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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

How did Rand Know?


Dreadlady
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Here’s a question that has bothered me since the first time I read tDR:

 

When Rand is camped out one night, a lady (a merchant (presumably) and her guards ride up. Rand “knows” (or assumes) they’re Darkfriends and kills them all. When he counts bodies, there is an extra – a “grey man”.

 

Here’s my question.. How did Rand know they were Darkfriends? Apparently they were, since a gray man was with them, but from what I recollect, the lady rode up, said “Hello, may I share your camp?”. Rand says, “Sure, no problem”, then offs her.

 

Did he notice something wrong that I overlooked, or was this an “I’m going crazy, kill everyone..” thing?

 

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Brandon said in his blog somewhere that he felt the tDR book were Rand was on his own going to Tear that it reflected Jordan's own time in war. He only wanted to give a glimpse into the sort of things that went on in that time. He either made a really good guess or his powers can detect a grey man.

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we know that at least after the bonding by alanna, ltt (and rand after a bit more time) could feel grey man.

 

now we know grey man is not a shadowspawn per se, so it is not clear whether it is a passive ability of ltt/rand or if it is something else.

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Here’s my question.. How did Rand know they were Darkfriends? Apparently they were, since a gray man was with them, but from what I recollect, the lady rode up, said “Hello, may I share your camp?”. Rand says, “Sure, no problem”, then offs her.

 

 

At the time was being persued by dakfriends any darkspawn in the waking hours and his sleep. He may have not "known" that this specific group was Darkfriends he may have presumed, correctly, that they were. As Shard noted it may have been RJ showing how a soldier might think and react.

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I'm pretty sure that all of that is true, but that Rand was just going crazy in his travels. Trying to keep himself awake each night by playing the flute so that he wouldn't dream. And when he would dream he would be assailed constantly by visions of those he loved and his enemies. It drove him to paranoia. So much so that he almost killed Perrin in one of his dreams. He awoke thinking that he was pretty sure that it really was Perrin and ashamed that he almost killed him.

 

He was so on edge, he didn't trust anyone. And if he almost killed one of his best friends in his dreams, I doubt he'd have many qualms to killing a random broad and her allies. He was suspecting everyone of being a Darkfriend, or a vision created by the Dark One.

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I don't think Rand knew they were Darkfriends- I simply think he was erring on the side of caution: extreme caution fueled by his paranoia. I would bet anything that Lan and Moiraine would have done the exact same thing. What Rand did was as cold blooded as we ever see him get in the early books, and he does it because he's scared crapless and won't trust anyone. As the others have said, he nearly kills Perrin and I believe he unloads on Egwene as well in the dreams- when you're alone, you do what you have to do.

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As Cubarey said, the simple answer is that he attacked them for the same reason he attacked Egwene and Perrin in his dreams--because after weeks of being hounded by Be'lal, Mesaana and Lanfear he was suspicious of everyone. That was, after all, the point.

 

we know that at least after the bonding by alanna, ltt (and rand after a bit more time) could feel grey man.

 

now we know grey man is not a shadowspawn per se, so it is not clear whether it is a passive ability of ltt/rand or if it is something else.

 

Oh? How do we know that? Indeed, Moiraine and Lan both specifically state that the Soulless cannot be sensed the way other shadowspawn can be, and furthermore we never see Rand display any such awareness--indeed, after being bonded by Alanna the only time he encounters a Grey Man is when one attacks him and Aviendha in Caemlyn, wherein he describes it with the exact same method he did when attacked in Tear in book four--his eye sliding over a non-descript man and then him realising what he'd done and refocusing. And as such according to his own POV he never noticed the Grey Man with that group at all until after it was dead.

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i disagree.  it is absolutely crystal clear that LTT at least could distinctively sense the grey man.  and rand didn't see the grey man at first, he deducted it from the open door and also the feeling that he got.  so it's got nothing to do with sight at all.

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Would you care to prove that LTT can distinctly sense Grey Men? Or state the relevance of Alanna's bonding in allowing Lews Therin to do so? If it's crystal clear you should be able to.

 

As for the rest, you are correct, it was not sight, or sound, or smell--in either case. Both times Rand notices a number of strange things that alert him to the Grey Man's existance.

