Regaining Malkier

[Dark Justice]

now you are presuming min viewes the past and not the future...

[Matrim DeLaneous]

now you are presuming min viewes the past and not the future...

 

Not I... the aforementioned was cited excerpt from WOT FAQ's. 

[Dark Justice]

i still dont buy it. How can they know? Half of the time Min herself doesnt undertand what she is seing.

And why all of a sudden would she see the past, when that is not what she does.

[DemandredFO]

Alderthal, just so you are aware you might get some grief about Lan starting TG.  There's a whole big loooong thread about whether lan will reach Tarwin's Gap to fight the Trollocs.  I think the consensus was no; it had to do with timing and the fact that there will most likely be 2 million trollocs and Lan will have at most 200,000.

[Nightstrike]

Tough call. Many ifs and buts. Is it to be taken literally or is it some symbolism? RJ said Min only saw the future, but I think there's still room for different interpretations.

[Dark Justice]

well. Since RJ is god in WoT, then we can take it for granted.

[Casco]

Tough call. Many ifs and buts. Is it to be taken literally or is it some symbolism? RJ said Min only saw the future, but I think there's still room for different interpretations.

Well, if RJ did say that Min only saw the future (as we can understand from the books anyway) we know that the baby isnt Lan. But the baby holds the sword in the cradle, with the broken 7 towers. This is a symbol for something. I realy hope its Lans son, and Malkier is rebuilded again :)

[Dark Justice]

Does hhve any idea where RJ said so? I just wanna see it, and the context.

[Nightstrike]

Dragoncon '05 reports (copied from wotmania):

 

Min

 

Q7: Are Min's visions about the past or the future?

 

RJ: They are about the future.

 

Q8: The auras that Min sees, would they ever show the person’s past or other elements that are simply unique to that person?

 

RJ: No, it is the future.

[Dark Justice]

ok. thats pretty clear then.

 

[mb]

There is no time for Lan to become a king before TG, and no time for him to be a father (ok, Nynaeve and Lan "training" alot to have babies, but 9 months is still 9 months :) ) and Nynaeve cant afford to have a child now, the power will be to unstable to use. Rand need her for TG, and she will not be pregnant before TG is over (at least i hope not).

 

Nothing says Nynaeve has to be at Tarmon Gai'don.  If you are thinking about the female Choedan Kal, that was destroyed during the Cleansing; I am not sure if there is time enough for any channeler to remake it and its access key.

 

[Mr Ares]

As to the question of people, however, there is always The Return. Sure, they won't be quality Malikier stock, but they are people who will need a place to call home.

So it won't be Malkier. It will be a Seanchan colony, ruled by the Empress, with Seanchan customs.

 

It has been 40 years. Of those who remember Malkier, how many will be willing to leave their lives of the past 40 years to start completely new ones? Of those who don't, how many will leave their homelands in favour of a broken ruin? Malkier is dead. There is only one Malkieri. They may avenge Malkier, but resurrecting it is a very different proposition.

[Casco]

You might be right Mr.Ares, but still.. a nation isnt made of land, its made by people. The 40 years forced the Malkier people to flee the land, but we have seen over and over again that if Lan call for them, they will fight for him. Infact, they WANT him to pick up the golden crain and start the war against the shadow.

The only one who did stop this was Lan himself. The people wanted it, but Lan himself didnt want any other to ride with him.

Now he did promise to take anyone who wants with him, and there will be ALOT. They will follow a born to be King, fight in his land against the shadow, i think there will be a good ground for Malkier to start over again.

[CUBAREY]

It has been 40 years. Of those who remember Malkier, how many will be willing to leave their lives of the past 40 years to start completely new ones? Of those who don't, how many will leave their homelands in favour of a broken ruin?

 

If this were true in our own world there would be no state of Isreal or a longing by many Palestinean refugees to "Return" to a Palestinean state. These are just the two most obvious cases where a displaced "nation" has wanted to reconstitute their "homeland", there are many more cases. So while your point has merit it is not dispositive.

