A theory of Asmodean

[Maddux]

A co-worker and I have been discussing wether or not Mazrim Taim could possibly be Asmo or a recarnate of Asmo. A few of our other friends have agreed that this theory is possible if not totally probably so im curious what others think. Thanks for your comments.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Not a chance.  We have the DO's words in the prolouge of LOC that Asmo has "died the final death."  We also have this backed up by Jordan himself who stated that Asmo is "roadkill."  So we have it from both the mouths of the DO and the "Creator" that Asmo is dead. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

I reckon Taim killed Asmodean

[Majsju]

Aside from RJs words, the books gives the answer. Just look at strength. While the strength of the Forsaken is not 100% known, we do know that Asmo was one of, if not the weakest. While Taim is close to rand in strength.

[RAND AL THOR]

I always wished that the Dragon had some additional strength that nobody else could match. It so unfair that so many people are so close to him in strength. :'(

[Bob T Dwarf]

There wouldn't be any suspense if he were Superman.  He's supposed to appear vulnerable.

 

Although, as I said in another thread, so far, there hasn't been a single thing that he's attempted with the Power ( other than resurrection ) that he hasn't been able to accomplish.

[DarkJustice]

Aside from RJs words, the books gives the answer. Just look at strength. While the strength of the Forsaken is not 100% known, we do know that Asmo was one of, if not the weakest. While Taim is close to rand in strength.

 

It has been a while since I read the book so I could be wrong but I thought that the description of the fight between Asmodean and Rand in Rhuidean put them fairly equal in strength.

[balefire]

Rand hadn't reached his maximum potential at the time of the fight in the aiel waste. In fifth book, he remarks that he has gotton noticeably stronger in the power after asmodean's teachings, enough difference to make him actually consider what his true strength is. This isn't the exact quote, but from what i remember, this was what he thought.

[RAND AL THOR]

And furthermore during that fight they both held equal halves of the Choden Kal so we may not see their true strength difference there. As I recall, Rand only managed to win it by using his little angreal and cutting off Asmo from the DO.

[Maddux]

Wasnt it said at one point if you are reborn/reincarnated your power to control the true source is reduced? Taim has always been right under Rand where as Rand has issues dealing with Asmo if it wasnt for outside interference.

[RAND AL THOR]

Wasnt it said at one point if you are reborn/reincarnated your power to control the true source is reduced?

 

That doesn't occur naturally as far as I know. However, when the DO transmigrates, then there may be a drop in the power strength due to weaknesses in the new body.

[Maddux]

As far as Mr Jordans words go.. When i was a child i used to tell my mother that i had finished my dinner and she never knew the truth until the dishes were done.. Case in point people gloss over things they want to be kept secret.

[Mr Ares]

Wasnt it said at one point if you are reborn/reincarnated your power to control the true source is reduced?

No. No such thing has ever been mentioned or hinted at. The only thing in the books mentioned as being able to reduce someones maximum (as opposed to simply reducing the amount of their maximum they can reach at any time, such as a shield) is severing, followed by Healing from a member of the same sex - we see this in Siuan and Leane being weaker following Nynaeve's attempt to Heal them. We do not know why Cyndane is not as strong as she was (but we only have evidence to support one position, that mentioned above), and Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar are never mentioned to have any adjustment in strength.

[Guest Dreadlord]

As Ive said in other threads, I reckon Lanfear was burnt out, which is why Cyndane isnt as strong. Although there isnt any hard evidence to back that up.

[billoumm7]

no, Cyndane and Lanfear arent the same...at all... and also lanfear is still stuck with the alfin and elfin... which means Cyndane is just a strong member of the black ajah

[Mysterious]

no, Cyndane and Lanfear arent the same...at all... and also lanfear is still stuck with the alfin and elfin... which means Cyndane is just a strong member of the black ajah

 

You have no evidence to back this up. We have ample evidence that Cyndane is Lanfear reborn because of her attitude and hatred towards Lew Therin and her knowledge of of AoL.

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Luckers]

no, Cyndane and Lanfear arent the same...at all... and also lanfear is still stuck with the alfin and elfin... which means Cyndane is just a strong member of the black ajah

 

Sorry mate, but that are in fact one and the same. This we know as fact thanks to Cyndane's POV in Winter's Heart at the cleansing. She was held for a time by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn until she died and was recycled into Cyndane, whereupon she was bound by cour'souvra.

 

That doesn't occur naturally as far as I know. However, when the DO transmigrates, then there may be a drop in the power strength due to weaknesses in the new body.

 

Immensely unlikely, that, given that three of the four transmigrated souls are so exactly the same in strength that the Forsaken judge Cyndane's difference in strength to be proof that she is not Lanfear.

 

As Ive said in other threads, I reckon Lanfear was burnt out, which is why Cyndane isnt as strong. Although there isnt any hard evidence to back that up.

 

Actually there is conciderable hard evidence--the snapping of the bond, the decline in strength, the inability to fight of the Finns--since all of these have no other explanation that severing, they serve as evidence. What's lacking is final proof.

