The Dark One's death

[Cockta]

But why is TAR so close to teh DO? Does this mean that people who are able to visit TAR, comes closer to the DO, if coming close to the DO is actually possible. Was it that SG was the place where the pattern was weakest, and that is why people can hear the DO, if they come close enough?

[Jehaine]

Yup, but i couldn't show it on the figure because SG is a place, not a time.

 

And yes, TAR is closer to the DO's prison. Remember, the few times we see SG reality is mentioned to be slightly messed up in there. In TAR however, the same holds true, leading me to believe that it would indeed be in between there. Of course, this would also mean that the reality-distorting effect the DO has would be even stronger in TAR SG, but i can't recall a specific moment from the top of my head right now.

[RAND AL THOR]

The Bore is supposedly everywhere but can be most easily perceived at the physical destination in Randland known as Shayol Ghul. I have never really understood this perfectly despite RJ's several attempts (using interestingly elusive words) to explain it. However, the general impression is that the pattern is 'weak' or 'thin' at Shayol Ghul, which is why the Bore is most easily perceived there.

 

I have always wondered how the Forsaken (being physical entities) were bound on the other side of the Bore. The problem is that most of us view the Bore as a 'hole' but I don't think its supposed to be like that. Okay, I'm just clueless now.

 

Jehaine's model represents the cyclic nature of time and the exclusion of the DO from it. Hence I do not think it is possible to place any location, including TAR, on it. I had the exact imagine in my mind, except that the DO was hovering about on the outside of the wheel, instead of inside but this one seems to make more sense in regards to the 'imprison' idea.

[Dakeyras]

The Creator, by the way, would exist outside of the Wheel, within the Pattern.

 

I was under the impression that the wheel created the pattern. "The wheel weaves" refers to the wheel weaving the pattern surely. So if the wheel came first, why would the creator, who was "alive" before either be in the pattern which came after his making of the wheel?

 

I'd have placed the creator outside both considering he made the wheel which inturn weaves the pattern, which requires no input from the creator.

[Cockta]

Wow, this is reaqlly beginning to get complicated. Can someon eplease make another drawing?  ???

[Sabio]

If I can believe a scientist that I have never seen, but that tells me to believe that animals several times larger than elephants walked the Earth, then why can't Randlanders, and other people in that weorld believe in Trollocs. They actually have hard, and not to mention fresh evidence that Trollocs exist., but people in Altara, for example, believe that Trollocs are only myth, and that they are in stories for children.

 

Lets say for the last 1000 years elephants have been running out of the woods and killing folks, do you really want to preserve them if you find them dead so you can remember what they look like 2000 years from now?  Folks don't start out wanting to forget but it will happen over time and the average joe out there has not a clue about ages repeating and the DO coming back someday.  After the last battle trying to survive will most likely take priority over stuffing and preserving a Trolloc.

[Cockta]

Yes, that is the sad fact. But who knows, maybe Rand will do something special in order for people to remeber not only teh DO, but him as well, and the struggle between him and the DO. Maybe straigthening his reputaion wouldn't be so bad, because if Rand srewes up majorly on this oen, the next dragon will have a hard time getting supporters.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Yes, that is the sad fact. But who knows, maybe Rand will do something special in order for people to remeber not only teh DO, but him as well, and the struggle between him and the DO. Maybe straigthening his reputaion wouldn't be so bad, because if Rand srewes up majorly on this oen, the next dragon will have a hard time getting supporters.

 

He did, in order to comemorate his struggle with the DO he incorporated himself into a popular game as a piece called "The Fisher."  Oops guess that didn't work as well as he'd hoped (LOL)

[Jehaine]

Actually, that 'something special' would be the new Karaethon Cycle. He's using it as a 'Dragon Reborn Manual' himself, following the prophecies as he interprets them. It should only be fitting that he leaves a book of instructions to his next incarnation in the same way.

