Rands Survival?

[entropic]

As towards the soul connection between rand and moridin, we need to know more of what balefire is. We know all about what it does but we do not know what it is, despite that it is a weaving of the OP. We need to know what balefire is, i hope that that question is answered in AMOL.

[Paviel]

Elayne did make a comment, albeit probably a tongue-in-cheek comment, that Nynaeve would never be satisfied until she had healed somebody three days dead.

 

Not much to go by, perhaps, but Rand does have quite a bit in common with Yeshua already...

[Casco]

I think the answer is something like this.

Rand and LTT will merge to one person = Rand and LTT is no more and can be called "dead". Alivia will help Rand merge with LTT (personalities) and get all the memories from the old times AND have the memories from after the world fall. Rand will be a "new" man, but still the old Rand at the same time.

 

So i think "help rand die" is Alivia letting hes spirit merge with LTT and become a new man, but in the same body, the complete Dragon Reborn.

LTT is just a life experiences and a name + dragon reborn skills. Rand is just a life experienses + dragon reborn skills. Merge them and we get a new man, more complete, and the old ones are "dead" but still alive :)

[Vambram]

An interesting possibility, Casco, and one that could happen. However, I would be surprised if that is the way Rand's "survival" is written by RJ and Sanderson.

[pxnsolid]

Would Min's visions be tied to the person or the person's body, though? Min saw more visions around Birgitte than she could possible have in a lifetime. Birgitte doesn't keep her body when she dies. It might not say much against your theory but if there's a beggar's staff I'd say it's Rand's and not Moridin's.

 

i cant remember which book, but Moridin has a PoV scene in which hes is think on a game, including the fisher piece. it is sculpted as a beggar with a wound on his side, and a bandage over his eyes, i cant recall if it had a beggars staff. but the wound on its side, and the bandage over its eyes, obviously ( in my eyes) point to this being a historical reference to Rand in his current incarnation. as of the end of KoD the wound in his side doesnt stop bleeding, and theres something wrong with his eyes. he will be the beggar its more a question of when then if.

[Yllek]

Your right pxnsolid, I had forgotten about that. 

 

I don't know how it might tie in, but I've been thinking that the Horn of Valere might have something to do with Rand's survival.  Over and over again, every time we see the horn, RJ draws attention to the writing in the old tounge and repeats what it says in ... english.  Anyway, in the old tounge, death, or Moridin, is capitalized while no other words in the sequence are capitalized. 

 

There are a lot of theories that Moridin and Rand merge and Moridin takes over.  Maybe instead of "the grave is no bar to my call" the horn has another function that helps Rand resume possession of his body.  "Moridin is no bar to my call".  Wouldn't it be great if Moridin gets Rand's body all healed up before Rand gets it back? 

 

[Vassili]

I'm sure this has been said before, but couldn't the infamous quote, "to live you must die" mean Rand's body must die at Shayol Ghul inorder for his soul to be reborn in the next Age? That is, assuming of course, that if the DO wins he can/will destroy Rand's soul forever.

[Jethro]

I doubt it, going off the "three in the boat and he who is dead yet lives." There is also the "Twice dawns the day his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth" passage. There are enough hints to put any kind of resurrection, reincarnation or rebirth in there for Rand. Im just hoping it isnt something tacky, like Rand dying, Elayne giving birth the day after and names one of her kids Rand, and it just so happens to be the same Rand.

[Sab]

Course he will live somehow, after all he has to get Aviendha pregnant.  And doesn't seem like he is going to spend alot of time getting with anyone but Min before the last battle. 

[signdragon]

Twice dawns the day his blood is shed, seems to indicate enough balefire to cause time to be reset so that the sun rises twice.  Maybe a huge circle of male and females and sa'angreal?

[ROB_88]

I doubt it, going off the "three in the boat and he who is dead yet lives."/quote]

 

remember that Mat is also "dead but still lives" so that could just mean that he will be there

[Jethro]

Twice dawns the day his blood is shed, seems to indicate enough balefire to cause time to be reset so that the sun rises twice

 

I would disagree with this because there is nobody that caused the day to dawn. Whos actions would need to be undone in order for the same day to begin twice? It will be an eclipse I think; He dies as Alivia plays her part, an eclipse occurs, and just after it ends, Nynaeve and Damer Flynn will have finished the ritual of ressurection.

