Semirhage - a dimwit?

[Luckers]

Semirhage expected victory.  She is not new to high-risk plans though.  She has already been captured twice before, so I highly disagree with your above statement.  Semi probably always has a plan in the back of her mind on how she could escape if things go sour.  She more than any other Forsaken knows that it is possible to get captured.

 

Thats a big assumption. Yes Semirhage is willing to take risks--but this plan was not even 'high-risk' to her--from her--very informed--position her plan was perfect.

 

To expect from this that she would have developed some sinister plot for when she got captured is extreme and unlikely.

 

There was no plan B--which is not to say she won't seek to use her new situation to the best advantage.

 

Semirhage would think the new girls have wonderful toys because she was at the battle of the Cleansing, which RJ confirmed. This is late into the story now.  A lot of the tricks and surprises have already happened.  Semirhage witnessed death, destruction, and miracles at the Battle of the Cleansing.  She witnessed her whole attack crew of Forsaken get held off by a few of these 'new girls.'  Semirhage had to have conceded that she could get captured.

 

She didn't, you know. She witnessed the unalligned Forsaken be beaten back by an organised group of defenders. Nothing in that prepared her to expect what occurred in her trap with Rand. she did not encounter any of the miraculous ter'angreal--everything she saw fit within her understanding of the world.

 

You seem to be thinking that what Rand's defenders achieved at the Cleansing was miraculous in Semirhage's eyes--it wasn't... circles of organised defenders, even less talented ones, would have been able to hold back the Forsaken. Semirhage would  not have been surprised by any of that. Ter'angreal that detect inverted weaves, and break distance weaves, however, would have been a shock. At the Cleansing modern channelers might have been more vivacious than expected for half trained children, but they were still half trained children. The attack however involved ter'angreal that were made by someone BETTER trained than Semirhage. See the distinction?

[Pandemonium]

"There was no plan B--which is not to say she won't seek to use her new situation to the best advantage."

 

Either way, the plan will probably still ended up being close to the same.  My main contention was Semirhage probably has inside help from Shadar Haran.  What do you think about that?  I personally don't think she would have made an attack on this scale without the approval of 'the hand.' The DO seems to be very picky about what he wants to happen with Rand. Shadar Haran was privy to a lot more details about what went on at the Battle of the Cleansing than Semirhage was.  SH was probably aware of the ter'angreal that stops weaves, ect.  So in my eyes, there may be another possibility which no one has mentioned yet.

 

What if Shadar Haran had a plan B that he didn't tell Semirhage about?  This is probably the most likely scenario.  SH might have expected a failure more than Semirhage did, and he might be prepared to act in case Semirhage was captured. 

 

 

"You seem to be thinking that what Rand's defenders achieved at the Cleansing was miraculous in Semirhage's eyes--it wasn't... circles of organised defenders, even less talented ones, would have been able to hold back the Forsaken."

 

When I said the word miracle, I was referring to the cleansing of the taint itself.  Semirhage must have been at least a little bit nervous about all the sa'angreal power that Rand displayed at the Cleansing.  To me, it is the sa'angreal that would have made Semirhage more nervous than anything else.  How could she negate that advantage?  I just don't see how she could feel 100% assured of victory when the light has that kind of power.  This is why I also read that she likely has a Plan B.  Plus, she was so quick to begin spreading chaos after she was captured.  Maybe Semirhage thought that Rand wouldn't be bold enough to walk into enemy territory with a sa'angreal for fear of it being captured, I don't know.

 

Rand is actually kind of stupid to walk into that trap without trying to make some kind of inverted shield to protect his group. 

 

But, even if I am wrong, I still suspect that Shaidar Haran has another Plan B of his own.  I would be interested to hear your opinion on that. 

 

 

 

 

[lordofsoup]

2 things,

 

first, I would be a lot more scared of Rand, who is half mad than of semi.  You put her on an a'dam, and then make her tell you everything necessary to heal rand.  If that doesnt work, then LTT will at least know the weave for compulsion, and could show it to someone who could. 

 

second, at the cleansing, couldent Rand have just started to channel a lot(to trying to cleanse saiden, just a lot of channeling), then when all the Forsaken came, killed/captured them all, and then went back to the cleansing of saiden?

[Mcpatrick]

2 things,

 

first, I would be a lot more scared of Rand, who is half mad than of semi.  You put her on an a'dam, and then make her tell you everything necessary to heal rand.  If that doesnt work, then LTT will at least know the weave for compulsion, and could show it to someone who could. 

 

second, at the cleansing, couldent Rand have just started to channel a lot(to trying to cleanse saiden, just a lot of channeling), then when all the Forsaken came, killed/captured them all, and then went back to the cleansing of saiden?

