just "not nice or moral." He did it consensually once or twice by trying to make a game of it and trying to at least pretend to himself that he had some sort of dignity, choice, and empowerment in the relationship, so that makes all further encounters consensual, even if it requires that he be physically subdued by several others and tied down in order for the act to take place.  :o

 

It is this exact type of apology for rape that makes rape trials traumatic for victims and allows so many rapists to go free. That he was not suicidal afterwards does not mean he wasn't raped, and I still fail to see how, in spite of all your apologies for Tylin, she stands as an example of Mat liking nobility, which is why you brought her up in the first place. What is your reasoning? That since he survived her sexual abuse largely intact, then he must enjoy having sex with nobles?

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying that rape is a horrendous act that drastically alters the victims life.  And that calling what Tylin did to Mat rape, makes it seem less so. 

 

How would Mat leaving be a betrayal of his friends?  They were staying with him, he told them to leave repeatedly and offered them money to do so.  As for Teslyn, he was there for months before he even knew Teslyn was in the Palace.

 

Mat specifically says he liked her after he found out she was dead. 

 

And NO WHERE have I appologized for Tylin's actions.  I even called her a sexual predator.  My problem is that there is no degree to which a person can be raped.  To equate the first time they did it (where he could have left at anytime after she stabbed the bedpost) to a situtation where male or female the person has absolutely no choice (ie. captured and overpowered by superior forces)is to trivialize the latter.  IMO a rapist should be taken outside and shot; Tylin should only be put in chains for a while.  She used underhanded tactics to get him to agree to sleep with her but that is not the same as rape.

[Shard]

We should re-name this thread "Did Tylin rape Mat?"

[MikeRiley]

No, that is not what I am saying.  I am saying that rape is a horrendous act that drastically alters the victims life.  And that calling what Tylin did to Mat rape, makes it seem less so. 

 

So you're saying if a guy goes out and forces his way with a little girl, it's not rape if she wasn't traumatized by it? Rape is rape. If they don't have a choice in the matter and don't want to do it, there's no two ways about it, no matter the outcome, it's rape.