 

Works better than telling people about it. 'Memories become legend, and even legend fades to myth' after all. Regardless, books are far more true to the original than even a couple of generations of word of mouth. Which means that in order to increase his chances of succeeding the next time, he'd have to make sure at least one copy survives until then.

[Sabio]

Too bad his gleeman died  :D

[Roxinos]

The Dark One is sealed at the very center of the Wheel, requiring him to break through the Wheel itself (Bore!) in order to be freed. He'd also exist in a place outside the Pattern there, because the actual movement of time relative to his position would be negatable. Sealed as close as they were, the Forsaken aged slower as well, further supporting my theory as Aginor and Balthamel looked nowhere as young as the others that were sealed closer to the DO.

 

Other than that, the same is true for what we know: The Wheel turns, Ages come and go, and TAR keeps the Heroes within easy access in case they are needed in the Wheel. Time passes differently there after all (closer to the center = less 'turning speed' of the wheel).

 

Also, this model supports what i believe that there needed to be something to actually seal the DO with. Added to the fact that these two events (sealing and the creation of the Wheel) conveniently happened around the same time, deducting that he is sealed into the Wheel itself is no more than logical, especially considering the seals on the patch LTT made physically existed within the Wheel itself.

 

The Creator, by the way, would exist outside of the Wheel, within the Pattern.

 

There is nothing to suppose that any of that is true. All you know is that the Great Lord was imprisoned at the moment of creation outside of the Pattern. So.... That entire thing is supposition. There is nothing to make your belief any more valid than the belief that the Great Lord is simply in a prison outside of the Pattern separated from both the Wheel and the Age Lace.

 

But you suppose that the Wheel is specifically in the shape of a Wheel rather than the Wheel just being some metaphor for the cyclical nature of time. You also suppose that because the World of Dreams is nearer the center of the Wheel, it explains the time difference within the World of Dreams. However, that's not the case. Within your image, the World of Dreams would always be faster than the real world. However, that's not the case. It's been said that 5 minutes in the World of Dreams could be 5 days or 5 seconds. It doesn't matter. It's a seemingly random effect that not even the Heroes who exist almost exclusively in the World of Dreams can quantify.

 

The Great Lord does not have to break through the Wheel itself to be freed. He merely has to break through is prison, the Wheel may remain intact. He must destroy the Wheel to take ultimate control over the Age Lace, but that's just the way time works. Whatever is spinning out time must be destroyed in order for the Great Lord to write his own history. Also, the seals are represented physically within the Pattern, but that doesn't mean they physically exist within the Pattern. The seals are like the Bore, they omnipresent. The difference between the seals and the Bore, however, is that while the Bore can only be felt more easily in one position (Shayol Ghul) the seals can be felt more intensely wherever you have the cuendillar discs.

 

Also, supposing that the creation of the Wheel and then the Great Lord's imprisonment only leads to one logical conclusion as to the location of the Great Lord's prison, is quite faulty. It is one conclusion, but it is not the only conclusion.

 

Now, it's entirely possible that the Wheel of Time exists the way you believe it does. But it is not the only logical conclusion, and you're also applying physical rules to something which has always been referred to semi-metaphorically.

[Jehaine]

Umm... actually, the World of Dreams in my image would be slower. The outer circle of the wheel, where the threads are, is located further from the center and would therefore be moving faster than where i placed TAR. The scale is more than likely off as i wanted to keep the text easy to read.

 

But aside from that, you correctly state that all i have to go by is supposition. It wasn't in one of the Books, nor has RJ described it (as far as i know). Being a discussions forum, i merely post my opinion of what i believe to be the truth, others post theirs, and then we discuss how sound each others theories are. At times, there aren't that many facts to work with (like in this case) but that never stopped people before. It is my conclusion, and i have no intention of sliding it forward as the only possible one.

 

As for the DO being sealed in the Wheel... In order for me to keep you from leaving an area, i'd need to have a means to keep you from leaving. If not, it'd have been the equivalent of me dragging a line in the dirt and saying you can't cross it, then expect you to obey.