 

Because once Rand starting drawing upon both of the Choedan Kal, he stopped being aware of anything else around him. Surrendering to Saidar, and controlling the massive (world melting) amount of Saidin flowing into him took every last bit of his concentration.

[Luckers]

Either way, the plan will probably still ended up being close to the same.  My main contention was Semirhage probably has inside help from Shadar Haran.  What do you think about that?  I personally don't think she would have made an attack on this scale without the approval of 'the hand.' The DO seems to be very picky about what he wants to happen with Rand. Shadar Haran was privy to a lot more details about what went on at the Battle of the Cleansing than Semirhage was.  SH was probably aware of the ter'angreal that stops weaves, ect.  So in my eyes, there may be another possibility which no one has mentioned yet.

 

I'm less certain. Why would Semirhage have informed anyone about her intended actions? She is not Moghedian or Cyndane--she accepts that Shaidar Haren and Moridin have power for now, but she plans for ways she can step above either. And before you say it Semirhage does not think of Shaidar Haren as being the Dark One imbodied--she thinks Shaidar Haren is strange for a Myrrdraal, and has been placed above her, so she accepts his authority, but she never even conciders that he might be the Dark One, or some aspect of himself.

 

She had no intention of killing Rand, thus she was breaking no orders. And in capturing Rand she would have elevated herself in the eyes of the Dark One.

 

As for your comment about Shaidar Haren knowing more of the details than we do--why? What makes you suggest that?

 

When I said the word miracle, I was referring to the cleansing of the taint itself.  Semirhage must have been at least a little bit nervous about all the sa'angreal power that Rand displayed at the Cleansing.  To me, it is the sa'angreal that would have made Semirhage more nervous than anything else.  How could she negate that advantage?  I just don't see how she could feel 100% assured of victory when the light has that kind of power.  This is why I also read that she likely has a Plan B.  Plus, she was so quick to begin spreading chaos after she was captured.  Maybe Semirhage thought that Rand wouldn't be bold enough to walk into enemy territory with a sa'angreal for fear of it being captured, I don't know.

 

Power wouldn't matter in her plan. The purpose of her plan was that she could get close enough to Rand without him being aware and then use inverted flows to put Rand and his companions in such pain they couldn't think of channeling. No matter if Rand was channeling through the Choedan Kal at the time that plan would have worked, and Semirhage had no reason to expect discovery.

 

Rand is actually kind of stupid to walk into that trap without trying to make some kind of inverted shield to protect his group. 

 

I'm not sure such a shield is possible--moving and all that. We have never seen anyone do anything like that.

 

But, even if I am wrong, I still suspect that Shaidar Haran has another Plan B of his own.  I would be interested to hear your opinion on that. 

 

I don't think Shaidar Haren knew of the plan, or had any thoughts on it at all.

 

first, I would be a lot more scared of Rand, who is half mad than of semi.  You put her on an a'dam, and then make her tell you everything necessary to heal rand.  If that doesnt work, then LTT will at least know the weave for compulsion, and could show it to someone who could. 

 

The most expedient method would be to bond her with the Extra Bit. Compelled obeidience provided with a tracking system, a sense of her emotions, and the fact that she would likely die if the man she were bonded to were killed....

 

That being said Semirhage's danger comes from her self-control and cold intellect. She would, in my opinion, be a more dangerous advessary than Rand. But then its that old argument--subtlty against brute force. And I suppose Rand does have his own form of cunning.

 

second, at the cleansing, couldent Rand have just started to channel a lot(to trying to cleanse saiden, just a lot of channeling), then when all the Forsaken came, killed/captured them all, and then went back to the cleansing of saiden?

 

Well that plan has the same problems as using Callandor. All the strength in the world doesn't let you know where your enemy are.

 

Besides if you think thats stupid remember Rand initially intended to Cleanse saidin with just him and Nynaeve. Without Cadsuane's efforts he would have been killed.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

We will see what happens when they strap an adam on her and make her heal Rand.

They are unlikely to do that. It gives her too good an opportunity to kill him.

 

What if Shadar Haran had a plan B that he didn't tell Semirhage about? This is probably the most likely scenario.

The most likely scenario is one that is completely unsupported by the evidence? That involves a character we don't even know to be involved also having a plan B? That seems a tad unlikely.

[silent_spectre]

I see Semi's plan as a good plan.  She has already sowed discord in Seanchan and as far as she knows, Tuon is dead as well.  So we have a Seanchan in civil war, a headless Seanchan in Randland,  the WT is split, the BT has a rotten core, and even the WCs are broken  Remove the Dragon Reborn from that picture and the world is in absolute chaos with no one able to take the reigns.

