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metallicafan08

Galad can channel!!

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You all forget...

 

When mazrim Taim went from town to town looking for MEN to form the black tower, he pulled MANY of them of all ages.

 

The test was to see if a spark could be pulled from them... NOT to simply question if they had channeled before.

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You all forget...

 

When mazrim Taim went from town to town looking for MEN to form the black tower, he pulled MANY of them of all ages.

 

The test was to see if a spark could be pulled from them... NOT to simply question if they had channeled before.

 

There are two types of channelers.  Sparkers channel around their late teens regardless of whether they want to.  They don't need to have the spark pulled out of them, they just channel.  That includes Rand, Nynaeve and all other wilders, etc.  Galad is too old to be a sparker.  Then there are learners.  Learners can't channel on their own.  They have to be guided to the Source.  Galad could be a learner, but this passage would not be indicative of that, because learners can't sense or touch the source.

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This is true Taim did bring men of all ages to the black tower. And why do all men have to spark by around 18?? It just seemed to me that Galad was going through the same stages Rand went through when he was first embracing the source without knowing it. Could it not be possible he's just been embracing the source for years without knowing it? I mean look at Nyneave she was in her mid-twenties before she knew she had been touching the source for years, could it not be the same for Galad? I never meant he actually channeled at any point during the fight with Valda, i just meant he was embracing the source. As for the comment about there being no point for Galad to be channeling this late in the series i think it's a brilliant time. He could learn some techniques and be of some use in TG or he could at some point burn himself out and take any number of people with him. Think of the possibilities, half a white cloak army, a forsaken, a shed load of trollocs!! Okay im just thinking aloud now but i think it would be a great development to his character if he could learn to channel.

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Galad is too old to be a sparker.

 

He's not, actually. Men can spark as late as twenty-eight, and Galad is twenty-six at the end of KoD. He has another two years in which he might spark.

 

Though of them, Gawyn seems the much liklier candidate to be a channeler.

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Could it not be possible he's just been embracing the source for years without knowing it? I mean look at Nyneave she was in her mid-twenties before she knew she had been touching the source for years, could it not be the same for Galad?

 

If Galad had been channeling for years he would more than likely have Taint Madness in some form or other.  More than that I think RJ would have dropped more obvious hints to us through out the series like he did with Rand's early channeling.  When you read it now, knowing Rand can channel that boom swinging in from nowhere is clear evidence.  However, we have not seen any hints that Galad has all these "lucky" things happening to him all the time.  Besides which he grew up in a palace with a Red Sister, I think she more than anyone would have caught those hints long before he had a chance to reach this age.

 

Thanks Luckers, I forgot how young he actually was, for some reason I always picture him as much older.

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Just last night I ran into a passage that says he is about a year younger than Nyneave(TDR), but I didn't know the upper age limit for male sparking - so thanks, Luckers, finally someone answered my question. :)

As to the uses of his channeling... well, he doesn't need to be the next Elan Morin in power to be useful in TG. If Galad was to become a channeler maybe he would rethink his view of Rand and reduce the chances of 10k Whitecloaks riding towards TG to kill the Dragon(quite the uneducated bunch, arent they.. :)) So I'll really be looking forward to a Galad PoV having him wonder why he suddenly dropped on the floor and started burning and having chills and all that jazz :)

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Galad is too old to be a sparker.

 

He's not, actually. Men can spark as late as twenty-eight, and Galad is twenty-six at the end of KoD. He has another two years in which he might spark.

 

Though of them, Gawyn seems the much liklier candidate to be a channeler.

 

I stand corrected.

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Anyway even if Galad isn't a sparker (which i think he is) and he is a learner isn't it possible he has learnt to embrace the source through the flame and void training without ever actually channeling? Therefore he could be taught at anytime should someone try to teach him. I can't wait to see it happen because before reading about the Galad Vs Valda battle i thought Galad was a pretty pointless and annoying character. It's opened up so many doors for where his character can go. He always does what is right no matter the consequences so if he finds out he can channel will he hand himself over to the Red Ajah or something?? Or will it destroy him from the inside out? Oh the inner turmoil lol

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Anyway even if Galad isn't a sparker (which i think he is) and he is a learner isn't it possible he has learnt to embrace the source through the flame and void training without ever actually channeling? Therefore he could be taught at anytime should someone try to teach him. I can't wait to see it happen because before reading about the Galad Vs Valda battle i thought Galad was a pretty pointless and annoying character. It's opened up so many doors for where his character can go. He always does what is right no matter the consequences so if he finds out he can channel will he hand himself over to the Red Ajah or something?? Or will it destroy him from the inside out? Oh the inner turmoil lol

 

Well...

