The Dark One's death

[Gholam]

This is just open for an arguement, but here it goes:  I believe that Rand will kill the DO.  Just sealing him away is just asking for the entire series to happen again later.  I think Robert Jordan has said in his books that even though things remain pretty much the same on the turning of the wheel, things can turn out majorly different on each turning.  It's just my opinion.

[Roxinos]

I actually agree with you, though most people don't seem to because of the cyclical nature of the Wheel. I believe that's why it is always referred to as "The Last Battle."

 

But in general, the idea seems contradictory to everything we've been presented with. The Wheel of Time turns and Ages come to pass leaving memories which fade to legend. Legend fades to myth and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. *sigh* I'm not feeling particularly coherent right now.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I,ve wondered about that alot and I sometimes think that there will be something fundamentally different about this particular turning of The Wheel.  I have a theory that this particular turning is the first time that the bore was drilled and that this event has been absent from all other turnings.  The reason for this belief are:

 

1. The drilling of the bore came about because Lanfear discovered the True Power which comes from the DO.  However, the DO was not created by the Creator and is not part of the pattern.  Therefore, any actions of the DO cannot be part of the predetermined patterm set forth by The Wheel.

 

2.  The DO exists outside of creation and therefore should be able to witness each turing of the wheel.  If TG had occured before he would know exactly what Rand was going to do to defeat him and would have had the time of a full turning of The Wheel to figure out a way to counter it.  Even if the DO didn't figure out a way on the 2nd time around he would have infinite chances to do so and would eventually win.  

 

No I think the bore and TG are things that only happen once and make this particular turning of The Wheel unique.  I think TG truly will a "the last battle" with the DO and after this he will either be dead or permenantly sealed away from the pattern never to touch it again.

 

 

 

[Spirit1025]

I know I've heard a theory somewhere that the 'thin spot' in the Pattern where the Bore was drilled was actually the patch on a previous bore. I think Herid Fel might have mentioned it in the books, but I can't remember for sure.

[Sabio]

I know I've heard a theory somewhere that the 'thin spot' in the Pattern where the Bore was drilled was actually the patch on a previous bore. I think Herid Fel might have mentioned it in the books, but I can't remember for sure.

 

Yup, hence why most think he was killed, Rand will seal it and in time people will forget about the DO as he power over the world lessens and one day the bore will be drilled agin.  And Ish's statements on the battle has gone on over and over and over. 

 

Since the Dark One is a godlike being its doubtful Rand could kill it. 

[Cockta]

Then you haven't played enough games to understand that even a fake God can be killed.

 

Anyways, this might sound a little stupid, but I wish that Rand, after he presumably seales the bore, makes a big sign that will endure the climate. A sign that says that this is the location of the DO prison, so that no one forgets about it, ever. maybe put some troops there to protect it from mad BA that want to open it again.

[Jehaine]

...And after his death, people will try to pull it down because they don't want to remember that compared to him, they are nothing. It's kind of like looking at a world map and seeing a small red dot saying "You are HERE"... Pride works in strange ways. Or maybe Darkfriends will to throw off the good guys. The same happened to Hawkwing's statue even though he was loved throughout the continent.

 

As for the DO's death... I believe he can't be killed. As was stated, he exists outside of the pattern, the Wheel having formed a barrier around him that he can't pass through. Think of him like a mass of ghostly energy. He cannot be killed simply because he has never been alive to get killed in the first place, the laws of the world do not apply to him. For having existed before the Wheel was made, the Wheel couldn't hold his thread so there's nothing to remove with balefire either.

 

But still... let's suppose he would die. The Wheel will no longer have a use, and most of the bad things that happen during the turning of the Wheel will no longer happen. No Trollocs, no Myrddraal, no Forsaken, no Taint, just a handful of Darkfriends in denial, and a group of Heroes of the Horn playing card games in TAR for having nothing to do in between rebirths. The Pattern would almost be as maimed as it'd be if the DO should win, the only difference being that the balance would shift towards Light rather than Dark. And who knows what the Pattern is capable of once a massive section of Dark is removed, and would need to be compensated for?

 

So yeah, he'd be resealed. The Bore would be drilled an Age or two later, it'd eventually get patched by LTT again until Rand shows up and recreates the Seal whole and unpatched again. Fel hinted at there being TWO DR's in the Pattern's history by stating that the Creator didn't create the seal with the patch already there, and i believe that's why he was made a primary target by having a Gholam sent at him.