 

It may seem like a big gamble, but the arguments for her disguise being fail proof and lack of knowledge of certain ter'angreal make the plan seem to have a high degree of success.  Why not simply kill Rand, that will be for later, but rest assured that there is something in that in the next 3 books.

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

Rand is actually kind of stupid to walk into that trap without trying to make some kind of inverted shield to protect his group.

 

He probably did not feel the need because Cadsuane had already prepared an inverted shield (which stopped the initial attack of lightning).

[csarmi]

Do we actually know what she had prepared? Or make a good guess even?

 

Other.

 

Earlier this thread there ws some talk that: RJ made a mistake. It supposedely turned out the forsaken could just easily destroy countries, despite that for all along we were lead to believe they were just simple humans, strong channelers with a lot of experience and that's all. The examples were Graendal and Semirhage, taking down Seanchan and Shara respectively. RJ wanted to wrap up these lines too fast, so they say.

 

It bugged me so bad that I want to react on this because I didn't see anything really convincing arguments against that.  Though it's really simple in my opinion.

 

First of all, any of the stronger channelers in the series could cause a lot of trouble with some backup and neatly formed plans. It doesn't even take a channeler, take the example of Thom's playing of Da'es Deamar. The Chosen don't seem to be so very special.

 

Second, we don't know how much work it took for them to do these feats. Actually, evidence seem to support that both women must have put a LOT of work into it AND for a long time. They certainly had a lot of time and it is very probably that it required a lot of careful planning (and probably some killing and fireworks in the end to blow it up).

 

Third, both are very vulnerable societies because of there ruling system and the role the channelers play. It shouldn't be very hard to destabilize them.

 

For example, this might be all it takes to set the whole Seanchan on fire:

 

1) Kill the imperial family and do some more to strengthen some parties and turn them vs each other.

2) Release a lot of channelers

3) Reveal the sul'dam channeling widely enough

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

I said Jordan made a mistake because of all you just mentioned plus a few other things besides.

 

Take Seanchan - since we know next to nothing about Shara and how things are organized there.

 

From Tuon we know that assassination is a commonly used tool for advancement.  Seanchan nobility, and particularly the Imperial family, is as bad as the Forsaken when it comes to scheming and acting against each other.  Thus they all have layer upon layer of security to prevent it.  The Empress, may she live forever, most of all.

 

Regular Army.  Sul'dam and damane.  Watchers and Seekers.  Deathwatch Guards.  Gardeners. Personal bodyguards with hidden abilities.  And who knows what else.

 

Semirhage blew through all of it and killed the entire Imperial Family.  Alone and unaided so far as we know.  In between Kaffe Klatches, meetings with Bashere, supervising her agents, and indulging her whims.  Didn't so much as break a nail either. EDIT:  She actually seems to have fit it in sometime during the 12 days between the Cleansing and when we see her in the Prologue to KOD. /EDIT

 

That's an enormous amount of offensive and defensive firepower wrapped up in one woman.  Too much.  Too godlike.

[Luckers]

The simple ability to travel and to invert and reverse weaves, and to hide the ability to channel explain all of these. The same method could have been used in the Tower itself prior to Nynaeve capturing moghedian--and likely would have had the same effect.

[Braus]

What mistake did jordan do? i mean i dont find it "op" to be able to set seanchan and shara in chaos alone. Not if u are a forsaken. To be able to do it a 2nd time tho, im not sure :) but its kinda important to remember that these forsaken or anyone similar to them haven't been meet for thousands of years.

 

Well... first of all about Semirhage, being able to start rebillions in seanchan.

 

She had a high position that gave her alot of access, i can pressume, to anywhere the imperial family was.

 

She is a "Aes Sedai" from AOL, she knows so much that no Damane or Sul'damne knows. That is, traveling/compulsion/inverted weaves/disguises with the power, etc. And Seanchan cant counter something they dont know, they dont have people like cadsuane with a hair full of ter angreals, or nynanvea who forced mogadien to teach her alot of those things. That knowledge is extremly extremly powerful if played correctly. And as far as i know except the part where she tortures a aes sedai and her warder somewhere, semirhage has had quite some time to use that knowledge. She could even compulse people into killing each other, right?

 

As far as i remember from parts connected to seanchan, they have always had rebellions, its not something uncommon. They cant travel afterall, and ive always felt like seanchan is extremly similar to Rome, in someways. That is, in rome there were a "imperial family" so to say, and the only way to get into it was to be adopted or married into it. Anyway the bigger a empire becomes, the harder it will be to have a "empress" or "emperor" imo. At least, until u find ways to communicate and control fast.

Anyway point being, is that it shouldnt be hard at all, just like someone said earlier(if you have been involved in, and been able to study the society) to create havoc in a land like seanchan.