 

Imagine if your Mother ran away, and your father was killed at some points in your life.

 

It seems that Galad had to both grow up sooner than normal adolecents do (Like LAN), and was in a palace where he turned from First in Line to red-headed step child.

 

Both Lan and Galad have a seriousness that shows a shell created to protect themselves from early life trauma.  His bitterness towards Rand wasnt personal, just a protective reaction... part of the persona he took on in his fractured life.

 

Im waiting for Galad to LEARN that Rand is his Half-brother and Kin to his mother instead of father like Gawyn and Elayne are... plus, he may find a kinship with Rand if he was told that his mother was compelled to do this by the pattern and NOT for abandonment of her son.

 

But... since ALL Camelyn queens were required to be tutored at the White tower, and Rand was born with the Spark from his Mother, it seems feasible that Galad could be inclined as well.

 

If you notice Morgase was of little power and passed the spark to Elayne, but not Gawyn... but Tegraine passed it to a male (Rand).

 

Could be grasping at straws here, but who truly knew the mind of RJ.

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I don't think Galad can learn but I will say this; at the end of tGH Rand seized saidin when he was fighting Ishamael but didn't use it.  Possible but unlikely Galad can channel.

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I don't think Galad can learn but I will say this; at the end of tGH Rand seized saidin when he was fighting Ishamael but didn't use it.  Possible but unlikely Galad can channel.

 

One thing also to take note...

 

Narration and beleif on 'channeling' is based on 3000 years of assumed belief and teaching.

 

We have discovered that severing can be healed when they said it was impossible, a new way of healing that doesnt weaken a person as the old style did, references by the forsaken that these Aes Sedai know less than 10% of what they knew back before the breaking etc...

 

There is ALWAYS the necessity to hold in the back of your mind that what is known, isnt necessarily what is.  The world is changing... almost like a Wot 2012 scenario, and when this is occurring, all bets are off.

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Okay this topic really got me excited and I did some research on how likely it is for Galad (and Gawyn, for that matter) to be channelers. First off, here is a small genealogical tree I made, leading down to Rand, Galad, Elayne, and Gawyn. Known channelers are marked. Secondly, the two gene theories - 1. the more common one is that having one copy of the channeling gene makes you a learner, two copies (one from each parent) make you a sparker, and no copies make you all in all a loser. :) 2. the more complex (and more spot-on,imo) theory is presented here and I think it's pretty well explained.

 

A couple of tables I created in analyzing from the perspective of Theory 1 can be found here. Looking at the Morgase+Taringail=Elayne table and knowing that Elayne is a sparker, we can definitively say that both parents should carry a copy of the channeling gene => Taringail has the channeling gene. Looking at the Tigraine+Janduin=Rand table and knowing that Rand is a sparker, we can definitively say that both parents should carry a copy of the channeling gene => Tigraine has the channeling gene. Since both parents have at least one copy of the channeling gene then their son, Galad, has 50% chance of being a learner and 25% of being a sparker (the Tigraine+Taringail=Galad table looks the same way as the other two). This theory also leads to the conclusion that Gawyn has the same odds as Elayne at being a channeler (25%-non-channeler, 50% - learner, 25% - sparker). Thus both Galad and Gawyn tend to have rather big chances of being able to channel (75%). However, I find that theory overly simplified and personally lean towards Theory 2.