 

The world is physical, agreed. Given that the Creator and the Dark One are incorporeal, physical bounds would have no effect on them. The Wheel however, is incorporeal as well as it is otherwise undetectable through natural means: With the exception of the Creator and the Dark One, no one can see, much less manipulate, the actual threads. I concluded from that that the Wheel had enough similarities to form a barrier the Dark One could not simply phase through. If people disagree, they are of course more than welcome to say so. ^^

[Roxinos]

Umm... actually, the World of Dreams in my image would be slower. The outer circle of the wheel, where the threads are, is located further from the center and would therefore be moving faster than where i placed TAR. The scale is more than likely off as i wanted to keep the text easy to read.

 

Logically, if it were arranged into a Wheel, then while looking outside it would appear that the further to the edge you get, the faster the Wheel is turning whereas the opposite is true as you move towards the center. There is a greater circumference along the edge then along the rim of the World of Dreams that you drew up meaning that less time passes in the World of Dreams than in the real world for a balancing effect, so they're always at the same point in time.

 

But as I said, this is simply not the case. Sometimes time in the World of Dreams can be extended so that hours or days in it is just a few minutes or hours in the real world, and vice versa. If it were limited to 5 minutes in the world of dreams being 5 hours in the real world, then you'd have more evidence to support your point, but that's not the way it works. So time for the World of Dreams simply does not correlate in any logical way with time in the real world. So at the very least, you must remove the World of Dreams from your model of the Wheel of Time.

 

As for the DO being sealed in the Wheel... In order for me to keep you from leaving an area, i'd need to have a means to keep you from leaving. If not, it'd have been the equivalent of me dragging a line in the dirt and saying you can't cross it, then expect you to obey.

 

The world is physical, agreed. Given that the Creator and the Dark One are incorporeal, physical bounds would have no effect on them. The Wheel however, is incorporeal as well as it is otherwise undetectable through natural means: With the exception of the Creator and the Dark One, no one can see, much less manipulate, the actual threads. I concluded from that that the Wheel had enough similarities to form a barrier the Dark One could not simply phase through.

 

You first state that the Great Lord cannot be simply sealed away like drawing a line in the dirt, that there must be something to hold him back. Then you say that the Creator, the Wheel, and the Great Lord are all incorporeal. Why would you assume that an incorporeal entity is limited by the same things in the same ways that you are limited? From the power the Creator shows at creation within the Wheel of Time world (simply sealing the Great Lord away as an afterthought), it would stand that you cannot comprehend what could or would contain an incorporeal entity.

 

See, the thing about arguing this is that none of it is based in logical assumption. It's all based in predisposed ideas in the realm of incorporeal identities and trying to balance what you know of our world with how you would imagine a world outside of reality to work.

 

Anyway, to go back to my original point, you can't assume that the Wheel of Time is incorporeal in the same sense that the Great Lord and/or the Creator are incorporeal. In fact, it's best to assume the Wheel is simply a metaphor applied to the collective consciousness of humanity to explain how the world works.

 

I say it is applied to the collective consciousness of humanity because the idea seems to persist through the many turnings of the Wheel. And that is just generally unlikely through natural means of transference of information through time. It certainly would not be held as a generally accepted analogy if it were being transferred through time naturally.

 

If people disagree, they are of course more than welcome to say so.

 

I believe I just did.

[Dakeyras]

Actually, that 'something special' would be the new Karaethon Cycle. He's using it as a 'Dragon Reborn Manual' himself, following the prophecies as he interprets them. It should only be fitting that he leaves a book of instructions to his next incarnation in the same way.

 

Works better than telling people about it. 'Memories become legend, and even legend fades to myth' after all. Regardless, books are far more true to the original than even a couple of generations of word of mouth. Which means that in order to increase his chances of succeeding the next time, he'd have to make sure at least one copy survives until then.

 

Not to distract from the topic at hand but the Dragon didn't create the Karaethon Cycle. Not even an earlier incarnation. The Karaetheon Cycle is a collection of prophecies that were foretold by Aes Sedai during the breaking concerning the next incarnation of the Dragon.

