What Have You Noticed on the Nth Read Through?

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The legitimate Amyrlin will be the Amyrlin who triumphs.  Winners make history after all.

 

What I don't get is the foretelling made by Elaida that stated that the White Tower would be stronger than before.  I don't see how this can possibly be.  The cat's out of the bag: people are realising that Aes Sedai are not all-powerful and all-knowing and women who can channel are starting to realise they don't need the White Tower to channel.  Egwene has to be fooling herself if she really thinks she can tie every woman who can channel to the White Tower.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What I don't get is the foretelling made by Elaida that stated that the White Tower would be stronger than before.  I don't see how this can possibly be.  The cat's out of the bag: people are realising that Aes Sedai are not all-powerful and all-knowing and women who can channel are starting to realise they don't need the White Tower to channel.

 

Victory at Tarmon Gai'don and a functional alliance with the Black Tower will make the White Tower stronger than it has ever been in political terms.  The sheer number of channelers from the integrated Kin and newly acceptable Novices of any age will make the White Tower MUCH stronger.

 

Egwene has to be fooling herself if she really thinks she can tie every woman who can channel to the White Tower.

 

Maybe ... but maybe not.  I think that if Egwene is smart (and I do think that she is smart) she will take the Aes Sedai back to something resembling the Age of Legends Hall of Servants, something more like a world-wide guild than a political entity per se.  The rediscovery of Travelling makes this quite feasible.  In this way, all channelers could be tied to the Tower without being Aes Sedai; Aes Sedai could offer training, conduct research, serve as law enforcement for other channelers, set standards and regulations for channeling, etc.  Of course, a functional relationship with the Black Tower would be an absolute necessity for that.  The beginnings of that relationship are already showing up.

[Luckers]

Oh come on!  That's a huge stretch.  Certainly having TWO amyrilns is illegal as well.  Heck, having a rival set of Aes Sedai choose a new hall and new amyriln is already way outside tower law.  Even if you could rationalize that, Elaida branded them all rebels to the freeking tower! 

 

Actually by all we know it was not illegal at all. Indeed, Egwene specifically states that she has the legal statutes in place, and no one every disagrees with her.

 

It's the same as Elaida reducing Shemerin to Accepted--its not specifically allowed, but nor was it forbidden. And for this purpose--Beonin's oath--the exact semantics of the law are very significant.

 

There was nothing illegal about Egwene being Amyrlin, thus Beonin's oath held her, because she believed that. When she had the slightest wriggle room to believe that Egwene was no longer Amyrlin, it no longer held her.

 

That's not the point here - the point is how Beonin rationalized her oath - both in giving it and in getting rid of it.  Neither of which make sense IMO.

 

But thats rather the point, isn't it. Your opinion doesn't matter jack--all that matters is Beonin's opinion. And we do have enough knowledge of her opinion to construct her argument. You might not agree with it, but that doesn't stop her from doing so.

 

Since she was willingly sent by Elaida one can reasonably assume she does not view Egwene as legitimate.

 

Actually one cannot. Beonin is a Grey, her knowledge of the law is what makes her who she is. She may not support Egwene, but that does not mean she could not accept her as legitimate.

 

There appear to be three options:

 

A)  Beonin views Elaida as legitimate and the rebels as ...well... rebels.  In that vein her oath to Egwene the amyrlin was never worth anything, and was presumably impossible to make, since she would have no way to avoid her "knowing" that Egwene was not the amyrlin.

 

B)  Beonin thinks Elaida is an usurper.  Then why did she so quickly jump ship once Egwene was captured, and give Elaida the weaves/ferrets as well?  This makes the least sense - since it would be ridiculous to think that someone who does not support Elaida would then actively help her.

 

C)  She thinks Elaida is not the amyriln, but also thinks that Egwene is no longer the amyriln.  Again - why would she jump at the chance to work for Elaida then, and actively help her cause?

 

None of those are accurate. Beonin knows both fulfil all legal requirements to be Amyrlin--she supports Elaida, but is bound by her oath to Egwene. When she stopped viewing Egwene as Amyrlin she was able to escape the oath and return to her convictions.

 

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Egwene has to be fooling herself if she really thinks she can tie every woman who can channel to the White Tower.

 

Maybe ... but maybe not.  I think that if Egwene is smart (and I do think that she is smart) she will take the Aes Sedai back to something resembling the Age of Legends Hall of Servants, something more like a world-wide guild than a political entity per se.  The rediscovery of Travelling makes this quite feasible.  In this way, all channelers could be tied to the Tower without being Aes Sedai; Aes Sedai could offer training, conduct research, serve as law enforcement for other channelers, set standards and regulations for channeling, etc.  Of course, a functional relationship with the Black Tower would be an absolute necessity for that.  The beginnings of that relationship are already showing up.