 

A couple of tables I created in analyzing from the perspective of Theory 2 can be found here. Knowing that Morgase can channel, we can say that she has the genotype X1X1. Since Elayne is a channeler she also has the genotype X1X1. Therefore, her father Taringail has either X1Y or X1Y1(Fig. 3). Moving to Rand, he is also a channeler and thus has X1Y1 genotype. Therefore, he gets the Y1 from his father and Tigraine has to be the supplier of X1- she is either X1X or XX1 or X1X1. Combining the information about Tigraine and Taringail in one table we get Fig. 5. From that table we see that in 4 outcomes out of the total of 12 (looking only at male offspring) we get a boy that has the potential of channeling. However, even if the boy is X1Y1 he may be DD and therefore still not be able to channel (odds: 25% of 33% or approx 8.5% of being a non-channler). In addition, he has the same probability (8.5%) of being a sparker and another 16.5% of being a learner - much more realistic numbers in my opinion.

 

So there we have it - the odds of Galad being a channeler... and with a ta'veren for a brother this ain't such bad odds. ;)

 

If I left something unexplained or made a mistake somewhere, I'd be happy if you point that out. Oh yes, and I do realize that these theories are just assumptions so I can't argue with a "Hey, you made a false assumption" statement since none of us know if it's false or not. I'm not sure if RJ ever thought about genetics behind channeling but I'm pretty sure he'd proud of theory n.2 :)

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Exhaustive research! But where did you get the info that only if both parents have the channeling gene, one can be a sparker? Take Nynaeve for example. You're suggesting that her parents have the channeling gene?

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In "The Great hunt" the girls go to Tar Valon and are being trained and one of the first lessons they go through is how to open up to the source (the concentrating on the opening flower crap.) They are also told to touch the source but not channel it by the AS instructor. At that time they mention heightened senses if I recall correctly.

Rand also accesses the source by using the flame and void trick similar to the flower trick the girls use, and if I recall correctly it gives him heightened senses.

Why is it not possible for Galad, who spent most of his life training in the sword and most likely using the flame and the void tecnique for concentration to push it further in the face of a great challenge such as  the fight with Valda and reach out to the source? It is not like he would know what he was doing. Like the novices in Tar Valon he accesses it but does not channel it into a weave or anything like that.

 

Also If I remember right Flinn was an old guy that could be taught to channel a was quite powerful after he learned its use.

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I'd just like to point out something that's being totally ignored. When a sparker first channels, they usually cause something to happen, but don't experience the heightened senses that those who are more experienced get. There is no indication that they could hold the source unconciously and not channel. In fact, because they can not sense the source and don't know how to embrace it, I find it very unlikely that they could hold the source for very long under any conditions(even life or death). Also, a learner can't touch the source until they are guided to it. That is a fact. Being able to achieve the oneness is not the same technique as embracing the source, even though they start the same. One final point, Galad embraced the oneness and gained apparently heightened senses on command. There is no way that someone could embrace the source on command their first time, and by Galad's thoughts this is familiar to him.

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What we know of channeling from a genetic stand point:-

 

A - It is a recessive gene (mentioned in the guide).

RJ has also denigrated the Guide as "inaccurate in some places".

B - There are many different genes defining channeling abilities
Source plz?

 

It's possible that Galad can be taught, but I agree that if he's subconsciously channeling in that scene, it's a BIG change in his behavior. It would explain some of his uncanny swordsmanship, but I think he's just That Good (in every blasted sense of the word).

 

Well, both make sense, the fact that it is a recessive gene and the fact that there are multiple genes linked to channeling ability.

 

If it were a dominant gene, then that would mean there would be tons more channelers than there currently are. Or at the very least, that any man/woman with the ability to channel to any degree would be most likely pass on that ability to his children.

 

The second assumption, that there are multiple genes, is just that, an assumption based on knowing that there are multiple different 'levels' of channeling. If only one gene regulated channeling, then by definition, anyone who can channel would have the exact same potential. We know that this is not so.

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Exhaustive research! But where did you get the info that only if both parents have the channeling gene, one can be a sparker? Take Nynaeve for example. You're suggesting that her parents have the channeling gene?

 

I assume you're talking about theory 1. Well, while I was doing my small research I came accross this theory 2-3 times in different WoT communities and was left with the impression it is a main-stream notion. And yes, according to theory 1, Nyn's parents should be at least learners if she's a sparker. That is why I tend to distance myself from this theory - it suggests a much higher number of channelers than we actually see in the books. You could say I put it out there for the sake of completeness :)

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Also, a learner can't touch the source until they are guided to it. That is a fact. Being able to achieve the oneness is not the same technique as embracing the source, even though they start the same. One final point, Galad embraced the oneness and gained apparently heightened senses on command. There is no way that someone could embrace the source on command their first time, and by Galad's thoughts this is familiar to him.