 

How would Rand know what his next incarnation needs to do? Rand hasn't got the talent of foretelling.

[Roxinos]

How would Rand know what his next incarnation needs to do? Rand hasn't got the talent of foretelling.

 

What better way to know what to do then to do it yourself.

 

Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He can tell the next Dragon Reborn what he needs to do because Rand has done it.

 

Not to distract from the topic at hand but the Dragon didn't create the Karaethon Cycle. Not even an earlier incarnation. The Karaetheon Cycle is a collection of prophecies that were foretold by Aes Sedai during the breaking concerning the next incarnation of the Dragon.

 

Not that I'm disagreeing with you on this part. I was just clarifying.

[Dakeyras]

Actually Lews Therin was the previous Dragon and he hasn't done anything like what Rands done. If you dismiss the fact that no turning of the wheel is ever exactly the same, Rand's Karaetheon Cycle would have to exist from this 3rd age all the way to the next 3rd age. What's that? Millions of years possibly?

 

The next incarnation of the Dragon might be in the 6th age when the Stone of Tear has been destroyed. Fat lot of good a book saying "Take the stone of Tear" will do then.

[Roxinos]

Actually Lews Therin was the previous Dragon and he hasn't done anything like what Rands done.

 

Jehaine wasn't talking 'bout the Dragon telling the next Dragon Reborn. When I clarified, neither was I. We were talking about the Dragon Reborn, Rand, telling the next Dragon Reborn.

 

Rand's Karaetheon Cycle would have to exist from this 3rd age all the way to the next 3rd age.

 

Hey, I never agreed with it. I was merely clarifying. It does seem highly unlikely, something I mentioned in my last long post on this thread.

 

The next incarnation of the Dragon might be in the 6th age when the Stone of Tear has been destroyed.

 

I highly doubt the differences between turnings of the Wheel are that massive. They're most likely merely subtle differences. But there's no specific way to tell. Regardless, it must be in the Third Age. The Ages are marked by major events. The Third Age is simply the Age in which the Dragon Reborn fights.

 

Though, I'm not going to get into any more detailed description of the Third Age than that because it risks toying into the greater argument on whether or not the Great Lord will be killed and how great the differences are between this turning and the last. I've already put my two cents in on the former, I can't on the latter.

[Mr Ares]

First of all Mr Ares, calm down, once more.

I am calm.

All humans are born as equals

But some are more equal than others.

 

Tell me, how, and why does people believe that big giant animals, called the dinosaurs walked the Earth , until they were all eradicated 65 million years ago. Scientists have bones, and they say that these bones are from animals called dinosaurs who walked the Earth 65 million years ago. Why do people believe these scientists when for all we know, they are lying bigtime so that they can have a job, and a salary.

Because that is what the evidence suggests. Is there a point to this? Does the existence of dinosaurs prove that dinosaurs were created by an evil god? Does the existence of dinosaurs indicate the existence of an evil god? If not, then when should producing the bones of Trollocs necessarily indicate anything other than that Trollocs existed? Not that they were created by an evil god. Not that said god exists.

 

Also, even though Rand presumably heard the Creator say he would not participate in this struggle, Rand could pray to the Creator. If it really was the Creator who spoke to Rand, then Rand know the Creator really exist, and therefore could pray, or ask, call it whatever you wish, the Creator for advice/ knowledge, because if the Creator see everything, the Creator could help Rand by telling him for example approximately how many Trollocs there are.

He could ask. But when said voice has said I WILL TAKE NO PART expecting assistance is not that wise. Why would Rand pray when he doesn't think it will do any good, that people are in it alone, with no divine help? Might as well expect an atheist to pray.

 

I still think you are a cocky bastard who need a good slap in the face, maybe by Nynaeve.

You're more than welcome to try.