[argonath]

Possible spoilers..

 

 

I had it figured that the Last Battle would end somewhere halfway through the last book. The entire series is leading more up to a big fight with the Seanchan and to leave them on the continent would be leaving a giant cliffhanger if it was not completed. Their prophecies suggest they will play a role in the last battle as well so they will still be there.

 

It seemed more likely to me that Rand will be secreted away from the battle after the Dark One is destroyed, him wounded and possibly dying. It could very well be that he and some others will fake the world into thinking he was dead so he could return once he's recovered from the fight. Alivia would aid him in this. So the final last battle would be the conquest of the Seanchan.

 

Im beginning to think that Rand's death is staged at some point (perhaps after a fight with Moridin), giving the D.O. and his minions a shot of overconfidence that they won because the Dragon Reborn was killed.

 

Then, when the D.O. comes out of his mountain and is more vulnerable, Rand appears that defeats him in an epic battle.

 

It never says when Rands 'women' are standing over his bier and mourning his death, but we know that there are other prophecies that says he must die to live, and after the final battle that seems anti-climactic.

 

Of course, we also know that UNLESS Rand is killed by balefire, if by chance he does die at a point before the Last Battle, he is somehow tied to the horn (his banner) and the Dream world.

 

Could he die and Elayne go back into the Dream world, bind him and bring him out as she did Birgitte?  And at that time, his ties to Lews Therin would be broken?

[Mr Ares]

Course he will live somehow, after all he has to get Aviendha pregnant. And doesn't seem like he is going to spend alot of time getting with anyone but Min before the last battle.

Well, it doesn't take that much time. If he's prepared to cut it back to the bear minimum, he could get Avi knocked up in maybe an hour and a half.

 

Twice dawns the day his blood is shed, seems to indicate enough balefire to cause time to be reset so that the sun rises twice.

No. Balefire doesn't work like that. It doesn't rewind time, it changes events in the past.

 

Then, when the D.O. comes out of his mountain prison, which lies outside of the Pattern and is not related to any given geographical point in the world and is more vulnerable wins, Rand appears that defeats him in an epic battle to get killed along with the entirety of the human race.

Corrected for you.

 

Of course, we also know that UNLESS Rand is killed by balefire, if by chance he does die at a point before the Last Battle, he is somehow tied to the horn (his banner) and the Dream world

Why unless balefire? He would still be a Hero if he was balefired. It doesn't destroy souls.

 

Could he die and Elayne go back into the Dream world, bind him and bring him out as she did Birgitte? And at that time, his ties to Lews Therin would be broken?

LTT is a part of him, they are the same soul. Elayne couldn't find him in T'a'r unless he violated the Precepts to find her. And the Dragon in T'a'r need not necessarily be the same person as Rand.

[Terrapin]

what if rand and moridian die, but nynaevie and delmar flinn create a giant spoon and catch rand's sole before it goes to teleranhoid and stuff it back into some beggars body. I mean who is going to miss the begger

[Thor]

 

 

Of course, we also know that UNLESS Rand is killed by balefire, if by chance he does die at a point before the Last Battle, he is somehow tied to the horn (his banner) and the Dream world

Why unless balefire? He would still be a Hero if he was balefired. It doesn't destroy souls.

 

 

 

Blaefire rips out the thread itself completely.  Someone who is balefired will never ever not in a trillion billion million whateverion years be reborn again.  Not the Creator, not the Dark One can bring that person back.  Even if they were to produce an exact replica of that thread, it would no longer be the same thread.

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, that's why the Dark One couldn't resurrect the two forsaken who were balefired.

[Jethro]

Blaefire rips out the thread itself completely.  Someone who is balefired will never ever not in a trillion billion million whateverion years be reborn again.  Not the Creator, not the Dark One can bring that person back.  Even if they were to produce an exact replica of that thread, it would no longer be the same thread

 

Thats not necessarily true.