 

My view is if Galad is a learner he has been "Guided to it" as you put it. He was taught the flame and void technique and has learnt the ability to embrace the source the same way Rand uses this technique early on in the series. Now I know Rand is a sparker but surely Galad using the same technique would be almost the same as being taught say in the Black Tower to embrace the source. How does what hes been taught differ from how men are taught to embrace the source, in your view?

Also I don't think that this is the first time that Galad has embraced the source without knowing what hes doing by a long shot. I think it would be totally familiar to him.

Why are people so quick to disprove this thoery? I think it makes perfect sense for Galad's character to go down this road, might give him some interesting plot twists in the final book. Just go back and read that scene and just feel how it was written and the things RJ writes, trust me Galad is soooooooooo gonna be channeling in the next book.

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My view is if Galad is a learner he has been "Guided to it" as you put it. He was taught the flame and void technique and has learnt the ability to embrace the source the same way Rand uses this technique early on in the series. Now I know Rand is a sparker but surely Galad using the same technique would be almost the same as being taught say in the Black Tower to embrace the source. How does what hes been taught differ from how men are taught to embrace the source, in your view?

Being guided to the Source is the same as learning to channel.  If Galad was taught to channel, he would surely be aware of that fact.  In addition, there is no description of him doing anything like what Rand describes as reaching for saidin in the early books, with a flickering light beyond the Void, etc.

 

Also I don't think that this is the first time that Galad has embraced the source without knowing what hes doing by a long shot. I think it would be totally familiar to him.

Why, then, is Galad touching the Source, but not wielding it, and all without knowing what he's doing?  In addition, why does he not describe saidin at all?

 

Why are people so quick to disprove this thoery? I think it makes perfect sense for Galad's character to go down this road, might give him some interesting plot twists in the final book. Just go back and read that scene and just feel how it was written and the things RJ writes, trust me Galad is soooooooooo gonna be channeling in the next book.

While the theory that Galad can channel is valid, this quote does not prove anything either way, as Hydroc Claw pointed out.  If Galad is a sparker, he hasn't sparked yet.  If Galad is a learner, he may never find out.  RJ was simply using good writing to indicate how focused Galad was during the fight.

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There are options that Galad doesn't channel and still has an important role. For once, if Gawyn were to die (ye, ye, he has to be with Egwene and all that, but who knows... we could use some sad endings :)), Galad becomes Elayne's First Prince of the Sword and leads the Whitecloak legions to protect the Queen of Andor in TG... All sorts of interesting options, so he doesn't have to be a channeler to be revealed as an important character. :)

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Whether or not Galad will spark, or if he can learn, there was nothing in that scene to imply that he can channel. Where was saidin? We've seen what holding the TS feels like, it wasn't present. Where was the reaction to first touching the Source? If he started years ago, why hasn't the taint shown itself? No madness, no rotting. No taint. No channeling. No evidence. This has been brought up and shot down before. Galad cannot channel - yet, at least. Fact. End of story.

 

And metallicafan08 puts forth another strong argument - the way the paragraph is written tells us that RJ wanted us to think of channeling when we read it.
No. Both to that being a strong argument and to RJ wanting us to think of channeling when we read it.

 

B - There are many different genes defining channeling abilities
Source plz?
Stated in his post:
(this can be safely assumed since not all channelers have the same strength' date=' and the channeling does not manifest in the same way).[/quote']There are factors beyond genetics that play a part, though, such as the soul. The soul may determine all those other things. Maybe not that safe an assumption, then.

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Yes, I must stress something Ares brought up--whilst genetics plays its own part in channeling, the soul also plays its own part, so the maths of Galad being able to channel is made flawed--yes he stands high chances of having the genetic pre-disposition to be able to channel, but the soul element completely invalidates that as a source for figuring out whether he can or not.

 

Which RJ himself directly stated (not about Galad, but in general principal).

 

 

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1. the more common one is that having one copy of the channeling gene makes you a learner, two copies (one from each parent) make you a sparker, and no copies make you all in all a loser.