 

Only the words used ('imprison'' date=' 'sealed' and such) imply more that said child has been locked in his room, with only a keyhole called SG to peek out of, rather than not being able to reach the top shelf.[/quote']The only limit we know of on His freedom is an inability to touch the Wheel and the Pattern. To you, that may imply more. But that is all that is known. And yet, you believe that the Wheel was Created to imprision Him away from the Wheel? That is, the purpose of the Wheel is to keep Him away from the Wheel?

 

If I can believe a scientist that I have never seen' date=' but that tells me to believe that animals several times larger than elephants walked the Earth, then why can't Randlanders, and other people in that world believe in Trollocs?[/quote']They can. When presented with the evidence, they do. But in 10,000 years, when only bones remain of the Shadowspawn, when Shai'tan can no longer touch the world, why would people believe a small pile of old bones and a couple of old documents? "Oh, these bones were created by an evil god in His attempt to rule the world..." A bit more far-fetched. We have evidence that the pyramids existed (they are there. And pretty hard to miss). We have some evidence of what they believed. But that doesn't mean we have to agree with those beliefs. It doesn't mean we have to worship Ra. And the Randlanders of the late 4th, early 5th Ages and later won't have to believe that Trollocs were anything other than a naturally evolved/intelligently designed/created/insert-crazy-belief-of-people-in-late-4th-early-5th-Age-Randland species, unless they have evidence that they are. They won't have to accept that they were created to free an evil god, unless they have evidence that they were. They might be more willing to accept that people of the "primitive" Third Age were willing to accept tales of an evil god wanting to be freed. That is, they think the Third Agers thought that but didn't themselves think that. You're really confused now, aren't you?

 

And yes' date=' TAR is closer to the DO's prison. Remember, the few times we see SG reality is mentioned to be slightly messed up in there. In TAR however, the same holds true, leading me to believe that it would indeed be in between there. Of course, this would also mean that the reality-distorting effect the DO has would be even stronger in TAR SG, but i can't recall a specific moment from the top of my head right now.[/quote']Funny that you can't go to SG in T'a'r, isn't it?

 

I highly doubt the differences between turnings of the Wheel are that massive. They're most likely merely subtle differences.

The Pattern of an Age will look the same from a distance, from one Third Age to the next, but from up close it could look very different indeed.

[Roxinos]

He could ask. But when said voice has said I WILL TAKE NO PART expecting assistance is not that wise. Why would Rand pray when he doesn't think it will do any good, that people are in it alone, with no divine help? Might as well expect an atheist to pray.

 

I think it's a bit more severe than that. I think your last sentence is closer to the truth of the matter. The people of Randland don't think of the Creator, the Wheel, and the Power in the way the Western part of our world view the deity which seems to be most prominent when talking about Western religions. The people who seem to take a turn towards worship in Randland are all relatively insane. They all hold views which are out of the norm for Randland. The Whitecloaks with their reverence of the Light and the Source (to the point where they kill channelers because they do not think anyone should be channeling the Source). The Dragonsworn (well, the leader) with their reverence of Rand and the Light.

 

Simply put, Rand would never think to ask the Creator because the Creator is not a being which you ask favors of or questions of. If anything, Randland treats the Creator as the deists treated their creator during the Enlightenment of our world.

[Thorum]

As to the Wheel: the picture looks very much like how I imagine it.

 

- A wheel as a metaphore for circular time? Time is generally accepted as the third dimension. Take away 2 of the others, and BAM: you've got a wheel which is time. The Wheel of Time.

 

- The spokes are not equidistant. I don't remember where I read this, but I'm quite sure of this.

 

- I would treat Tel'aran'Rhiod the same way as the portal stone worlds: different worlds altogether. We've already got the wheel of the "main" world. Suppose that it is the section of one arm of a larger (hollow) ring (with a new dimension). Every possible section of this larger ring, is another world. Tel'aran'Rhiod is special. Maybe because it's exactly opposite (and thus in the same dimension - a second Wheel a lot further away)? Just a guess.

 

- The Dark One is emprisoned "Outside of the Pattern". That would mean he's basically unable to enter our dimensions. Exactly like we are not able to enter the fifth, sixth, etc. dimensions. The Bore is like a trans-dimensional shift.