 

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php?topic=10117.20;wap2

 

Have a look on here, RJ tells us the extent of balefire. He tells us that balefire doesnt destroy the soul, it destroys the "trail" in time a soul has left, yet the soul is still intact. Balefired souls can still be caught by the Dark One as long as the balefire is weak enough, and they can definitely still be reborn.

[Thor]

So the first part of the article basically says, "the thread and the soul is not the same".

That makes no sense tbh, then if the thread is not the soul, what is the soul?  The article seems to suggest that the soul is a part of the yarn (or whatever the wheel is using to spin).

 

However, RJ's reply does not give any indication at all whether the thread and the soul is the same or not.  The only thing he seems to suggest is that, if the Dark One could predict that someone is going to be balefired, he can use some sort of contingency to secure the person's soul.

 

My own interpretation is that the thread is the soul (like greek mythology). And since balefire burns the thread, it destroys the soul.

 

But anyways, hack away.

[Mr Ares]

what if rand and moridian die, but nynaevie and delmar flinn create a giant spoon and catch rand's sole before it goes to teleranhoid and stuff it back into some beggars body. I mean who is going to miss the begger

Murder is alright if nobody will miss the victim? How many beggars do you have piled up in your cellar?

 

Blaefire rips out the thread itself completely. Someone who is balefired will never ever not in a trillion billion million whateverion years be reborn again. Not the Creator, not the Dark One can bring that person back. Even if they were to produce an exact replica of that thread, it would no longer be the same thread.

Well, as ever, I will take RJ's words over yours. After all, he wrote the series and you didn't. He says cut, I read cut. He says not-death-of-the-soul, I read not-death-of-the-soul. I'm funny like that.

The description of balefire leaves us one important question: does "burning one's thread from the Pattern" mean that one's soul is destroyed forever, and one can never be reborn? John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

Balefire kills people before they die, so they pass to the afterlife before Shai'tan even knows they've been killed (there is only a short amount of time in which He can grab their souls). While their current life ends, and their thread is burned out of the Pattern to be rewoven later the soul itself is not destroyed. We have nothing that indicates that it would be.

[Thor]

Ok so the thread isn't part of the soul, then why are people afraid of using balefire in the war of power?  Yeah big deal the pattern unravels, but since the soul is still there, everything will just be remade again, why stop using balefire?

[Swigaro]

Ok so the thread isn't part of the soul, then why are people afraid of using balefire in the war of power?  Yeah big deal the pattern unravels, but since the soul is still there, everything will just be remade again, why stop using balefire?

 

 

Because the pattern is existance.  If the pattern unravels, the world ends.  No big deal? 

[Thor]

The world was ending anyways, at least for the people fighting for the Light.  Their concern about having a world left to rule is the greatest weakness of the people of the Shadow.  There is absolutely no way that the Light should have lost/been losing the fight if they just made use of that and keep balefiring their enemies.  The Shadow has no choice but to concede failure.

 

The only reason might be that if the pattern unravels enough, the Dark One instantly break free.

[Jethro]

I imagine that the soul is what links a person to the Wheel, and their thread is the trail that soul leaves behind. The way their thread is woven into the Pattern is decided by the events they take part in; the reason people were scared to use balefire in the War of Power was that in the time that they had used it, entire cities ceased to exist, because people who were involved in significant events ceased to exist in the time those significant events took place. Does that make sense? History isnt rewritten, bits of itjust never happened, those bits varying according to who died. Thats why twice dawns the day cant be a result of balefire in theory; because nobody made the day dawn, hence nothing anyone no longer did would change it.

[Mr Ares]

Ok so the thread isn't part of the soul, then why are people afraid of using balefire in the war of power? Yeah big deal the pattern unravels, but since the soul is still there, everything will just be remade again, why stop using balefire?

Because it would destroy the world. Destroy the world=not good. You're saying that they should give up trying to win, and just try to make sure everybody loses, rather than trying to salvage something from the wreckage. Where there's life, there's hope. You say they should end hope. As it is, their last hope, that last desparate plan, paid off. That is why they shouldn't balefire everything.