How exactly would the DO destroy the wheel

[Fryn]

Given that I am not sure the DO really wanted to destroy the wheel, since the EoTW was simply pure Saidin that wouldn't really help that much. If he really was trying to destroy the wheel how would he go about it.

 

The following are some of the relevant information to take into account

The wheel turns based on a function of saidin and saidar working against each other. Im math terms I would guess you could use x for saidar and y for saidin as a funtion against time.

There are 7 ages, but not all ages are the same length. However the wheel is seperated by the 7 spokes that seperate the ages.

The age lace of any give age is similar, but not identical to other turnings of the wheel.

The wheel attempts to stop massive changes to the age lace.

There is always the same amount of saidin and saidar present in the wheel.

The wheel keeps turning and the DO remembers all turnings (not possitive on this, but if the heroes do I would assume teh DO does as well).

 

A few options I see would be some of the following.

1. To stop time so that saidin and saidar cannot work against each other and the WoT would stop turning. Nice and simple, but sadly hard to pull off I would guess.

 

2. Or over many turnings the DO could modify individual ages so while they appear similar to the previous over a enough turnings they are modified enough that there are points of stress on the wheel. For example if the DO were to make some ages shorter and other ages longer while still containing all of the relevant requirements of that age. With shorter and longer ages, but spokes that don't change he could destort the wheel from being circular to a less stable shape with stress points where more or less (saidin/saidar) is required to turn the wheel. This would give him opportunities to attack at those points because it is more likely to break.

 

Basically how this works is once the wheel is no longer perfectly circular, time would start to distort in relation to the pattern. Since there is always the same amount of saidin/saidar which is required to turn the wheel, in points where the age is further away from the axis than normal it would take more time to turn the wheel, and vise versa for the ages that are closer to the axis than normal. If you have ever spun a top that isn't quite circular you can see what kind of a problem this would cause. Start a wobble, prod and push at the right time, and you can stop teh movement.

 

That theory is of course reliant on the spokes remaining stationary, which might not be the case. If those move with every turning then the best that could be hoped for would be making the wheel shrink or grow, which would make the wheel move slower or faster for that turning.

 

 

3. Destroy the spokes seperating the ages. Frankly I am not sure how you would go about doing that.

 

4. Break the circle at a single point. I would guess this would be attacking teh wheel at the exact same time and place every turning, while putting pressure on other parts of the wheel to add stress to the weakened portion.

 

5. Destroy some of saidin or saidar, but not the other. I am not sure if this is possible for the DO. I think adding his taint to saidin might of been an attempt to do something like this (note adding taint isn't teh same as removing it). The reason this would work is because the turning of the wheel is a function of saidin and saidar working against each other. This is much like plotting a circle mathmatically, and if you have more of one than the other, then you will not end out with a circle.

 

Anyone else have any ideas? Basically how would you make a circular (repeating) reality into a linear or nonexistant reality.

 

 

[Tyrell]

Destroy the pattern.

 

Lots and lots of balefire.

 

Bye Bye.

[Majsju]

Like Tyrell said, destroy the Pattern. But I do not believe it would be any great use of Balefire involved in achieveing this.

 

Rather, the DOs own influence. The DO can be said to be the Anti-Creator. And what is anti-creation then? In many mythologies, creation is making Order from Chaos, which would mean that the DO is the ultimate representative of Chaos. And as such, his actual presence in the world would result in a massive increase of chaos, causing the Patter to start unraveling. Which in turn would cause the Wheel to overload, because t would have to attempt to compensate for the corruption caused by the DO, while still trying to perform its fundamental task of keeping time flowing as planned.

 

Something like that.

[Fryn]

Well I figured destroying the pattern would be part of the attack the DO tried. Since the DO likely remembers every turning and previous turnings did not work to destroy the wheel, I figured the DO might have a greater plan than just doing the same thing over and over again. It just doesn't seem like it would be possible in a single turning of the wheel. Kind of like a spinning top prod it once and it recovers, but keep prodding it in tthe same place and it falls over. I mean based on foretellings and viewings we already know they DO will lose this time.

[Majsju]

Thing is, most likely the DO has never actually tried to destroy the Pattern, since it would require him being free. Which has most likely never happened, because if the DO actually breaks free completely, it is game over.

[GrandpaG]

What causes me the most problem is that the reality of my "real" world keeps getting tangled up with the reality of the WOT world.  My brain has trouble keeping the two realities separate.  I keep letting the realities of my existence seep into the WOT universe where things operate differently.  In my world, nobody knows about saidin and saidair so they don't exist.  They get underlined in red when I try to type them.  But, in Randland, they do exist.  If he had a computer with Windows, he could type it and they would not get underlined.

 

It was my understanding that they work together, not against each other.  Either way, they have to maintain a balance, I guess.  I never did understand just how sightblinder (there's that pesky red underline again) intended to use the Eye of the World to stop the wheel.  Maybe it was a misunderstanding on the part of the Aiel (Windows doesn't recognize Aiel?) maidens?  They certainly thought the information was important if they were willing to approach the "lost ones".  Or, perhaps the message was open to interpretation just like prophecy is.  I don't know.

 

As a philosophical side note, if the Dark One was successful in destroying the Wheel of Time, and all things ceased to exist, would he not be included?  If he destroyed the Wheel, he would be committing suicide, wouldn't he?  My guess of his true intentions would be that he intended to use the Eye of the World to keep Rand from completing his destiny.  If he could get the dragon to kneel to him, he could win the Fischer game for this revolution of the wheel.  The Wheel would continue to turn with the shadow in control until the next time that the Light won the Fischer game in which case they would resume control.

 

Maybe "A Memory of Light" infers that the shadow will win this round so that the Legend of the Light will fade with time to be the Myth of Light until such time as the Wheel of Time turns to the age that gave Light it's birth once more?  I don't know yet.