 

Just my two cents.

[RAND AL THOR]

Just sealing him away is just asking for the entire series to happen again later.

 

Which is precisely how the Wheel operates. ;)

[Sabio]

Anyways, this might sound a little stupid, but I wish that Rand, after he presumably seales the bore, makes a big sign that will endure the climate. A sign that says that this is the location of the DO prison, so that no one forgets about it, ever. maybe put some troops there to protect it from mad BA that want to open it again.

 

Assuming the survivng DF's don't tear it down till they vanish over time (since if DF's live 1000 years after the sealing hard to forget about the DarkOne).  How long till people just start disbleiving the DO exsists and start to assume the DO is just a story to scare little kids (like the tales of the Forsaken in Rands time)?  

[Mr Ares]

Then you haven't played enough games to understand that even a fake God can be killed.

Shai'tan isn't a fake god. How does one kill a god, anyway?

 

Anyways, this might sound a little stupid, but I wish that Rand, after he presumably seales the bore, makes a big sign that will endure the climate. A sign that says that this is the location of the DO prison, so that no one forgets about it, ever. maybe put some troops there to protect it from mad BA that want to open it again.

So he puts a big sign up...where? The Bore is everywhere. Is it an omnipresent sign? And your sign will not last forever. It will break, or be forgotten. They will forget, eventually. The Third Age will come again...

 

2. The DO exists outside of creation and therefore should be able to witness each turing of the wheel. If TG had occured before he would know exactly what Rand was going to do to defeat him and would have had the time of a full turning of The Wheel to figure out a way to counter it. Even if the DO didn't figure out a way on the 2nd time around he would have infinite chances to do so and would eventually win.

You assume that the Dragon would use the same tactics to defeat Shai'tan each time. How many different variations are there? How many can be guarded against at any one time? And what you say about Him eventually winning - that's why Ishy joined the Shadow. So he could be on the winning side.

 

As for the DO's death... I believe he can't be killed. As was stated, he exists outside of the pattern, the Wheel having formed a barrier around him that he can't pass through. Think of him like a mass of ghostly energy. He cannot be killed simply because he has never been alive to get killed in the first place, the laws of the world do not apply to him. For having existed before the Wheel was made, the Wheel couldn't hold his thread so there's nothing to remove with balefire either.

RJ once said that the amount of balefire necessary to kill Shai'tan would destroy the world

 

But still... let's suppose he would die. The Wheel will no longer have a use, and most of the bad things that happen during the turning of the Wheel will no longer happen. No Trollocs, no Myrddraal, no Forsaken, no Taint, just a handful of Darkfriends in denial, and a group of Heroes of the Horn playing card games in TAR for having nothing to do in between rebirths. The Pattern would almost be as maimed as it'd be if the DO should win, the only difference being that the balance would shift towards Light rather than Dark. And who knows what the Pattern is capable of once a massive section of Dark is removed, and would need to be compensated for?

So the only reason the Wheel exists is to periodically be assaulted by something outside it? Most of the bad things will no longer happen? Since when has humanity needed outside help to do evil stuff? And Shai'tan exists outside the Pattern.

So yeah, he'd be resealed. The Bore would be drilled an Age or two later, it'd eventually get patched by LTT again until Rand shows up and recreates the Seal whole and unpatched again. Fel hinted at there being TWO DR's in the Pattern's history by stating that the Creator didn't create the seal with the patch already there, and i believe that's why he was made a primary target by having a Gholam sent at him.

To heal the Pattern they will need to break the seals - clearing away the rubble before they can rebuild, like Fel said. He was killed for getting too close to the truth.

[Cockta]

You could leave bones around the garrison, so that any visitor(it would most probably be a major tourist attraction) could see bones of fallen men and trolloc, and possibly other Shadowspawn. This is just one idea of how people could remember the DO, because there is hard evidence.

 

And in case the prison isn't a major tourist attraction, there could be museums in the larger cities where they would show of trollocs and myrdraal skeletons, and people would believe it, especially if scientists said it is trollocs.

