Rand lord of balefire??

[sillyman]

The dangers of balefire seem to be overated.  Cadsuane freaks when Rand uses it and LTT claims that he must not use balefire even for Illenya, for whom he would burn the world for, so clearly the effects are worse then this.

 

Despite this we see Rand use balefire extensively, the raid on Camlyn springs to mind where Rand decimates a Trolloc army with balefire yet we see no ill effects despite the fear held by LTT and Caudsune latter in the books.

 

Now to me this seems a bit strange especially considering how greatly LTT fears balefire.  To explain this discrepancy I believe that usually when a someone channels balefire their whole strength is behind it. In addition Rand has uncommon control over balefire.  That is not only can he change the shape it takes but the level of power he uses when making the weave. 

 

The evidence for this is pretty sketchy but so far, correct me if I am wrong, we have only seen two other channelers hit with balefire and both used their full strength.  Moraine certainly did but I imagine much of her strength went too making the weave and Moghedien seems to as well when she attempted to take out Nyneave.  She erased a very decent amount of time when only a little was needed.

 

Thoughts/Opinions??

[GrandpaG]

The forsaken fear balefire because they understand that it permanently eliminates the threads that it touches from the pattern.

 

We have nuclear weapons.  We don't use them.  The negatives outweigh the positives.  Same with balefire.  Sure...you eliminate the immediate threat...but, the lasting affects are not worth what you lose.  Use it too much, and the entire pattern unravels.

 

That's how I understand it, anyway.

[Hybrid]

GrandpaG pretty much got it, I think.  Remember, in the Age of Legends, both sides were using extensive amounts of balefire, and reality itself began to unravel.  There was an unspoken agreement to cease and desist, and both sides did so.  That is where the fear of balefire comes from.

[Ireond]

*curious look* So..

 

Permanently removes them from the pattern, right?

 

 

What happens if you Balefire the Dark One? Or the Hole he reaches in through?

[Ahaz Flagg]

*curious look* So..

 

Permanently removes them from the pattern, right?

 

 

What happens if you Balefire the Dark One? Or the Hole he reaches in through?

 

As far as I know the Great lord of the Dark and the pansy Creator are out side the Pattern if you will. The next thing we would need to know is if the Great lord could be Balefired, I think not because i doubt that he has a physical body like you and I or the people of Rands World.    Rand is the creators avatar, and i am guessing that moridan will be the avatar of the Great lord, although i realy am not sure there.  But i am sure the universe will have  rules, and the Great Lord will have to follow them also.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Rand is not the Creator's avatar.  He is the Chosen One, as in the Creator chose him to do his work, not to be him.  And the DO's avatar would more likely be Shaidar Haran, hence the meaning of his name, "Hand of the Dark."

[DemandredFO]

Everyone else basically said everything and I would imagine people were using sa'angreal strengthened balefire.

 

P.S.  Nyneave also used balefire in TDR, she didn't know what she was doing and I'm not sure she can repeat it but we shall see.

[Ireond]

So.. maybe a reverse balefire? Not something to reverse the weave, mind you, but the whole dang series is basically centered around a theory of balance to everything, so there should be some unknown weave which is a balance. A weave which is in essence, duct tape, poster board, and a little bit of plaster on top...  not bringing anything specific into existence, more of just ending the nonexistence. 

 

  If the phrase "Ending the nonexistence" is used in any thread after this in the month of October, Take a drink!

[Leopoled Boothe]

Then again we might, in fact, be seeing the consequences of Rand's excessive use of balefire.  Could not the inconsistencies in time and space (eg castle walls changing position and ghosts waling the earth) be evidence of the pattern beginning unravel?  We assume that this has something to do with the DO but I don't think that has been confirmed.

[Fryn]

Well here is the issue I see. If balefired a persons soul can not be brought back in the next turning of the wheel or by the DO. If in the AoL channelers used it a lot then on the next turning those people would not be availible for the next turning and then more would be wiped out by balefire. So I don't see a massive problem with rand using it when needed, because he is going to do a lot less damage than those of the AoL did and do in every single turning of the wheel, as long as he uses it carefully. Remember that in the AoL balefire was used to destroy cities.

 

If balefire is as dangerous as some seem to think it is then every turning would be slightly different and progressively worse because of what the channelers in the AoL do every single turning of the wheel. And not having access to those threads to use again.

