Various Issues

[General Cauthon]

I don't know if I can agree with all of what you are saying on the Pattern's influence. I think that this story for the most part is driven by the decisions of it's characters. When Moiraine says "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," I think that often is an expression of just "crap happens." Something being part of the pattern is another way of saying- what's done is done- move on. I don't think it makes sense to see providence in every single thing that happens. It is true that Rand is locked into a certain course of action- as are Mat and Perrin- but what makes this work intriguing is how they try to fight it. Perrin is a prime example of this- he chose to abandon the fight against the Shadow in order to pursue his wife- and on top of that condemn 400 women to servitude with the Seanchan. In the end, some of what he did may prove to be a benefit to the Pattern, however I doubt all of it will. His actions and decisions recently have been quite selfish, and understandable-I would have done the same thing in his shoes. Overall, the Pattern may survive, but how many people will pay the price who may not have had to?

 

Perrins decision to rescue Faile led to the end of the Shaido, which is a good thing. It also made the Seanchan more powerful, by giving them 300-400 new damane, which is great when they are fighting alongside Rand in the Last Battle. That both Mat and Perrin have the respect of the Seanchan in charge, will make it easier for Rand to get his truce. It probably was a ta'veren twist that had Faile kidnapped in the first place. Nothing but good things have come from it (except making everyone hate Perrin and Faile of course)

[Samudor]

Really, nothing but good? Perrin has gone to some very dark places, and I don't think his character has changed for the better since this whole thing started. He's got a heavier weight on his shoulders than he had, and we all know exactly what his price is now don't we? Would Perrin abandon the Light for Faile's sake? I wonder. Anyway, the Seanchan would be a stronger "ally" for Tarmon Gaidon, but what about after? Did Perrin inadvertantly hand Randland on a silver platter to the Seanchan? The Seanchan may not be evil, but they aren't what's good for the world either. Several good things have come from it, but the cost is awefully steep.

[Jethro]

Still not as steep as it would be otherwise though. Rand notes to himself that he simply cannot fight the Seanchan and the Shadow at the same time, so any sort of truce, however short-termed, will enable Rand to stop worrying about a three-sided battle when he is already losing. Even if Rand cant use the Seanchan (which he will be able to do at some point; Mat and Perrin now have their own connections to the Seanchan, both of which didnt happen through deliberate effort from either) it would still be better than fighting two wars at once.

 

I don't know if I can agree with all of what you are saying on the Pattern's influence. I think that this story for the most part is driven by the decisions of it's characters. When Moiraine says "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," I think that often is an expression of just "crap happens." Something being part of the pattern is another way of saying- what's done is done- move on. I don't think it makes sense to see providence in every single thing that happens. It is true that Rand is locked into a certain course of action- as are Mat and Perrin- but what makes this work intriguing is how they try to fight it. Perrin is a prime example of this- he chose to abandon the fight against the Shadow in order to pursue his wife- and on top of that condemn 400 women to servitude with the Seanchan. In the end, some of what he did may prove to be a benefit to the Pattern, however I doubt all of it will. His actions and decisions recently have been quite selfish, and understandable-I would have done the same thing in his shoes. Overall, the Pattern may survive, but how many people will pay the price who may not have had to?

 

You are right; the story IS about how they make their decisions, their development and so on. I was describing the Ta'verens effects, I did not mean that it rules their lives for them, only that a lot of things can be-and are-down to Ta'veren. For example, I think Rand being Ta'veren might have had something to do with him being bonded by an Aes Sedai. The fact that it was Alanna has no impact on it, only that he gets the benefits of the bond; as the Champion of the Light the Pattern does what it can to give Rand what he might need, and along comes Alanna (just like Moiraine, but for a different reason). Now, not only does Rand heal faster and such, but if he needs people to find him, now at least one Aes Sedai is able to find him. Elayne, Min and Aviendha, however, bonded him for genuine personal reasons, so their case is not down to Ta'veren I think.

 

Now, I may sound like I am stating these things as fact; this is merely my belief, I acknowledge that it may be wrong.

[CUBAREY]

Really, nothing but good? Perrin has gone to some very dark places, and I don't think his character has changed for the better since this whole thing started. He's got a heavier weight on his shoulders than he had, and we all know exactly what his price is now don't we? Would Perrin abandon the Light for Faile's sake? I wonder. Anyway, the Seanchan would be a stronger "ally" for Tarmon Gaidon, but what about after? Did Perrin inadvertantly hand Randland on a silver platter to the Seanchan? The Seanchan may not be evil, but they aren't what's good for the world either. Several good things have come from it, but the cost is awefully steep.