 

I mean, the pyramids were built many thousands of years ago, but people still know they exist, because they can see them. If Randlanders, and other people from around the world could see Shadowspawn, at least dead ones, they would believe that the DO exist.

 

And calm down Mr Ares, you are not the only one here who is right.

[Thorum]

They could make trollocs and halfmen and draghkar and the like come to extinction, but not the DO himself. It would destroy the cycle of the Wheel, which is exactly what they are trying to prevent.

 

Probably one of the best examples for this is the imo most probable last scene: Tam, Rand and Bela farming. Just like the first scene.

[Jehaine]

As for the DO's death... I believe he can't be killed. As was stated, he exists outside of the pattern, the Wheel having formed a barrier around him that he can't pass through. Think of him like a mass of ghostly energy. He cannot be killed simply because he has never been alive to get killed in the first place, the laws of the world do not apply to him. For having existed before the Wheel was made, the Wheel couldn't hold his thread so there's nothing to remove with balefire either.

RJ once said that the amount of balefire necessary to kill Shai'tan would destroy the world

 

Unless he meant that the act of killing Shai'tan in itself would destroy the world.

 

But still... let's suppose he would die. The Wheel will no longer have a use, and most of the bad things that happen during the turning of the Wheel will no longer happen. No Trollocs, no Myrddraal, no Forsaken, no Taint, just a handful of Darkfriends in denial, and a group of Heroes of the Horn playing card games in TAR for having nothing to do in between rebirths. The Pattern would almost be as maimed as it'd be if the DO should win, the only difference being that the balance would shift towards Light rather than Dark. And who knows what the Pattern is capable of once a massive section of Dark is removed, and would need to be compensated for?

So the only reason the Wheel exists is to periodically be assaulted by something outside it? Most of the bad things will no longer happen? Since when has humanity needed outside help to do evil stuff? And Shai'tan exists outside the Pattern.

 

Given that the reason the Wheel was originally made to contain something that existed outside it, yes. I didn't mean that there would no longer be bad acts, i meant that there would be no more DO-related bad acts, such as the misfortune naming him (which is fairly consistent throughout the Books). Given that the vast majority of evil counterbalancing good on the scale is related to the DO, the Pattern would be forced to pick something new to pit people against each other.

 

So yeah, he'd be resealed. The Bore would be drilled an Age or two later, it'd eventually get patched by LTT again until Rand shows up and recreates the Seal whole and unpatched again. Fel hinted at there being TWO DR's in the Pattern's history by stating that the Creator didn't create the seal with the patch already there, and i believe that's why he was made a primary target by having a Gholam sent at him.

To heal the Pattern they will need to break the seals - clearing away the rubble before they can rebuild, like Fel said. He was killed for getting too close to the truth.

 

Well, it seems we both agree why Fel needed to die, though for (slightly) different reasons. ;)

[Sabio]

[quoteBut still... let's suppose he would die. The Wheel will no longer have a use, and most of the bad things that happen during the turning of the Wheel will no longer happen. No Trollocs, no Myrddraal, no Forsaken, no Taint, just a handful of Darkfriends in denial, and a group of Heroes of the Horn playing card games in TAR for having nothing to do in between rebirths. The Pattern would almost be as maimed as it'd be if the DO should win, the only difference being that the balance would shift towards Light rather than Dark. And who knows what the Pattern is capable of once a massive section of Dark is removed, and would need to be compensated for?

So the only reason the Wheel exists is to periodically be assaulted by something outside it? Most of the bad things will no longer happen? Since when has humanity needed outside help to do evil stuff? And Shai'tan exists outside the Pattern.

 

Given that the reason the Wheel was originally made to contain something that existed outside it, yes. I didn't mean that there would no longer be bad acts, i meant that there would be no more DO-related bad acts, such as the misfortune naming him (which is fairly consistent throughout the Books). Given that the vast majority of evil counterbalancing good on the scale is related to the DO, the Pattern would be forced to pick something new to pit people against each other.]

 

But before the bore was drilled bad acts were almost unheard of since most the things that would cause conflict greed (since stauts was more important then financial gain), poverty, no famine, even the concept of war was non exsistent until the end of the age etc.. .  So without the DO there would be nothing to magnify the these basic bad influences.