 

I agree. In addition i think from an personal level three major things need to occur for the Aes Sedai to gain ascendancy--one, they need to get over their feeling that they are supreme. I think thats already happening. This will allow them to deal with other channelers without offending them to the point of war. Or being offended by the lack of subserviance.

 

The second is that they need to de-centralize--get out in the world. That too is already happening i think, especially with travelling.

 

The third is they need to drop the oaths. This is the most problematic, and i dont know if it will occur.

 

 

[ROB_88]

The third is they need to drop the oaths. This is the most problematic, and i dont know if it will occur.

 

the question here is, will that do any good in the eye of the people?

at the moment AS are seen as manipulating every word, but the world knows that if they answer a question straight forward by yes and no, they are telling the thruth.

 

withpout the oath, they might be seen as still manipulating every word but now they can also lie outright aswell as kill at will or make doomsday-devices.

 

i'm not saying that is the only direction it can go, just that it's a possibility

[Luckers]

Now is about the only time dropping the oaths is possible--for the simple fact that people have too many other things to worry about.

 

Specific to the issue, the oaths should never have been instigated. Yes, there was a growing distrust for Aes Sedai, but the swearing of the oaths served only to treat the symptoms of the problem, not the cause. What the Aes Sedai needed to do was get out there and be seen being a positive influence to society--Greens helping in the borderlands, yellows setting up hospices, and so forth. The fact is, if someone is more powerful than you, and a mystery, you fear them. The Aes Sedai need to be known--and they could have done that without compromising themselves, but they are so self-absorbed that they simply couldn't realise that it was a failure on the behalf of their own behaviour that was causing the problem.

[tnsabregirl]

Luckers, that was very well said. Eloquent, even.  :D

 

Now is about the only time dropping the oaths is possible--for the simple fact that people have too many other things to worry about.

 

Specific to the issue, the oaths should never have been instigated. Yes, there was a growing distrust for Aes Sedai, but the swearing of the oaths served only to treat the symptoms of the problem, not the cause. What the Aes Sedai needed to do was get out there and be seen being a positive influence to society--Greens helping in the borderlands, yellows setting up hospices, and so forth. The fact is, if someone is more powerful than you, and a mystery, you fear them. The Aes Sedai need to be known--and they could have done that without compromising themselves, but they are so self-absorbed that they simply couldn't realise that it was a failure on the behalf of their own behaviour that was causing the problem.

[ROB_88]

good point luckers, didn't really answer my question though

[Luckers]

Sorry, i should have been clearer--your question, whether it would do good in the eye of the people, isn't really an issue at this moment in time. The eye of the people is distracted by the Dragon, by men who can channel putting on coats and strutting around like they own the place, by Aiel invading, by Seanchan invading--and in the long run, but Shadowspawn invading.

 

Now represents a very unique opportunity for the Aes Sedai. For the first time since the Trolloc Wars they are not the big bad in the world. They arn't even close. They can remove the oaths without creating social hysteria--thats already in play. Moreover they can even do it and have a reasonable argument for it--the need to protect the world from the Asha'men, or the Seanchan. Neither darkfriends, both protected by the oath, yet both enemies of the people.

 

Now is a time for change--and not Obama change, but any change. Even change that would normally create an upcry. And for the simple reason that so many changes that would in themselves be a terrible event are occuring that they blur. This is the only time when Aes Sedai could remove the oaths and not be seen as villianous. It would merely be another tiny moment in this hell on earth.

 

And once time passes--well, Aes Sedai are good at spin campeigns.

[scifi1133]

I just noticed for the first time in I don't know how many reading that in Winters Heart Verin was about to poison Cadsuane. I can't believe I never caught that.

[lordofsoup]

i found out that darkfiends were actually darkfriends

[benr]

I've found out that lordofsoup is a great name.  Where's it from?

[lordofsoup]

i was playing warcraft 3 at a camp with the counselors, cuz i didnt want to go outside and my name was like pink panther then or something, so they told me to change it.  There was soap on the floor for some reason so they said call urself lordofsoap, but i couldnet spell that so i changed it to lordofsoup and it was sick

[benr]

Sometimes pure chance gives the best results.