[billoumm7]

i still don't agree... knowledge and hatred of Lewis Threin means nothing. all the forsaken knew Lewis Therin personally, and all of the forsaken hated him... even if Cyndane was Lanfear reborn, i doubt she would serve Mordin... of all the forsaken Lanfear was always holding her own council, and she didn't trust any of the others. Least of all did she ever submit to the other forsaken. Besides Lanfear was 'Daughter of the Night' and there is nothing that suggest anyone but the wise ones, Egwene, Perin, or the other members of the tower with the ter' angeral even being in the world of dreams...

[billoumm7]

crap i have a ton of typos in that...

[DhaiMon]

i still don't agree... knowledge and hatred of Lewis Threin means nothing. all the forsaken knew Lewis Therin personally, and all of the forsaken hated him... even if Cyndane was Lanfear reborn, i doubt she would serve Mordin... of all the forsaken Lanfear was always holding her own council, and she didn't trust any of the others. Least of all did she ever submit to the other forsaken. Besides Lanfear was 'Daughter of the Night' and there is nothing that suggest anyone but the wise ones, Egwene, Perin, or the other members of the tower with the ter' angeral even being in the world of dreams...

As sad as the road Lanfear has come down on looks with her being a recycled Forsaken bound to Moridin's will by means of a mindtrap now, it is simply the truth. The aforementioned POV proves as much, and in the end the Dark One punishes his servants for failure- the Daughter of the Night, our favorite Queen Bitch included. It's more plausible than to assume that, say, her soul somehow got duplicated or something like that.

I, for one, at least hope that Lanfear a.k.a. Cyndane will have one last important appearance in AMoL, such as killing one of the other Forsaken out of her mad love with Lews/Rand, for example. Wouldn't that be sweet... :D

[Arath Faringal]

i still don't agree... knowledge and hatred of Lewis Threin means nothing. all the forsaken knew Lewis Therin personally, and all of the forsaken hated him... even if Cyndane was Lanfear reborn, i doubt she would serve Mordin... of all the forsaken Lanfear was always holding her own council, and she didn't trust any of the others. Least of all did she ever submit to the other forsaken. Besides Lanfear was 'Daughter of the Night' and there is nothing that suggest anyone but the wise ones, Egwene, Perin, or the other members of the tower with the ter' angeral even being in the world of dreams...

 

It's pretty obvious from her PoV. 

 

From Winters Heart, With the Choedan Kal: 

She could feel it.  That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate.  So he had found a woman to use the other access key.  She would have faced the Great Lord - faced the Creator! - with him.  She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side.  And he had spurned her love, spurned her!

 

The ONLY possible candidate is Lanfear.

[Thor]

i still don't agree... knowledge and hatred of Lewis Threin means nothing. all the forsaken knew Lewis Therin personally, and all of the forsaken hated him... even if Cyndane was Lanfear reborn, i doubt she would serve Mordin... of all the forsaken Lanfear was always holding her own council, and she didn't trust any of the others. Least of all did she ever submit to the other forsaken. Besides Lanfear was 'Daughter of the Night' and there is nothing that suggest anyone but the wise ones, Egwene, Perin, or the other members of the tower with the ter' angeral even being in the world of dreams...

As sad as the road Lanfear has come down on looks with her being a recycled Forsaken bound to Moridin's will by means of a mindtrap now, it is simply the truth. The aforementioned POV proves as much, and in the end the Dark One punishes his servants for failure- the Daughter of the Night, our favorite Queen Bitch included. It's more plausible than to assume that, say, her soul somehow got duplicated or something like that.

I, for one, at least hope that Lanfear a.k.a. Cyndane will have one last important appearance in AMoL, such as killing one of the other Forsaken out of her mad love with Lews/Rand, for example. Wouldn't that be sweet... :D

 

she doesn't love him, she loves the power and title.

[mb]

About Taim being Asmodean, that cannot be.  Taim cannot be any of the forsaken.  First, he is first mentioned in Great Hunt and has been alive since then.  Second, the only male Forsaken that has always been alive is Demandred; and besides Robert Jordan's words, the "Kill Rand" order proves that Taim is not Demandred.  Third, the only Forsaken killed before Taim was mentioned were Aginor &  Balthamel and those 2 were resurrected in different bodies than Taim.

 

About Taim killing Asmodean, that to me is doubtful.  Taim seemed to be nowhere near Caemlyn when the event took place.  And there have been no words of either knowing each other (Asmodean's killer was someone Asmodean knew).

 

About Lanfear and Cyndane, they are the same person; yet the term is not reborn.  Either she was severed then Healed or killed then resurrected.

 

[lordofsoup]

No u are all wrong Lanfear is still trapped and Asmo is Cyndane, that would give him/her reason to hate Rand. 

 

feel free to flame I dont believe it either

[Reiver]

It'd be nice if Rand was to kill her. The guy has grown and hopefully making himself iron/stone will stop him being such a pussy about killing women who're trying to kill you, your friends and half the world.