 

The Pattern is not a benevolent god that interferes in human history only to acomplish good acts. However it is a "construct" that spins out ta'veren to force the "weave of time" back into the pattern design by the creator. It is not interested about a certain empire is less or more good, corrupt or evil, it only cares about keeping the Pattern from unraveling.

 

Moreover, for all their hatred and mistreatment of channelers the Seanchen seem to treat the common people at least as well and sometimes better (the Tinkers seek sanctuary in Seanchen held lands) then most Randland Kingdoms.

[Jethro]

Evil is as necessary as Good.

[General Cauthon]

Anyway, the Seanchan would be a stronger "ally" for Tarmon Gaidon, but what about after?

 

Without the Seanchan as an ally during Tarmon Gaidon, there may not be any after. And as CUBAREY pointed out, they treat most people fair, and supply food and work for everyone. In the Seanchan Empire noone has to be beggars.

 

You are right; the story IS about how they make their decisions, their development and so on. I was describing the Ta'verens effects, I did not mean that it rules their lives for them, only that a lot of things can be-and are-down to Ta'veren.

 

I agree. I believe it was the Ta'veren effect that caused a Shaido raid to kidnap Faile, Morgase and Alliandre. Even if Faile hadn't been one of the captives, Perrin would still have followed the Shaido, and destroyed them. After all, he swore to protect Alliandre when he accepted her oath of fealthy.

[Yllek]

The Seanchan might cease to be a total threat when the knowledge the leash-holders being able to channel themselves becomes wide spread.  Who knows what kind of effect that knowledge might have on their entire society.  Will there still be leash-holders and leashed ones?  The whole concept is based on not being able to trust channelers; and they are all channelers.  There's a good chance that their entire belief system will crumble.  Who would want to be a leash-holder knowing that the leash & collar would work on them? 

 

That being said, Perrin's actions may not have the devistating effect that we all think it might.  It might only have served to break up the Shaido power base. 

 

On an earlier topic, I think that Tavreen are chosen at birth and groomed for the job.  Think about it, Rand, Mat and Perrin all born within 3-4 weeks of each other and the dark forces keep stating that they are linked, or something to the effect of 'chop one leg off a tripod and it all falls down' or something like that.  Maybe lesser tavreen are chosen at the time/place they are needed, but strong ones like Rand, Mat and Perrin were chosen at or before birth. 

[Majsju]

 

 

On an earlier topic, I think that Tavreen are chosen at birth and groomed for the job.  Think about it, Rand, Mat and Perrin all born within 3-4 weeks of each other and the dark forces keep stating that they are linked, or something to the effect of 'chop one leg off a tripod and it all falls down' or something like that.  Maybe lesser tavreen are chosen at the time/place they are needed, but strong ones like Rand, Mat and Perrin were chosen at or before birth.   

 

Nope, noone is ta'veren from birth. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren shortly before moiraine showed up in Emonds Field. This has been confirmed by RJ.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Nope, noone is ta'veren from birth. Rand, Mat and Perrin became ta'veren shortly before moiraine showed up in Emonds Field. This has been confirmed by RJ.

 

Having read back through the thread I understand your logic and I understand that "ta'veren are not born" may have been confirmed by RJ... but...the Dragon Reborn's ta'verenness must arguably be active when he was born no?

 

Prophecy has been calling for his arrival for over 3K years

A banner and the Horn we stashed for his arrival over 3K years ago

Callandor was stashed and secreted away for his return some K years ago

Gitara Moroso foretold and told Tigraine to go to the waste

Lamon Damodred cut down Avendesora & made a throne

The Aiel crossed the Dragonwall

Rand was born

On that day Gitara Moroso cried out his arrival and dropped dead

 

I believe and maintain that these are very ta'veren like tugs, pulls & effects on the Pattern and all happened up to the day he was born!?

 

[Majsju]

 

Having read back through the thread I understand your logic and I understand that "ta'veren are not born" may have been confirmed by RJ... but...the Dragon Reborn's ta'verenness must arguably be active when he was born no?

 

Prophecy has been calling for his arrival for over 3K years

A banner and the Horn we stashed for his arrival over 3K years ago

Callandor was stashed and secreted away for his return some K years ago

Gitara Moroso foretold and told Tigraine to go to the waste

Lamon Damodred cut down Avendesora & made a throne

The Aiel crossed the Dragonwall

Rand was born

On that day Gitara Moroso cried out his arrival and dropped dead

 

I believe and maintain that these are very ta'veren like tugs, pulls & effects on the Pattern and all happened up to the day he was born!?

 

 

Since RJ has confirmed that Rand became ta'veren shortly before Moiraine came to Emonds Field, there is no "arguably". We have the simple fact that Rand was not ta'veren from birth.