 

In fact if rand were to balefire the last of teh forsaken then in the next turning the dragon would not have to deal with the likes of Lanfear and Ishy.

[lordofsoup]

unfortunately balefire seems like the only way to get rid of the forsaken, I wonder in osan'gar/aginor will be back, after all he was only burned to death

[Blade]

Well, the Aes Sedai fear it mainly because their records from the age of legends said they feared it. Like one person said, it was only the extensive use of balefire that started unraveling the pattern. Also, there was another part I believe where it talks about entire cities being destroyed by balefire. I think that would be the equivalent of Rand grabbing Callandor and balefiring a city. On a small individual level it doesn't cause as much trouble, but when entire cities full of people are vanishing...well then you've got a problem. I think in this age, the only one capable of causing problems with balefire would be rand with callandor, or if they ever get around to making large circles of channelers.

[Arath Faringal]

Well here is the issue I see. If balefired a persons soul can not be brought back in the next turning of the wheel or by the DO. If in the AoL channelers used it a lot then on the next turning those people would not be availible for the next turning and then more would be wiped out by balefire. So I don't see a massive problem with rand using it when needed, because he is going to do a lot less damage than those of the AoL did and do in every single turning of the wheel, as long as he uses it carefully. Remember that in the AoL balefire was used to destroy cities.

 

If balefire is as dangerous as some seem to think it is then every turning would be slightly different and progressively worse because of what the channelers in the AoL do every single turning of the wheel. And not having access to those threads to use again.

 

In fact if rand were to balefire the last of teh forsaken then in the next turning the dragon would not have to deal with the likes of Lanfear and Ishy.

 

That isn't quite how it works.  RJ stated that balefire kills a person before they die, but doesn't actually destroy their soul.  The pattern can spin that soul out as a new thread as it wills. So even if Rand balefires every last one of the forsaken, and their mothers, they will be reborn at a later time.

 

The Dark One can't save a balefired person for a new body though because he never has time to grab their soul.  It's already long gone at the time of balefiring.  Unless the amount of balefire used is extremely small. 

 

I found a good way to look at balefire is to imagine the pattern as a big bedsheet.  Using balefire on an individual person would be like touching a spark to it.  A tiny little burn mark, but nothing really big.  Irreperable damage to a tiny section, but the whole is still good.  Burning an entire city with balefire would be like holding a match to a small section.  Much bigger damage.  The sheet can take a lot of sparks before it loses its strength and unravels.  Not so many matches.

[Hybrid]

In fact if rand were to balefire the last of teh forsaken then in the next turning the dragon would not have to deal with the likes of Lanfear and Ishy.

 

Wrong.  Balefire does not destroy the actual soul.  It simply burns that person's thread out of the Pattern back in time.  The person will still be reborn in the next turning:

 

John Novak finally got an answer for this from RJ at a post-TPOD book-signing [Northern Virginia - 21 November, 1998]:

 

    Balefire: I'm right. (This was my question) What this means is, if someone is balefired, the Dark One can't reincarnate them. But they CAN be spun back out into the wheel as normal. Balefire is NOT the eternal death of the soul. He also made a comment to the effect that even in the absence of balefire, there may be circumstances where the Dark One cannot bring someone back.

 

EDIT: Oops, I didn't read the last page of the thread.  Arath Faringal beat me to it.  :(

[Guest Dreadlord]

It isnt as black and white as someone who was balefired not being able to be brought back by the Dark One. RJ said in an interview that if someone is balefired, the Dark One is still able to bring them back but he has less time to do so. There is a short ammount of time that the Dark One has to "catch" their soul and put it in a new body; balefire eats into that short ammount of time. The stronger the balefire, the less time the Dark One has; if the balefire is strong enough it could make it impossible to reincarnate the balefired, but the balefire must be very strong, as in Rand vs. Rahvin strong

[Luckers]

*curious look* So..

 

Permanently removes them from the pattern, right?

 

 

What happens if you Balefire the Dark One? Or the Hole he reaches in through?

 

RJ stated that the amount of balefire required to kill the Dark One would else unravel the Pattern and destroy existence.

[sillyman]

Why is LTT so terrified of it????

 

It is the only thing he wouldn't do to save Illenya it seems to me if others but rand could modify the flow LTT wouldnt feel this way

 

low power balefire Vs burning the world

 

no contest really

[Mr Ares]

Why is LTT so terrified of it????