 

The point is that Rand did not sense him.

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And he wasnt even THAT quick at sensing the one that Taim killed. It's a fair few miliseconds between 'the door opened but no-one entered' and him pushing aviendha away and siezing saidin, by which time Taim has already appeared and done it.

 

I think with the party in the woods, he just sensed something wasnt right. Think about it - you're alone, in woods, not in the best frame of mind, you've not seen anyone for days and all of a sudden a 'merchant' and her guards appear and ask to share your camp... intuition was created (well, it developed) for this sort of thing.

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Would you care to prove that LTT can distinctly sense Grey Men? Or state the relevance of Alanna's bonding in allowing Lews Therin to do so? If it's crystal clear you should be able to.

 

As for the rest, you are correct, it was not sight, or sound, or smell--in either case. Both times Rand notices a number of strange things that alert him to the Grey Man's existance.

 

The point is that Rand did not sense him.

 

where did i say alanna's bonding directly contributed to anything at all?  read what i wrote.

 

i am stating facts while trying to suggest that rand didn't just kill for no reason other than paranoia rambo style.  are you against me trying to make him seem more human?

 

and yes it is clear ltt can sense grey man distinctly.  please quote another passage where ltt says 'death comes'.  it is an unique phrase only used when he felt the grey man.  rand DID also sense it but it's just that he has such a thick head he couldn't tell until much later than ltt.  you're talking about a guy who couldn't see Taim's telegraphed treachery.

 

and the point was, ltt was already in rand's head even in tgh (else rand should have died in eotw already when he fought aginor), hence if ltt's sense has nothing to do with the warder's bond, then rand definitely didn't kill out of pure paranoia.

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A good scene as well that, I like how Rand makes the corpses worship him.

 

Agreed. Rand's sense of humor throughout the series, is thoroughly entertaining, even if it gets a bit grim here and there. I find myself laughing outloud at some of his musings. This one in particular though is humorous, but in that eerie way where that little voice inside says that you shouldn't think that's funny. It's the little things like that that separate this series from so many other works of fantasy.

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where did i say alanna's bonding directly contributed to anything at all?  read what i wrote.

 

"we know that at least after the bonding by alanna, ltt (and rand after a bit more time) could feel grey man."

 

You said after the bonding to Alanna LTT and Rand could feel Grey Men. Forgive me but it looks like you were making a causal link--if something only happens after something else, then that something else must be assumed to have caused it.

 

If that wasn't what you were saying, thats fine--but you gotta understand why i thought it given what you wrote. Why did you even mention Alanna's bond if it had no significance?

 

and yes it is clear ltt can sense grey man distinctly.  please quote another passage where ltt says 'death comes'.  it is an unique phrase only used when he felt the grey man.  rand DID also sense it but it's just that he has such a thick head he couldn't tell until much later than ltt.  you're talking about a guy who couldn't see Taim's telegraphed treachery.

 

Firstly, Lews Therin never actually said 'death comes'. Rand mentions Lews Therin 'and his talk of death' after noticing the door opened before noticing the smell. That doesn't make it clear that LTT could 'sense' the creature--we don't even know if he was even speaking of the Grey Man, Lews Therin talks of death many times, and there are even times when Rand has referred to it almost exactly like that--LTT mutters to himself about dying all the time.

 

But even if it did refer to the Grey Man, how does that infer LTT some 'extra sense'? We know LTT sees and hears what Rand sees and hears, and has perceptions and awareness of those sensations seperate of Rand. Rand sees the door open, smells a slight smell of filth, but shrugs it off. Lews Therin would have access to those perceptions, he just did not shrug them off--if, once again, it even refers to the Grey Man.

 

and the point was, ltt was already in rand's head even in tgh (else rand should have died in eotw already when he fought aginor), hence if ltt's sense has nothing to do with the warder's bond, then rand definitely didn't kill out of pure paranoia.

 

Rand did not need Lews Therin to survive Aginor--he did nothing special in that fight, he didn't even weave the Power, simply drew upon it. Aginor died because he drew too much, not because of anything special Rand did.