Q: Does ta'veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand. Mat and Perrin were all ta'veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

 

RJ: You might say that ta'veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta'veren. Rand, Mat and Perrin only became ta'veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta'veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or a woman becomes ta'veren becase the Wheel has "decided" to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And no, the Wheel isn't sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

From the eVersion of Glimmers (The COT prologue)

 

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren’t born ta’veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?    It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.  And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.  It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

From the blog.

 

 

[ROB_88]

i think Rand was destined to be Ta'veren from the start, only because of the prophecy. but it wasn't activated until Moiraine came in.

[Mr Ares]

Prophecy has been calling for his arrival for over 3K years

A banner and the Horn we stashed for his arrival over 3K years ago

Callandor was stashed and secreted away for his return some K years ago

Gitara Moroso foretold and told Tigraine to go to the waste

Lamon Damodred cut down Avendesora & made a throne

The Aiel crossed the Dragonwall

Rand was born

On that day Gitara Moroso cried out his arrival and dropped dead

 

I believe and maintain that these are very ta'veren like tugs, pulls & effects on the Pattern and all happened up to the day he was born!?

Up to the day he was born. So, unless he was a ta'veren before he was born - before he was even conceived - then these events cannot be down to Rand. Only Gitara Moroso happened during his lifetime, and that just barely. So why attribute these things to Rand, if you have to attribute them to a ta'veren?

[Matrim DeLaneous]

Up to the day he was born. So, unless he was a ta'veren before he was born - before he was even conceived - then these events cannot be down to Rand. Only Gitara Moroso happened during his lifetime, and that just barely. So why attribute these things to Rand, if you have to attribute them to a ta'veren?

 

I appreciate your point and can only clarify by saying my confusion relates to the ta'vereness of the Soul that is now Rand.  I understand what was stated, it just seems a little confusing - to me at least. 

 

The general consensus is that ta'veren - those who are chosen by The Wheel - to affect the Pattern - are not born, but are (for lack of a better word), turned on & off on an "as needed" basis. 

 

However, the souls of those who are Hero's of The Horn, and the Soul that is now known as the Dragon Reborn, are not ta'veren when they are born, but only at some point during their life. 

 

I guess it can make sense, but for me, it diminishes my elevated perception of the greatness of Hawkwing, the Hero's of the Horn, the souls that are now Matt & Perrin and the Soul that was LTT and is now Rand. 

[Majsju]

 

 

However, the souls of those who are Hero's of The Horn, and the Soul that is now known as the Dragon Reborn, are not ta'veren when they are born, but only at some point during their life. 

 

 

 

Actually, there is nothing that supports that the Heroes are necessarily ta'veren when they are out and about, the only one we know for sure is hawkwing, in that particular incarnation.

[Jethro]

Indeed. If the Heroes really were all Ta'veren, why hasnt anyone on here mentioned Birgitte in all this? If she had been Ta'veren along with the rest of them then not even the way she was brought back to the world would remove her Ta'veren status, because the Pattern itself would given it to her. Siuan would have noticed as well.

[Tyrell]

Being Ta'veren doesn't make you a Hero, and being a Hero doesn't make you Ta'veren; someone can be both but one isn't indicative of the other.

[pxnsolid]

can someone name a tav that is female? i mean there are obviously very powerful women in the series, but i cant re call one female.

[Tyrell]

None that we know of, or can  be certain of anyway. Certain historical figures may or may not have been for a time; currently though we only have confirmation of Lews Therin Telamon, Rand al'Thor, Mat Cauthon, Perrin Aybara and Artur Paendrag Tanreall Hawkwing.

[mb]

can someone name a tav that is female? i mean there are obviously very powerful women in the series, but i cant re call one female.

 

There was one female taveren.  Her name was Mabriam en Shereed.  here is a link::

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/characters/hist/mabriam.html

 

 

None that we know of, or can  be certain of anyway. Certain historical figures may or may not have been for a time; currently though we only have confirmation of Lews Therin Telamon, Rand al'Thor, Mat Cauthon, Perrin Aybara and Artur Paendrag Tanreall Hawkwing.

 

The site I just gave does not list Lews Therin as taveren, but the other ones you mention are in the list.  Here is the page::

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/main/wot.html

 

[Mr Ares]

I guess it can make sense, but for me, it diminishes my elevated perception of the greatness of Hawkwing, the Hero's of the Horn, the souls that are now Matt & Perrin and the Soul that was LTT and is now Rand.

Mat and Perrin aren't Heroes of the Horn - or at least, Hawkwing doesn't identify them as such, like he does with "Lews Therin".