[Mr Ares]

I mean, the pyramids were built many thousands of years ago, but people still know they exist, because they can see them. If Randlanders, and other people from around the world could see Shadowspawn, at least dead ones, they would believe that the DO exist.

They would believe Trollocs, Myrddraal, etc. existed. Their existence does not prove the existence of Shai'tan.

 

And calm down Mr Ares, you are not the only one here who is right.

I am calm, young mortal. Nor do I claim to be the only person who is right.

 

And in case the prison isn't a major tourist attraction

How could it be? The prison exists outside the Pattern. The Bore is everywhere. When it is sealed, it will be nowhere. How are tourists supposed to visit it?

 

Unless he meant that the act of killing Shai'tan in itself would destroy the world.

Decide for yourself:

Q3- Why doesn't somebody just Balefire the Dark One?

 

The quantity necessary would destroy the world.

Note the use of the term quantity.

 

Given that the reason the Wheel was originally made to contain something that existed outside it, yes.

Was it indeed? Quotes.

 

Well, it seems we both agree why Fel needed to die, though for (slightly) different reasons. ;)

Indeed. In previous Ages a Bore may have been drilled, and sealed again as good as new. Rand will need to do that this time. He will need to break the seals in order to do that. If Fel leads him to that conclusion...bad for the Shadow, perhaps. So Fel dies.

 

But before the bore was drilled bad acts were almost unheard of since most the things that would cause conflict greed (since stauts was more important then financial gain), poverty, no famine, even the concept of war was non exsistent until the end of the age etc.. .  So without the DO there would be nothing to magnify the these basic bad influences.

Only in the AoL. There were other Ages before that, with other conflicts (Merc and Mosc duelling with spears of fire), Shai'tan isn't needed for them, is He?

[Jehaine]

Exactly, and the Pattern is set up in a way that there remains a balance between Light and Dark. If Dark is winning, it'll spawn one of the Heroes to set things straight. If Light is winning, a certain string of events lead to couple of key figures turning to the Shadow. It's how it works.

 

Before the Bore, Light was quite obviously having a large advantage, hence the Pattern arranging the conditions for the Bore to be drilled. Compared to how vast the Pattern is, a couple of decades are nothing to it, and it had all the time it needed to have strong Aes Sedai turn into the next batch of Forsaken.

 

In a way, you could see it as a boat. Tip it far to one side, and it'll rock far to the other side before (eventually) evening itself out again in the middle. The DO knows this, and it's why he wants to destroy the pattern before his forces are hit with the Pattern's recoil in restoring the balance again, should he manage to break free.

 

Also, Mr. Ares, while it seems i missed the word 'quantity' in there (point conceded), that still leaves one more point to discuss.

 

Given that the reason the Wheel was originally made to contain something that existed outside it, yes.

Was it indeed? Quotes.

 

The Creator created the Wheel of Time, which is time itself. The Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation.

 

And there you go. In order to imprison something, it has to actually exist first, and if that means the Dark One will need to influence people where he can to periodically assault the Wheel whenever his power is peaking (which makes sense), then we've gotten an awful bit closer to why the Wheel has recurring events in the first place.

[Cockta]

I may be a young mortal, but you are nothing better than me. I don't know how old you are, but I presume that you are oldewr than me, so you would just be an older mortal, nothing more, nothing less.

 

As for the discussion, what I meant with the prison being a big tourist attraction, was that the place would be Shayol Ghul, because until now, everyone who has spoken with the DO, had to come to SG to speak to him. You can't speak with the DO in Cairhien, or Altara, you have to be inside SG to hear his voice. That is why all the forsaken come to SG to speak with the DO, because they can't speak with him wherever they are.

[Roxinos]

The Creator created the Wheel of Time, which is time itself. The Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation.

 

Sorry Jehaine, but that does not speak to the intent in the creation of the Wheel. It only speaks towards two events which happened seemingly simultaneously with no reason to suggest that they had any link. If you do want to suppose the two events are linked, then you can suppose the opposite of what you were supposing, the intent in the creation of the Dark One's prison, not in the creation of the Wheel.

 

That line tells us that the Creator created the Wheel of Time. Then it tells us that the Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside the Pattern. Considering what we know of the Dark One, that means that he was imprisoned to prevent his interference within the Pattern. It does not say that the Creator created the Wheel of Time to imprison the Dark One.