[Winterwinds]

You will find, that no matter how much time has passed since a nation has fallen, that as long as there are people who remember it, who can trace their heritage from that nation, they will always strive to reclaim it if there is a leader to lead them there.

 

If the banner is flown, they will come and fight, and not just the soldiers, the citizens will come too, and once they are there, why leave?

[Alderthal]

As to the question of people, however, there is always The Return. Sure, they won't be quality Malikier stock, but they are people who will need a place to call home.

So it won't be Malkier. It will be a Seanchan colony, ruled by the Empress, with Seanchan customs.

 

It has been 40 years. Of those who remember Malkier, how many will be willing to leave their lives of the past 40 years to start completely new ones? Of those who don't, how many will leave their homelands in favour of a broken ruin? Malkier is dead. There is only one Malkieri. They may avenge Malkier, but resurrecting it is a very different proposition.

 

I think Malkier and the golden crane are sort of like hmm, a Crusade. It's a sore memory for all Borderlanders, and is an extremely powerful name. So when the golden banner is lifted, people will flock to Malkier's name, even if they aren't Malkieri. Similar to a Crusade, many nations would then assist in regaining lost Malkier.

[Thor]

i don't really want malkier to come back to life.  that's just..i don't know, feels weird.

 

you might argue that if aragorn could become king again, then why can't lan also.  but the Numenor people never lost all of their land, they still retained a foothold (gondor and rohan), whereas the whole of malkier is dead dead dead.

[Winterwinds]

The Numenor were in the same problem as Malkier, they lost their foothold and married into other nations, thus there are no Numenor's just the decendants of them, unless you count the rangers who are in all respects the last of the Numenor's.

 

But, there are still Malkier people, 40 years may be a long time, but the memories of those who still followed the old ways are long. On that note. It may be like a crusade, but in the end I think they may win and reclaim the old kingdom.

 

<my 5 cents>

[MikeRiley]

The Malkieri had a lot of pride, all those who remember it would come and their kids would too. I can see a grizzled old warrior telling his son about Malkieri ways while teaching him the sword.. but I don't believe it would be the same Malkier even if a nation rose up on that spot.

[Mr Ares]

You might be right Mr Ares, but still.. a nation isnt made of land, its made by people.

Aan'allein. The man who is an entire people. That was my point. There are no people. There is only one Malkieri left. There are others, who remember, who have been told about it. There are plenty willing to avenge what cannot be defended. But they are Shienaran, Saldaean, Kandori, Arafellin. They are no longer Malkieri. They pledge to fight, to die for Malkier, but not to live. How many of those who survived will die in the Last Battle? How many will be left to bring it back? How many of them will even want to? The population of the world is already in decline, and many will die at TG. The world moves on. The people have moved on. Malkier has passed.

The 40 years forced the Malkier people to flee the land, but we have seen over and over again that if Lan call for them, they will fight for him.

Many will follow, not all Malkieri. People from throughout the Borderlands will rally to his banner. But asking people to fight a war is not the same as asking them to rebuild a nation. They will go, they will fight, many will die. But how many will want to return to their lives after that, and how many will want to start a new life? Some will. But will there be enough?

 

So while your point has merit it is not dispositive.

Indeed. There are many factors involved, in this and in real world situations. We see in the books that there is support for Manetheren, a country dead far longer. The people of the TR learn of their heritage and raise the Red Eagle. The question is, will there be enough people? How many Malkieri will be at TG? And how many will die there, and how many survivors will want to rebuild Malkier, as opposed to returning to their lives in the other Borderlands? To rebuild it in truth, not just as a few villages, will take a lot of people, and a lot of work, and people are thin on the ground anyway, and will be even moreso after the LB. The Borderlands are the front line, they will be hit hard. Many Malkieri ride to Tarwin's Gap. It could still happen, but I think the chances of Malkier returning in the immediate future are slim.