 

LTT does not appear until much later in the books, and none of his early channeling was exceptional--the using of the portal stones merely involved him sending the power into them, same with the sword in the fight with Ishamael, then we see him learn to make that fire sword--and we see how long it takes him--as well as balefire, both things other wilders have done without Lews Therin in his head--or at least things close enough to show no excessive skill was needed.

 

The first great thing he did was to create that storm that killed all the Shadowspawn, and that was with Callandor--which increases the taint inducing wildness of the mind. Since the taint causes LTT's manifestation in Rand i would take that as the first hint of LTT--and even i'd take that was some sugar. LTT is not the origin of all the amazing things Rand does.

 

Mostly i'd take the manifestation of LTT's memories as the first sign.

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In addition to the possibility of being just another mad rambling, "death comes" could also just as easily refer to Taim as to the grey man, although it's a point worth considering.

 

I agree, we all know how much LTT wanted Taim dead in the begging and how much he raved about it whenever Taim was around.

 

A side note I think it's odd and slightly funny that LTT said 'Death Comes' Sounds like something the wolves would tell Perrin.  :D

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In addition to the possibility of being just another mad rambling, "death comes" could also just as easily refer to Taim as to the grey man, although it's a point worth considering.

 

I agree, we all know how much LTT wanted Taim dead in the begging and how much he raved about it whenever Taim was around.

 

A side note I think it's odd and slightly funny that LTT said 'Death Comes' Sounds like something the wolves would tell Perrin.  :D

 

no it wasn't the same kind of raving.  even rand could detect that it wasn't the same raving.

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i am stating facts while trying to suggest that rand didn't just kill for no reason other than paranoia rambo style. are you against me trying to make him seem more human?
So you make him seem more human by giving him a superhuman ability to detect Soulless? Rather than keeping his closer to what humans can actually do, and his feelings closer to what humans actually feel? This is more human?
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Thor, would you please respond to my comments before continuing your claims. I mean, you claim LTT claimed that 'death was coming' yet no such comment appears in the books. You made specific reference to Alanna's bond as if it held significance, yet have not stated why. And you made claims about Rand's technical knowledge of the power that have clearly been proven false.

 

I'm very interested in discussing this with you, but you are ignoring responses. Please sustain your arguments.

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Here’s a question that has bothered me since the first time I read tDR:

 

When Rand is camped out one night, a lady (a merchant (presumably) and her guards ride up. Rand “knows” (or assumes) they’re Darkfriends and kills them all. When he counts bodies, there is an extra – a “grey man”.

 

Here’s my question.. How did Rand know they were Darkfriends? Apparently they were, since a gray man was with them, but from what I recollect, the lady rode up, said “Hello, may I share your camp?”. Rand says, “Sure, no problem”, then offs her.

 

Did he notice something wrong that I overlooked, or was this an “I’m going crazy, kill everyone..” thing?

 

 

He had a Magic 8 Ball.

 

Rand: Are these people Darkfriends? *shakes 8 Ball really hard*

 

Magic 8 Ball:.....................~Ask again later~

 

Rand: There's no time for later!!! Are they Darkfriends??! *shakes 8 Ball again*

 

Magic 8 Ball:.............. ~ask again later~

 

Rand looses it and bludgeons them all to death with the 8 Ball. Panting he looks at the 8 Ball again and sees "Yes" has appeared.

 

Rand: Oh, thank the light. That could have been bad......

 

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Thor, would you please respond to my comments before continuing your claims. I mean, you claim LTT claimed that 'death was coming' yet no such comment appears in the books. You made specific reference to Alanna's bond as if it held significance, yet have not stated why. And you made claims about Rand's technical knowledge of the power that have clearly been proven false.

 

I'm very interested in discussing this with you, but you are ignoring responses. Please sustain your arguments.

 

i don't have my books how the heck am i supposed to quote anything?  link sites for web books if you want to insist on a quote.

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i don't have my books how the heck am i supposed to quote anything?  link sites for web books if you want to insist on a quote.

 

Well, you know, it's you who should find links and quotes, not Luckers. Otherwise you present yourself in a quite bad light.  :-\

 

I think you know how to Google?

 

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