Mat vs Galad and Gawyn

[RAND AL THOR]

There is a scene where Mat fights both Galad and Gawyn and wins. Is this practically possible? Lets look at the odds against Mat:

 

1) He has just been under coma (practically) for several days and has been wasting away for several months. He has just recovered from severe damage.

 

2) Gawyn killed Hammar and Coulin who were the Warder teachers. They were most likely very skilled. And yet Gawyn was able to kill them. Furthermore, Mat was able to beat Gawyn! I might point out that Hammar and Coulin were killed in Book 4 but this duel occured in book 3. But there isn't much of a time gap.

 

3) Galad was able to kill the Commander of the Whitecloaks, who has an excellent reputation as a blademaster.

 

So, is it even possible for Mat to win in these circumstances? And lets not forget the weapons they were using....

 

This was all before Mat got the memories so he's all on his own.

[trakand_01]

No, in real life I dont think it is possible but let's remember this is not real life and Mat is not 'ordinary guy'.

 

Plus...

 

1. A quarter staff has two ends, rather than one end like a weapon (sword) one might kill a couple of men at once with (how Gawyn killed the trainers later on). It's much easier to fight two combatants at once when you can hit each of them with one thrust - whilst they are trying to focus on ONE target (you) and get around your whirring staff.

 

2. There are few swords in the Two Rivers, but lots of long, pretty straight branches. It's quite likely Mat / Rand / Perrin / Wil etc would play-fight with quarter staffs.

 

3. It's Mat! It was important to the plot and the story not to mention his own character development that he defeat Gawyn and Galad.

 

I also imagine that it will important that it was Gawyn and Galad, as at some point in the future it's likely they're going to have to take some level of direction from him and it is important that the respect him.

 

While we're at it, I also dont think it's realistic that Rand would have been able to so precisely hit the Grolm in the 'other world' in quick succession.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Hehe did this question pop up after you saw my post under Unfair Fights?

 

I agree that Mat would have been used to using a staff, and you have to throw in the Ta'veren card, it affects everything

[Majsju]

Mat grew up using the quarterstaff, we have more than one reference to his amasingly quick hands, and he gets the benefit of surprise since the brothers does not take him seriously at first.

 

And a guy with a quarterstaff always beats a guy with a sword, unless the guy with the sword is much better.

[trakand_01]

Quite true - little boys who grow up stealing biscuits and washing tend to have quick hands - and quick minds.

 

A good hard wrap on the wrist (such as you may get from a qstaff) when holding a sword will likely make you let go, whereas a quarter staff is a much harder weapon to disarm.

[Mr Ares]

It was mentioned at the end of the fight that the only fight that the greatest swordsman ever, Jearom, ever lost was one against a guy with a staff. Plus there's Mat's luck. Not really all that unlikely.

[RAND AL THOR]

Valid arguements, my fellow posters. ;D

 

It is certainly true that Mat was being underestimated.

 

If the best swordsman was beaten by a guy with a quarterstaff, then I would most certainly expect everyone to abandon swords and begin quaterstaff training instead.

 

And a guy with a quarterstaff always beats a guy with a sword, unless the guy with the sword is much better.

 

Both Galad and Gawyn are very strong with the sword.

 

May I again point out Mat's health condition?

 

And while we're at it, how convincing is the fact that Hammar AND Coulin fell to Gawyn?

[Mr Ares]

If the best swordsman was beaten by a guy with a quarterstaff, then I would most certainly expect everyone to abandon swords and begin quaterstaff training instead.

They'd just get beaten by crossbowmen or archers. Or people with slings.

[Guest Toad]

And swords can be used where a quarterstaff cannot - narrow hallways, alleys, etc....

[CUBAREY]

The point in the greatest swordsmen being beaten only by a farmer with a quarterstaff is relevant for two reasons:

 

1. swordsmen will underestimate the ability of their opponent and the lethalness of the quarterstaff; and

2. swordsmen are unfamiliar with a quarterstaff, have very little idea how to defend themselves from it and how it can be used offensively.

 

Add Mat's Tava'vernness into the mix and you get Galad's and Gawans defeat.

[Kaznen]

Also as far as Galad's fight with Valda.

 

It had been at least a year since he joined the whitecloaks.  And during that time he was fighting Dragonsworn and Seanchan.  And he didn't exactly whoop Valda's butt. 

 

Describing the injuries he received, he was short of being carried off on a stretcher.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

Add Mat's Tava'vernness into the mix and you get Galad's and Gawans defeat.

 

Cheating cheating!

 

But I don't think ta'vereness is involved here. Being ta'veren increases the possibility of a particular event occuring. We didn't note any such event during the fight (except for the fight itself of course). eg, coins land on their side, people fall from an inn and live etc...

 

If a bird decided to drop its droppings on Galad's face during the fight, or if Egwene came walking by and distracted Gawyn I may call that ta'veren because those are events that are usually unlikely to happen and ta'vereness increases possibility.