 

Same thing about graendal really, that country on the other side of the waste seems very isolated and special aswell. By just kidnapping their rulers, chaos started. But what will happen when the chaos is ended? im pretty sure the country will have evolved somehow, or at least adapted to circumstances like that. Just like any revolution.

 

 

 

 

Randland now on the other hand, lands that got quite alot of people who actually got knowledge and can counter or stop any attempt from forsaken to create chaos, shouldnt be that easy.

I dont count Elaidas AS as those, but the rebels definetly starts to learn(bonding ashaman etc, all the discoveries) and so does any channeler who gets in contact with Rand really.

[Braus]

The simple ability to travel and to invert and reverse weaves, and to hide the ability to channel explain all of these. The same method could have been used in the Tower itself prior to Nynaeve capturing moghedian--and likely would have had the same effect.

 

damn u >.<

[Philbert]

I don't think any other Forsaken, or even Shaidar Haran, knew of this plan. Remember what Lanfear said: with these (the Choedan Kal) in hand, we could challenge the Great Lord of the Dark himself!

 

If Semi had managed to get Rand in a male A'dam, she would be able to force him into a link (or would be in one, through the A'dam), and would have access to at least the remaining Choedan Kal (I don't know if Semi knows that the female one was destroyed) AND Callandor. With that, she would have what Lanfear wanted.

 

If any Forsaken would have known about this plan, they would surely have tried to stop it, to prevent Semi from becoming that powerful.

[Charlz Fel]

I think one of the themes of KoD is that "bad guys" can have courage too.  For instance, Masema takes two hundred men and cuts his way through the mass of Shaido to his army the other side.  Semirhage is also stated to have courage, based on her behavior when captured.  I think that the plan for her to capture Rand, in person, is another example of her courage.  Semirhage did not consider the plan absolutely foolproof; she thought that it had a good chance of success (which it would have, if Cadsuane had not had a ter'angreal that Semirhage did not know existed), and that the potential reward from capturing Rand, and possibly his sa'angreal as well, was worth the risk of being captured or killed herself.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bravery doesn't make her smart - she's still a dimwit.

[Braus]

Bravery doesn't make her smart - she's still a dimwit.

 

or u? since i dont really buy most of what you have written this far.

 

Besides we got no idea how the dark side is. Moridin did help Rand in Shadar Logoth, why? Just so the dark one can beat him? why does he want the dark one to beat him in the last battle, instead of letting one of his chosen kill him in shadar logoth?

Besides the prophecy we get in the great hunt, we got no idea how the dark's prophecy is. The dark one did hardly seem that mad on Lanfear for almost betraying him, for her ambition. It was all apart of the propechy, one way for them to win.

Who knows Semiragh might aswell, as someone ironic said before i think, have a secret mission. This might sound silly, but maybe rand losing his hand was all apart of the pattern or some prophecy.

 

About the capture if its not a silly secret mission, how many other channelers does a forsaken have that he/she can trust for a capture like this? Semiragh never been that active in the WT as far as i know, doubt she has black AS like Mogathdien or Messana. How many damane are she actually able to sneak away(and still be sure they dont suspect something/become a threat to herself)

 

Just like Graendal did to Mogathdien and Cyndane, its all about openings. Im sure Semiragh could had been successful in capturing rand and Co/killing.

Just look at Aviendha + Egwene + Rand vs Lanfear. She was to fast for them, to knowledgeable, i doubt she would have been able to do as she did if Aviendha/egwene and rand had been prepared for it, they were shocked to say the least.

Nynanvea, the AS and the Ashaman really got nothing against a forsaken, just like Egwene/Aviendha. Sure they might know a few weaves, but that wont help them. Unless they manage to pass the first attacks, after that im sure they can do the same game Nynanvea and Mogathdien did in the tanchico palace, or Rand and Lanfear in Carhien. Cutting weaves etc.

 

I think Semi had all the chances to capture Rand. And im sure she had quite alot of weaves prepared to do just that, remember she was one of the best healers in AOL, she knows how to inflict pain.

[draconian]

u r forgeting that semirhage would of likely not attacked from the start like she was forced to do b/c of ter'angreal

she would of gained his trust then strike while there were less ppl arround

semirhages and 6 female channelers not embracing vs 3 war trained male channellers and 2 of the stronger female channeler and both with angreal and all used invert and reverse weaves, and to hide the ability to channel weave

the second her plan and trap were revealed she lost

 

why do u think the sad bracelets were in a box and not on her person?

 

 

[Thor]

morridin helped rand because he wanted to get rid of sammual.  remember how he dissaproved of sammual and graendal's conversation? yeh, see, morridin takes out the naughty boys.