[Jehaine]

You'd be right if not for the section the second line ends with: 'at the moment of creation'. Note the use of the word 'moment' in it, which implies time, something that didn't exist prior to the Wheel's creation. That, and the word 'creation' being used by the people whose threads make up the Wheel's weave makes it reasonably safe to assume that their use of the word is derived from when they were created as a whole, quite literally their 'beginning of time'.

 

At the moment of creation, there is nothing save for the Creator and the Dark One, representing Light and Dark. The Creator creates the Wheel, and suddenly the Dark One is imprisoned somewhere where there had previously been nothing. The only way the Creator would have to keep him sealed away is to make sure the Pattern doesn't allow his (complete) return, and the Wheel would be a means to an end.

[Charlz Guybon]

There's no way Rand will kill the Dark One. The Dark One is a god, albiet an exceptionally evil one. The best Rand can do is seal him off. To do otherwise would be to break the wheel and unravel the pattern.

[Cockta]

I wonder why Rand never even have thought of tryin gto ask the Creator for help, to maybe get some knowlegde, so he may have some better chances. You know, a good old fashioned prayer  ;)

[SqueeEGA]

For that Cockta I would remind you of the end of the first book.  "ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL"  To me this implies that the only influence that The Creator will have in these events is creating the wheel itself.  I am also reminded of the y2k episode of South Park.  Jesus' revelation is that if God were to do things for us that there would be no point in being human.

 

This discussion has brought to me an interesting question.  What is so special about this particular turning of the wheel?  Why did RJ decide to tell us about this instance rather than some other one?  What is so special about 'Rand, The Dragon Reborn' rather than 'Bob, The Dragon Reborn'?  (Yes yes I realize that LTT was the dragon so rand is TDR and perhaps 'Bob' was 'The Panther reborn' or some such, but for all intensive purposes hes TDR.)

 

I read a theory once where the writer postulated that after TG occurs the world becomes a stedding.  Perhaps this is just wishful thinking and that maybe we're living in that world and thats why we cant channel.  *shrug*  The point Im trying to make is that perhaps there is some event that occurs that has never occurred in all the turnings of the wheel.  Maybe this worldwide stedding idea, or the complete destruction of the DO, or, dare I say, the failure of the Light?

 

I dont think that the DO can truly be killed any more than the creator can.  He is an entity outside of time and space.  Something that existed before the creation of time.  I dont think there is anything to kill.  It would be like trying to use up all of the OP.

[Roxinos]

You'd be right if not for the section the second line ends with: 'at the moment of creation'. Note the use of the word 'moment' in it, which implies time, something that didn't exist prior to the Wheel's creation. That, and the word 'creation' being used by the people whose threads make up the Wheel's weave makes it reasonably safe to assume that their use of the word is derived from when they were created as a whole, quite literally their 'beginning of time'.

 

But there is nothing to suggest that the Dark One could not have been imprisoned without the Wheel. There is nothing to suggest the Wheel is what imprisons him. In fact, it says the Creator imprisoned the Dark One at the moment of creation.

 

As I mentioned before, the line refers to two different events. And there is nothing to suggest that the Creator created the Wheel so that he could imprison the Dark One.

[Great Lord of the Dark]

psh. I can't be kilt. FEAR MEEEEE!!!!

 

nah rand will just seal me away so i cant do anything

[RAND AL THOR]

This discussion has brought to me an interesting question.  What is so special about this particular turning of the wheel?  Why did RJ decide to tell us about this instance rather than some other one?  What is so special about 'Rand, The Dragon Reborn' rather than 'Bob, The Dragon Reborn'?  (Yes yes I realize that LTT was the dragon so rand is TDR and perhaps 'Bob' was 'The Panther reborn' or some such, but for all intensive purposes hes TDR.)

 

Well, RJ had to tell the story from SOME age, didn't here? He could have taken LTT's time but that would have been infinitely boring compared to the current one. There were few darkfriends before the Bore was drilled etc... and many other features that make Rand's battle more exciting that LTT's battle.

 

And how do you know, that RJ initially started writing about 'Bob, the Dragon Reborn of the 5th age' and decided to drop it and come back to 'Rand the Dragon Reborn'? Hehe

 

 

BTW, Great Lord of the Dark, I seem to recall you declaring that you will not be participating here anymore?