 

- And, like I said before, if you wanna get personal: don't.

[Roxinos]

A wheel as a metaphore for circular time? Time is generally accepted as the third dimension. Take away 2 of the others, and BAM: you've got a wheel which is time. The Wheel of Time.

 

Time is generally mentioned as being the fourth dimension. Along with space. That doesn't mean it's generally accepted as being anything but a measurement of change in space.

 

But where the hell did you get that if you remove any of the dimensions (length, width, height) you get a wheel?

 

The spokes are not equidistant. I don't remember where I read this, but I'm quite sure of this.

 

Nope. They're not. Something which is generally accepted when following the idea of the Wheel as a metaphor. You accept that the spokes are not equidistant from one another because Ages vary in length.

 

I would treat Tel'aran'Rhiod the same way as the portal stone worlds: different worlds altogether. We've already got the wheel of the "main" world. Suppose that it is the section of one arm of a larger (hollow) ring (with a new dimension). Every possible section of this larger ring, is another world. Tel'aran'Rhiod is special. Maybe because it's exactly opposite (and thus in the same dimension - a second Wheel a lot further away)? Just a guess.

 

That's not how the wheel metaphor works. The Wheel of Time spins the Age Lace. The Age Lace is the combination of every Pattern. Patterns themselves are separated into Ages. The Portal Stones allow someone to travel between Patterns within the Age Lace.

 

The Dark One is emprisoned "Outside of the Pattern". That would mean he's basically unable to enter our dimensions. Exactly like we are not able to enter the fifth, sixth, etc. dimensions. The Bore is like a trans-dimensional shift.

 

You're enjoying those "dimensions" of yours. And you're trying to apply theoretical reasoning to both an incorporeal being of evil and a metaphor. Uncool, man.

[Thorum]

A wheel as a metaphore for circular time? Time is generally accepted as the third dimension. Take away 2 of the others, and BAM: you've got a wheel which is time. The Wheel of Time.

 

Time is generally mentioned as being the fourth dimension. Along with space. That doesn't mean it's generally accepted as being anything but a measurement of change in space.

 

But where the hell did you get that if you remove any of the dimensions (length, width, height) you get a wheel?

 

Fourth indeed. That's what you get for not rereading. Space is the combination of the three dimensions we can see (length, width, height) - to keep it simple.  All dimensions must be circular (how can a dimension stop suddenly?), so if you take away two dimensions, you've got a wheel. Or a ring, or a circle, ... However you wanna call it.

 

 

That's not how the wheel metaphor works. The Wheel of Time spins the Age Lace. The Age Lace is the combination of every Pattern. Patterns themselves are separated into Ages. The Portal Stones allow someone to travel between Patterns within the Age Lace.

 

The only difference with my theory is that you call the second (giant) ring the Age Lace.

 

 

The Dark One is emprisoned "Outside of the Pattern". That would mean he's basically unable to enter our dimensions. Exactly like we are not able to enter the fifth, sixth, etc. dimensions. The Bore is like a trans-dimensional shift.

 

You're enjoying those "dimensions" of yours. And you're trying to apply theoretical reasoning to both an incorporeal being of evil and a metaphor. Uncool, man.

 

it's uncorporeal because it doesn't live in space (see above).

[Roxinos]

Incorporeal in this sense does not mean that it simply does not have the dimensions which we perceive. If the Great Lord were a sixth-dimensional being, then it would be a corporeal being. Just not one in which we can perceive.

[Thorum]

If you're getting VERY theoretical.

 

I just wonder: how can an incorporeal being (your definition) be imprisonned? If it has no dimensions?

[Roxinos]

If you can imagine an incorporeal being, I don't see why you can't imagine an incorporeal entity being imprisoned.

 

And I'm not the one getting theoretical. I'm not the one who brought up dimensions beyond the ones we know exist.

 

What the hell am I saying? This whole bloody thread is theoretical. I don't think you can get theoretical in degrees.