 

I think Malkier and the golden crane are sort of like hmm, a Crusade.

They will come, but they will come to fight. They will fight at TG. But then what?

 

You will find, that no matter how much time has passed since a nation has fallen, that as long as there are people who remember it, who can trace their heritage from that nation, they will always strive to reclaim it if there is a leader to lead them there.

Some will. But if you started waving the banner of the Soviet Union, or ancient Rome, or anywhere else, what support do you think you'll get in those places? How many are crying out for the rebirth of Sparta, or Alexander's empire rise again? How many Mongols dream of riding forth under a new Kahn and regaining what Genghis ruled? Perrin specifically notes his use of the Red Eagle of Manetheren as a deception - that people will see the banner, and think they know his purpose, and look no further. Villagers will see a madman trying to reclaim a dead nation, and will keep quiet and look the other way, not come flooding to him. They don't want trouble, and he has an army. The more satsified people are with what they have, the less likely they will be to flood to someone promising a new order. Part of the reason why we had Nazi Germany, not Nazi Britain is that a lot of Germans were none too happy. Had the Great War gone the other way, then France and Britain were more likely hotbeds of that sort of ill feeling. With the Kaiser ruling a victorious Germany, why should anyone listen to a ranting Austrian corporal blaming all their woes on the Jews? So, those happy with Ghealdan or Andor are unlikely to follow someone promising Manetheren. Those happy with the countries they have made their homes are less likely to leave those homes to make new ones.

 

If the banner is flown, they will come and fight, and not just the soldiers, the citizens will come too, and once they are there, why leave?

Homes, lives, families, friends, millions strong Trolloc armies? Who cares about them?

[MikeRiley]

I just re-read the Golden Crane chapter of Knife of Dreams and I'm going to have to change my stance on this. The Malkieri descendants we see learned the nation's ways - most don't wear the Hadori and all that but some do and they are all willing to fight. Further, the ones we saw were merchants or possibly mercenaries/guards. They didn't seem tied to any existing nation. So the way I see it, a good number of new age Malkieri and a few of those who still remember the nation itself will turn up and march with Lan to Tarwin's Gap where they'll fight at the front.

 

From here, we could see Lan die - and it does seem to be leading up to that - or we will see the Malkieri numbers decimated, but I think once they're re-organized after the Last Battle they'll fight to regain the land from the Blight. The place might have Baerlon's population at first but it'd grow from there. It won't be an immediate return but it will over time.

[Mr Ares]

the ones we saw were merchants. I think once they're re-organized after the Last Battle they'll fight to regain the land from the Blight.

As opposed to going back to their businesses?

[Fox]

[quote author=Casco link=topic=40118.msg1043958#msg1043958 date=1235004643

I have a question though, Perrin. What will become of him?? Rand have his desteny..Mat will become emperor (or something) but what will become of Perrin? Min has a viewing of Perrin - A wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him. Will he become a king to? Will he rise the old kingdom in the two rivers (cant remember its name now)?

 

I saw a theory at Wotmania stating that perrin would be like Artur Hawkwing. Faile is the third to the Broken Crown after her father and Tenobia. With Tenobia looking like she will be childless, and Davram just being old, Faile will be heir to he Crown, and being married to Perrin, who already has the Two Rivers, and Ghealdan under his lordship, and it's continuing to grow. That's kinda how the theory went. Min also has a viewing about Perrin and a Broken Crown, just to back-up the theory., I'll have to find out who's theory it is.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Tough call. Many ifs and buts. Is it to be taken literally or is it some symbolism? RJ said Min only saw the future, but I think there's still room for different interpretations.

 

I agree with the "still room" comment.  I find it hard to believe that EVERYTHING she sees is a fortelling / indicator of the future.  For instance, she sees aura's around Aies Sedai that tells her who they are, but not what they'll do or what will happen to them?

[Winterwinds]

Fox, the broken crown most likely points towards Manethren, which has already been resurrected of a sorts. but that was off topic for this thread.