[lordofsoup]

it was 7 years ago

[Nautilus]

Actually this is not apart of the read through...  I happened to be scanning the web for fan based art on the series and noticed something about Rands dragons on his fore-arms.  The book states that the dragons twine up his fore-arms implying to me that they come to about the elbow or somewhere close. Some fan art also confirms this. But I noticed that on book sevens cover art that the dragons acually only encompass the wrists.  Curious because i actually want to get these tattoo's myself.  Anyone have an optinion on it?

[Kadere]

The Wheel of Time covers aren't very accurate on any level. I mean I like the covers, I'm one of the few who do, but they're SERIOUSLY inaccurate. I mean Lan wearing armor on the cover of EotW? Where's Hurin on the cover of TGH? Perrin's shield on TDR? Min being in the Aiel Waste and Tinker wagons on TSR? A Dragkar at Dumai's Wells on LoC? And that's just a few of the mistakes.

 

So when it comes to your idea about getting the dragon tattoos, it's really up to you. I always imagine them as you do, down to the elbow. That seems to be the way they're described in the book. You don't have to judge by the covers.

[Walkabout]

Just started rereading them and have just finished chapter 19 Shadow's Waiting in TEotW. When Moiraine was explaining about what happened to the people of Aridhol it felt like to me that she could have been describing Masema after he becomes the Prophet. She mentions that some people would prefer to see trollocs rather then the men of aridhol, or that the battlecry was The victory of Light is all, despite their deeds abandoned the Light. It was just something that while i was reading it i kept getting images of Masema and his rabble. Its the last few pages of the chapter if you want to see for yourself.

[CUBAREY]

Now is a time for change--and not Obama change, but any change. Even change that would normally create an upcry. And for the simple reason that so many changes that would in themselves be a terrible event are occuring that they blur. This is the only time when Aes Sedai could remove the oaths and not be seen as villianous. It would merely be another tiny moment in this hell on earth.

 

And once time passes--well, Aes Sedai are good at spin campeigns.

 

OR this might be the straw that breaks the camels back and all hope for alliances will fade. Removing the oaths would be seen as confirmation by the Seanchen and Children of the Light that Aides Sedie are darkfriends . Moreover, the Tearens and Chairhenen would not view it much differently. Further if they are good at spinning they could spin the removing of the oaths afterwards without risking the building of the necessary alliances just before the Last Battle.

 

 

[mnwhiterose]

Has anyone thought that the Oath Rod was a form of capital punishment during the AoL?  I mean, it can limit the lifespan of the person being bound.  And these people can be easily seen by their "ageless" look.  Was there such a thing as a second chance, or were all criminals branded as such?

[Mr Ares]

Has anyone thought that the Oath Rod was a form of capital punishment during the AoL? I mean, it can limit the lifespan of the person being bound. And these people can be easily seen by their "ageless" look. Was there such a thing as a second chance, or were all criminals branded as such?

Only channeling criminals, as it only works on channelers (only women, the ones we've seen). As a from a capital punishment, it has the slight disadvantage of potentially requiring centuries before it takes effect - why would you do that? It requires multiple Oaths for Agelessness. We don't know if binding would only be for a fixed period, or would always be permanent.

[mnwhiterose]

True. I guess there is just so much about the "Oath Rods" we don't know about.  Like everything else.  I really hope RJ had notes about the Age of Legends and that was one of the prequels he was planning to write. 

[Mr Ares]

True. I guess there is just so much about the "Oath Rods" we don't know about. Like everything else. I really hope RJ had notes about the Age of Legends and that was one of the prequels he was planning to write.

It wasn't. The planned prequels were about Tam, and Moiraine's arrival in the TR.

[xntric]

Not sure if others mentioned this... on my Nth read, I realised the term "pillow friend" from the latter books is something more than someone u confide in!!!!

[Sylvia]

I just realized this today. I've read the series at least three times through, and I finally figured out that S'Redit are  elephants.....I have no idea why I didn't pick that one up before. Now I just need to figure out what Lopar and Grolm are....

[UGAShadow]

Not sure if this has been mentioned.  Didn't read every page.

 

 

Anyway, Rand, Mat and Perrin's thoughts on women are very similiar to that of the South USA.  Southern Hospitality and all that (though it isn't as alive as it once was).

 

One of the first things boys are taught in the South is that you don't hit a girl.  You can stop her from hitting you, but you don't hit her.  You open the door for her, you are a gentlemen. Women are to be protected at all costs, because they are the ones who bears and raises the cildren and that makes them more important. 

 

 

Its very easy to see why they each have their scrupples with women (though I think that the list is a bit of the madness in Rand) when you are raised in a culture like that.