 

No, I haven't been smoking anything...not even some good Two Rivers tabac...it's bad for your health, darn it all to heck.  >:(

Just letting my overly active imagination run wild again.  ;D

 

==============================================================

"A bad day in fantasy is more fun than a good day in reality."

-- GrandpaG original saying.

[benr]

I have always thought that the key to destroying the wheel was in turning the Dragon Reborn to the shadow.  I haven't puzzled out how this would work, just that the DR was the key - this is why Shai'tan has been trying to get him to TG.  Incidentally, Shai'tan would know that even if he fails to get the DR to his side this time, the Wheel will turn again.  He just needs to win once.  And time exists differently for Shai'tan.  Each age may all seem to be in a blink of an eye to him.

[GrandpaG]

* waits for all hell to break lose because Benr named the devil *

:o

* several times!!! *

:o

[Mr Ares]

As a philosophical side note, if the Dark One was successful in destroying the Wheel of Time, and all things ceased to exist, would he not be included? If he destroyed the Wheel, he would be committing suicide, wouldn't he?

Why? Shai'tan exists outside Creation. He is not bound to it. He does not rely on it for his existence.

[GrandpaG]

So, is this Wheel the only one?

 

Or, is it just one of many that the Creator and Dark One play games with?

[Mr Ares]

So, is this Wheel the only one?

 

Or, is it just one of many that the Creator and Dark One play games with?

Who can say? There may even be non-cyclical time universes. Either way, both Shai'tan and the Creator are external to the Creation.

[Thor]

Lots of crazy theories going around so I might as well push my idea from another thread.

 

The DO destroys the world by defeating the Creator and imprisoning the Creator.  All reality is shattered and the DO becomes the new Creator.  And we are back to square one.

[GrandpaG]

So, is there an even LARGER wheel where each Age is marked by a changing of the guard?

 

Who created the Creator?

 

Did the Creator create the Dark One?

 

How many parallel universes exist?

 

How many other Creators and Dark Ones?

 

Who is the top dog Creator in charge of all of the Creators for the smaller Wheels?

[Thor]

Like LTT said, only a greater power can break a power.  (Can't remember how sane he was when he said that though.)

[Tyrell]

Like Tyrell said, destroy the Pattern. But I do not believe it would be any great use of Balefire involved in achieveing this.

 

Rather, the DOs own influence. The DO can be said to be the Anti-Creator. And what is anti-creation then? In many mythologies, creation is making Order from Chaos, which would mean that the DO is the ultimate representative of Chaos. And as such, his actual presence in the world would result in a massive increase of chaos, causing the Patter to start unraveling. Which in turn would cause the Wheel to overload, because t would have to attempt to compensate for the corruption caused by the DO, while still trying to perform its fundamental task of keeping time flowing as planned.

 

Something like that.

 

Yeah I didn't really think actual balefire would be involved; rather I'd just read a long post and didn't have the patience to make one of my own and used balefire as an example of a known method of destroying the pattern.

[Mr Ares]

Did the Creator create the Dark One?

No.

How many other Creators and Dark Ones?

None. So far as is known, and as far as we have reason to believe.

[ROB_88]

can't the DO just make his Chosen Balefire everything and thereby almost destroy the pattern if that is his goal like it seems?

[Cillian]

I imagine the Dark One would pull a MacGyver (I hear he's a big fan) and make some sort of reality destroying explosive device from some chewing gum, the leg of a chair, roll-on deodorant, an X-Men comic and a Britney Spears CD.

 

 

Unless he'd just prefer to twist reality to his liking.....

[lordofsoup]

my guess is that the winner of each round is the Creator some1 has said this before.  the DO wants to remake the pattern in his own image meaning he is outside the wheel and the Creator is trapped. 

 

@my guess is that the DO exists normally outside the pattern, but the Creator has bound him inside, thus he is part of the pattern until he can muster the power to escape, which it seems unlikely that he has.  But it seems also on other worlds that he did triumph (the world  that Rand, Loail, and Hurin accidentally go to that is infested with grolm) and the result is catastrophic for that world, because eventially even his servants kill themselves off 

[Thor]

can't the DO just make his Chosen Balefire everything and thereby almost destroy the pattern if that is his goal like it seems?

 

He wants to maybe, but he can't.  Because people are people and they want the little (in DO's eyes) power and they need things left after the war to rule over.  DO can't achieve anything without agents on Randland hence he needs to compromise.

 

But that's the basis for all teamwork isn't it  ;D

[Mr Ares]

can't the DO just make his Chosen Balefire everything and thereby almost destroy the pattern if that is his goal like it seems?

Firstly, He might get caught up in it, as He can't control the effects. Secondly, the Chosen stopped using balefire because of the riskk of destroying the world. Why would they do this when most of them want a world left over at the end. Only Ishydin would follow through.

 

But it seems also on other worlds that he did triumph.

Yes and no. If He is free on one world, He is free on all, so He didn't break free in those worlds. On the other hand, there are degrees of victory. His forces may have won, but were unable to free Him. A lesser victory, in other words.

[LordoftheMorning]

I don't think the Dark One really wants to destroy everything. If so just have Ishy go about bale firing important cities, people etc. He could easily use some of Taim's Ashaman, that don't really know the dangers and send them on a destruction spree. I think he wants the Wheel destroyed, so that this Ground Hog day that he or she is trapped in can end. Imagine if no matter what you did, even in slight victory you were destined to be a prisoner and repeat the same things in different variations over and over again. The Dark One wants it all. To rule over nothing alone would be pointless.

[ROB_88]

i'm actually a little unsure.

does he really wnat something to rule or does he want it all destroyed. is he an evil powerhungry entity or just the Anti-Creator.