Looking at the Tigraine+Janduin=Rand table and knowing that Rand is a sparker, we can definitively say that both parents should carry a copy of the channeling gene => Tigraine has the channeling gene.

However, I find that theory overly simplified and personally lean towards Theory 2.

I can see a flaw in theory 1. If having one copy of the channeling gene makes one a learner, and two makes one a sparker, then Rand, being a sparker, must have gained copies from each of his parents. Which means Tigraine must be a learner. But she went to the Aiel. She became a Maiden of the Spear. Not a Wise One. And all channeling women in the Wast become Wise Ones. Therefore, if Tigraine could channel, she would become a Wise One. She didn't, so she probably couldn't. So, looks like theory 2 then.

So there we have it - the odds of Galad being a channeler... and with a ta'veren for a brother this ain't such bad odds. ;)
Ta'verenism works backwards in time? Cool.

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I can see a flaw in theory 1. If having one copy of the channeling gene makes one a learner, and two makes one a sparker, then Rand, being a sparker, must have gained copies from each of his parents. Which means Tigraine must be a learner. But she went to the Aiel. She became a Maiden of the Spear. Not a Wise One. And all channeling women in the Wast become Wise Ones. Therefore, if Tigraine could channel, she would become a Wise One. She didn't, so she probably couldn't. So, looks like theory 2 then.

It is a hazy matter, Tigraine becoming a Wise One. She is a wetlander. Should she be allowed in Rhuidean? Also, Aviendha was allowed to go in search of He Who Comes With the Dawn and remain Far Dareis Mai until The Shadow Rising despite the Wise Ones knowing she has the spark in her. So while I agree (as I said before) that theory 1 is not very good, Tigraine not becoming a Wise One doesn't present a definite flaw in it.

 

Ta'verenism works backwards in time? Cool.

Time is also quite the hazy matter in a world where the Wheel turns and time is cyclical. But it doesn't need to work "back" in time. It could work in the present - for instance, in finding Galad a mentor.

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I can see a flaw in theory 1. If having one copy of the channeling gene makes one a learner, and two makes one a sparker, then Rand, being a sparker, must have gained copies from each of his parents. Which means Tigraine must be a learner. But she went to the Aiel. She became a Maiden of the Spear. Not a Wise One. And all channeling women in the Wast become Wise Ones. Therefore, if Tigraine could channel, she would become a Wise One. She didn't, so she probably couldn't. So, looks like theory 2 then.
It is a hazy matter, Tigraine becoming a Wise One. She is a wetlander. Should she be allowed in Rhuidean? Also, Aviendha was allowed to go in search of He Who Comes With the Dawn and remain Far Dareis Mai until The Shadow Rising despite the Wise Ones knowing she has the spark in her. So while I agree (as I said before) that theory 1 is not very good, Tigraine not becoming a Wise One doesn't present a definite flaw in it.
But all Aiel channeling women become Wise Ones. Either she couldn't channel, or she wasn't considered Aiel - yet she is considered Aiel, as she becomes a Maiden. Aviendha's training as a Wise One was delayed. Are you suggesting that Tigraine's was as well? Furthermore, it was delayed because they allowed a woman who came to them to play at being a Maiden, when she could already channel when she came to them. That seems most unlike the Wise Ones. They delayed with Aviendha, but she was already a Maiden - here they delay in order to allow her to become a Maiden, only to take that away again. What reason do we have to believe any of that? None. We have no reason to believe that she could channel, and enough to demonstrate she couldn't.

We should discard theory 1 as wrong. And any theory which fails to take the soul into account should be treated with caution - genetics is only ever a partial answer to this.

Ta'verenism works backwards in time? Cool.
Time is also quite the hazy matter in a world where the Wheel turns and time is cyclical. But it doesn't need to work "back" in time. It could work in the present - for instance, in finding Galad a mentor.
I didn't realize ones genetics could be changed by gaining a mentor. You talked about the chances of Galad being a channeler. This is partly genetic. Am I right in thinking you get your genes at conception? And Galad is older than Rand, and Rand wasn't ta'veren till the start of the series, so for Rand's ta'verenism to have affected Galad's genetics, it would have to work backwards (or very far forwards) in time - it would have to alter the chances of Galad being a channeler at Galad's conception.

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