[Luckers]

As a side note, Siuan implies that ta'veren do occur with more frequency than we realise--she states to Moiraine that she knew she had the talent of seeing ta'veren which means she must have seen one other prior to Rand. This is sustained with the relative shrug off the Aes Sedai give the lads--yes that they are ta'veren interests them, but it does not surprise them. Rare, but not that rare.

 

There is probably one or two every generation, maybe more--just most of them are weak, effecting only small areas. Ones of Rands, or even Mat and Perrin's strength may come only once every thousand or more years, but weaker ones must exist for the Aes Sedai and the general populace to speak of them the way they do.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

I guess it can make sense, but for me, it diminishes my elevated perception of the greatness of Hawkwing, the Hero's of the Horn, the souls that are now Matt & Perrin and the Soul that was LTT and is now Rand.

Mat and Perrin aren't Heroes of the Horn - or at least, Hawkwing doesn't identify them as such, like he does with "Lews Therin".

 

No... I understand your point, but they are ta'veren.  I suppose the connection I make to the Heroes is due to what to me is an ambiguous explanation of ta'veren.  My understanding is that everyone can affect the Pattern in some way as symbolized by a thread.  A thread of a ta'veren on the other hand is more significant.  Ta'veren can affect / influence other people, chance & what could be; thus reshaping / forcing the Pattern in major ways. 

 

Now, I know the text & Q&A's don't explicitly support the idea that Birgitte (or any Hero) is necessarily ta'veren.  But - think of the profound impact she's had on events!  If it wasn't for her, Nynaeve would have died in TAR and Moghedian probably wouldn't have been captured.  All the neat tricks picked up by the ladies wouldn't have been discoverd.  Think of the conversation Birgitte had with Matt in ED (One of my favorite scenes).  Not only did it encourage him to go with the flow and let Nyn & Elayne stay in ED, find the Knitting Circle, Find the BOTW, etc, you could say that the conversation helped Matt embrace his own ta'vereness and his own destiny. 

 

I could keep going but I think you can see that to me, these actions demonstrate a certain amount of ta'vereness.  Now, we don't know much about the individual Heroes of the Horn, I've just often wondered if it's possible to be a Hero and not a Ta'veren? 

 

I understand and have now noted that it is - per the Q&A's.  Sorry so long.

[Luckers]

You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of ta'verenism. Ta'veren produce a certain--looseness--in the fabric of the pattern around them. Effectively around ta'veren the laws of normalcy don't hold quite so strongly. Within the area in which they affect (the ta'maral'ailen, or Web of Destiny) unlikely things can occur. But this is not influence, to be ta'veren is not to influence events in your way or the right way either one. It can do that as a side effect, but that is not its purpose.

 

The way it works is that the Pattern has a push--a goal toward which it drives the flow of events. When the flow of the Age Lace diverges it throws out a ta'veren--around which people start doing things they were unlikely to do. It allows a degree of slack in the pattern wherein the Wheel can move the flow of events back to the goal. This is not a specific action--it doesn't go 'this person needs to do this, but isn't going to, so i'll make his friend ta'veren so he's more inclined to make the decision i want'--its more a general push. The Pattern knows things are wrong, and creates looseness in the strain of the threads so that the natural push of events can assert itself.

 

This push has side effects--people marrying in the hundreds, peoples falling three stories and having no bruises, people tripping on a sunlit meadow and breaking their necks. As Min states these effects are balanced, good and evil both only heightened. Another side effect is being able to influence--in the looseness the desire of the ta'veren must influence the soft jelly-like reality around them.

 

But that ability to influence is not specific to ta'veren, nor its purpose. Ta'veren exist solely to give the pattern the room it needs to push events.

 

Hope that helps, if it even makes sense.

[Mr Ares]

Now, I know the text & Q&A's don't explicitly support the idea that Birgitte (or any Hero) is necessarily ta'veren.

One thing to bear in mind about Birgitte is that she spent itme in Salidar, as did Nicola (who can see ta'veren), Siuan (who can see ta'veren) and Logain (who can see ta'veren). I think the latter two can only see once they are reconnected to the Source, but there is still opportunity for them to have seen it. So that alone rules it out. Nicola's Talent was only discovered when Mat arrived.

[Matrim DeLaneous]

You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of ta'verenism. Ta'veren produce a certain--looseness--in the fabric of the pattern around them. Hope that helps, if it even makes sense.

 

In retrospect, it makes pretty good sense.  I like this "looseness" analogy.  Provides a clear differentiation between a ta'veren and non ta'veren - even those who have apparently had a signifant effect on others and events.  I also appreciate your point that influence on others or reality; no matter how significant, doesn't represent criteria but a side effect.  Something s/b added to the encyclopedia!