Because he has seen what it can do - it nearly destroyed the world. Wouldn't you tread very carefully with a power like that?

[sillyman]

Why is LTT so terrified of it????

Because he has seen what it can do - it nearly destroyed the world. Wouldn't you tread very carefully with a power like that?

 

Undoubtebly but dont you think that Rand could cause more damage to pattern if he went nuts and started making mountains and such.  There is more then one way to damage the pattern cleansing the source had the potential and the breaking almost destroyed the pattern

[Darth_Andrea]

Rand is not the Creator's avatar.  He is the Chosen One, as in the Creator chose him to do his work, not to be him.  And the DO's avatar would more likely be Shaidar Haran, hence the meaning of his name, "Hand of the Dark."

 

 

I personally (and this is just me) like to think of Rand differently.  Saidin and Saidar are the Son and Daughter of the creator. Born to and entrusted with turning the Wheel of Time. They can't how ever protect it. So they bore a son, (incestuous I know but still celestial beings get away with it), that son is The Dragon. A special soul charged with protecting the Wheel and bringing stability to the pattern.

 

Just the way I like to look at it.

 

 

 

 

Darth_Andrea   

[Mr Ares]

Why is LTT so terrified of it????

Because he has seen what it can do - it nearly destroyed the world. Wouldn't you tread very carefully with a power like that?

Undoubtebly, but don't you think that Rand could cause more damage to the Pattern if he went nuts and started making mountains and such?

Not really, no.

There is more then one way to damage the pattern cleansing the source had the potential and the breaking almost destroyed the pattern.

No, it didn't. True, the Cleansing did involve massive amounts of the Power, and the Breaking did reshape the continents. But the closest reality has come to tearing itself completely to shreds is through the use of balefire in the WotP. Balefire is a sickeningly dangerous weapon. Why the hell would you use a weapon that, by its very nature, damaged the Pattern? Sure, you can use a little, and that only harms the Pattern a little, but it still harms it. Every time. It's too dangerous to use except in the most dire circumstances.

[Khoram]

And even then, sometimes in the most dire circumstances one would not want to use balefire, especially during the WoP. How can they guarantee, though, that with a small amount of balefire over and over again, the Pattern itself is not completely unraveling, even if it's slower? The spark and fire to the bedsheet seems to say to me that, if you have enough sparks, you can destroy more than if you have only one flame. It might even cause more damage, because of the psychological aspects of continuously using balefire.

[GrandpaG]

How do Cadsuane and Moraine know so much about balefire if the other Aes Sedai don't?

[Charlz Guybon]

How do Cadsuane and Moraine know so much about balefire if the other Aes Sedai don't?

 

Do we know they don't? Has Rand used it in front of other Aes Sedai?

[Calantyr]

The Amyrlin has a secret library, Siuan mentions it at some point. It's conceiveable that Moiraine learnt about Balefire from that. And Cadsuane is Cadsuane, super Aes Sedai of all mega-ness. She's lived long enough and has been driven enough to root out lots of knowledge. She was almost made Amyrlin at one point afterall, but she *turned it down* to pursue her own agenda. It's hard to tell how much she knows.

 

As for why Balefiring an army of Trollocs didn't unwravle the Pattern? Well it's mentioned before in the books. Balefiring a person nukes them back in time, the actions they performed no longer happenned. Now bare in mind that Trolloc's are basicly minions, fodder for arrows, swords, and weaves. There's only so much they can do to effect the world. Nuke a Trolloc back a few seconds/minutes/hours and it may not actually have that much of an impact on world events.

 

On the other hand Balefire a whole city of people? At a time when there are world-wide communication networks? Travelling? Channelling is common-place? That's a LOT of potential actions going on with EXTREMELY far reaching consequences. Afterall at least some of the people in that city will be governmental figures whose actions dictate the fate of thousands, perhaps millions.

 

In short FAR more repurcussions than simply nuking a bunch of pathetic little Trollocs.

 

 

That said the Pattern does have methods of repairing itself. Ta'veren are simply the most visible method but the Pattern can re-structure itself after Balefire has been used to cauterise the effects, like sticking a plaster over a cut. The trouble is that this takes time. A lot of time. What happens if you use too much Balefire in a short amount of time? It's like chopping off someone's limb. A small plaster isn't going to stop that much bloodloss.