[trakand_01]

If a bird decided to drop its droppings on Galad's face during the fight, or if Egwene came walking by and distracted Gawyn I may call that ta'veren because those are events that are usually unlikely to happen and ta'vereness increases possibility.

 

If Egwene had walked by, Galad and Gawyn both would have been so distracted that Mat could probably have stopped to catch his breath, polish his boots and pilfer whatever he could find from the brothers' pockets before they came to their senses!

[Safia al-Maaz]

The whole point of that fight was for Gawyn and Galad to realize swordsman were not invincible against nonswordsman.  It even says so in there.  And Mat has amazing skill with the qurterstaff anyway, so they didn't stand a chance back then.

[Razor]

Hello...Didn't Matt beat Couladin?  How about the Gollam?  How about everyone else he has fought?

[Guest Toad]

Hello...Didn't Matt beat Couladin?  How about the Gollam?  How about everyone else he has fought?

 

I don't know, the scene with Couladin didn't make the book.  But Mat sure got credit.

[Snowy Dawn]

``I don't know, the scene with Couladin didn't make the book.''

 

The fight wasn't directly described, but there was some account of it in Matt's reflections the following morning, whilst he is trying to defend himself against being turned into a hero :-)

[RAND AL THOR]

Mat vs Couladin occured at the end of book 5. By that time he had the memories too.

 

The Mat vs Gawyn/Galad was in Book 3.

 

To further discuss, what do you think about Rand's rapid skill-gaining in the use of a sword? Blademasters requires several years of intense training and experience to gain their title and yet Rand seems to be able to match their talent in a very short time period.

[D24g0n]

Before Rand even started learning how to use a sword, he had the mind trick with the flame down.  I imagine it would/did take years to learn and master that.  Rand also learned from possibly the greatest swordsman at that time, which is pretty big.  The last thing I can think of is that Rand is forced to learn.  For Rand, it is either learn or die.  Some people just pick things up quickly, and Rand seems to be one of them.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Theres also the fact that it was only a sparring match and not a fight to the death. Being in that mindset has an effect.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand isn't ( and never was ) only Rand.

 

Somewhere inside his pointy little skull has always lurked LTT - the man who created the sport of fencing in the AoL.  The man who was likely the foremost swordsman of his Age.

 

Thus for Rand, sword work would have come easier and more naturally than for almost anyone else.

[RAND AL THOR]

Before Rand even started learning how to use a sword, he had the mind trick with the flame down.  I imagine it would/did take years to learn and master that.  Rand also learned from possibly the greatest swordsman at that time, which is pretty big.  The last thing I can think of is that Rand is forced to learn.  For Rand, it is either learn or die.  Some people just pick things up quickly, and Rand seems to be one of them.

 

Rand learned the flame and the void from Tam for archery. It is doubtless very useful in his sword work but Tam did not teach him the sword. I doubt Rand had ever touched one before the trolloc attack.

 

I think it is safe to assume that there was no LTT in Rand's head until he first began to channel. I have no direct proof to back this up but I believe it is so.

[Asmo]

I think it is safe to assume that there was no LTT in Rand's head until he first began to channel. I have no direct proof to back this up but I believe it is so.

 

I doubt it. Lews Therin actually started talking some time after Rand began channeling, so the two events are not directly connected. It is most plausible that Lews Therin was always nested in the back of Rand's head. However, I really doubt he helped him with swordplay. His experiences only started oozing in on Rand's mind later on. Anyway, Rand went through a lot of hard training from Lan, and the Oneness was a natural technique for him. It's not hard to envision that he reached the blademaster level. Galad reached it, after all, and he's been in a lot less pressure to learn than Rand.

 

As for the topic at hand, Mat was probably faster than either Galad or Gawyn and could deliver perimetrical blows with the length of his staff, whereas Gawyn and Galad were limited by the shorter range of their blades. And as was mentioned, a quarterstaff is well-suited to fighting swords on open ground, as well as for fighting multiple opponents at once, whereas swords are best in one-on-ones.

[Kaznen]

The flame trick is the most important part of blademastery.  I imagine it takes years to learn and Rand already knew it.

 

Lan said that with that trick "they could do anything."

 

I tGH when Rand didn't use the flame and void he could barely swing his sword.

[42Bonzo88]

    The two points:

1. Rand. I know this has been brought up already, but I agree alot of the sword fighting masters use the Void and is also the hardest and most time consuming thing to learn. A big advantage. I think his ability to channel helps him be able to focus more also. No he's not using the power at the time, but the same balance that Rand has to use mentally to stay on the razor's edge with the power is the same as the void in my opinion.

 

2. Mat. I actually am listening to this part at home right now and listened to the battle, last night. Gawyn streaks toward Mat and Mat cuts him down almost at once. With only about two moves, Gawyn is now out of the picture, so technically he starts the battle with two but the majority of the battle is with one. Galad. Yes, Mat has been in a sick bay, and if he didn't take Gawyn out of the picture at the beginning, I don't think he would have won. Then with only Galad and no distractions, it is very hard to defend yourself with a quarterstaff bearing down on you.