Mat Prophs....

[Lord Nik]

Going over some of the prophecies for Mat and the "trade half the light of the world to save it" deal got me thinking...

What if... half the light of the world was saidin or saidar? What if Mat to save the world has to somehow trade the male or female half of the source.

someone else might have thought of this before me but i thought it was a good idea.

[nashdude]

I should think that he'd have to be able to access the One Power before he could trade half of it. But that's just me ::)

[Mr Ares]

Since when is the One Power Mat's to give away? Also, why shouldn't we just stick with him losing an eye, as that also fufills other prophecies? (The one about him placing his eye on a balance scale, for one, and him playing dice while blood streams down his face, his hat pulled low so Egwene can't see the wound and Thom pulling Moiraine's blue stone from a fire for another.)

[Asmo]

Mat's gonna lose an eye, Rand has already lost his hand and Perrin is probably going to lose a foot or something. Put them together, and you've got your pirate.

 

Why does the main cast have to end up disheveled?

 

Oh, and the mere notion of "trading" the driving force of the Wheel, an infinite source of energy and the catalyst of the entire world for something, anything, even the complete and utter death of the Dark One, is ridiculous. You might as well Balefire the Pattern while you are at it.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I do not want Mat to lose an eye.  I like him just how he is right now.  I also am angry that Rand lost his hand.  Grab Min and jump out of the way!  Not that hard!  UGH!!  but i really don't see anything more happening to Perrin.  And Faile had better not get kidnapped again.  God, THAT would be a tragic event for the series....

[Lord Nik]

it was just an idea but then what would "half the light of the world" be.... i mean saidin and saidar are often described as "a light just out of sight" its just an idea.

--

But What else could "half the light of the world" be!!! is he gonna chop the sun in half and pour the excess on the dark one! probabley not... so if my idea is so outragous what other grand ideas are out there to explain this.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Was that part of an actual prophecy or was that just a figure of speech?

[Asmo]

so if my idea is so outragous what other grand ideas are out there to explain this.

 

Him losing an eye?

 

EDIT: Also, the True Source is described as a light just beyond sight. The True Source is everywhere and it's also an infinite well of the One Power, so it cannot be cut in half. It's not something measurable.

[CUBAREY]

But What else could "half the light of the world" be!!! is he gonna chop the sun in half and pour the excess on the dark one! probabley not... so if my idea is so outragous what other grand ideas are out there to explain this

 

How about this the Foxes and Snakes give him an alternative- Free Moirrane (who will be instrumental in winning TG) or get something that is instrumental in quickly ending the chaos in Seanchen so that the entire might of the Seanchen can be used at TG. He chooses Moirrane thus losing Seanchen (half the world) from the side of the light at TG.

[Lord Nik]

But What else could "half the light of the world" be!!! is he gonna chop the sun in half and pour the excess on the dark one! probabley not... so if my idea is so outragous what other grand ideas are out there to explain this

 

How about this the Foxes and Snakes give him an alternative- Free Moirrane (who will be instrumental in winning TG) or get something that is instrumental in quickly ending the chaos in Seanchen so that the entire might of the Seanchen can be used at TG. He chooses Moirrane thus losing Seanchen (half the world) from the side of the light at TG.

 

hmm i cant really see that being half the light of the world but maybe.

 

Him losing an eye?

i really cant see his eye being so grandly stated as half the light of the world. trade an eye to save the world seems very anticlimatic for a prophecy. and the source is the infinite power that drives the wheel and the world. so is it so crazy to say that to save it the wheel it self you need to cut the power abit.. an energy saver thing maybe :P

 

 

Him losing an eye?

[billoumm7]

alright... loose have the light of the world to save it... not meant to be the world but his world... something will happen to someone he loves, and half of his world's light will be gone... then out of sheer fury he'll forget his trying to hid the hidden memories of the other men and use his five thousand years of tatical skill and use it all at the last battle, and die for rand.

[Safia al-Maaz]

Mat isn't going to die, RJ was going to write a book about Mat and Tuon in the future after TG.  That's in his blog on this site way back when, don't ask me to go look for it, it's there and I don't feel like hunting for it...

[Lord Nik]

alright... loose have the light of the world to save it... not meant to be the world but his world... something will happen to someone he loves, and half of his world's light will be gone... then out of sheer fury he'll forget his trying to hid the hidden memories of the other men and use his five thousand years of tatical skill and use it all at the last battle, and die for rand.

 

 

NOOOOO MAT CANT DIE I WONT ALLOW IT!!! HAVE RAND PERRIN AND ALL OF ANODR DIE BUT NOT MAT!!!!

[Razor]

Matt and Tuon will not die as RJ was planning an outrigger novel about them in Senchan 10 yrs in the future.

[Mr Ares]

alright... loose have the light of the world to save it... not meant to be the world but his world...

This is what it is generally taken to mean. And light enters his world through his eyes. Thus, if he gave up one of his eyes he would be giving up half the light of his world. Given the other prophecies relating to him losing an eye (see my earlier reply in the thread) it is not unreasonable for him to lose an eye, is it? As for "to save the world", we know that Moiraine will be neeeded at TG (Min knows Rand will fail without a woman who is dead and gone, and a viewing she had of Moiraine is the only one that has ever failed) and we know Mat is going to rescue Moiraine. So Mat will lose an eye in some manner while rescuing Moiraine. Personally, I like the thought of one eyed Mat. I think it would be an improvement.

[Lille]

I like the thought of one eyed Mat. I think it would be an improvement.

 

I agree, it would make him even more awesome, just wonder what Tuon will say :P

[Mr Ares]

I like the thought of one eyed Mat. I think it would be an improvement.

I agree, it would make him even more awesome, just wonder what Tuon will say :P

Given the importance of eyes in Seanchan culture (lowered eyes, by my eye, etc.) it's anyones guess, but it will be a lot of fun finding out.

[Lord Nik]

yea i see your guys point about his eyes and light deal... but i always wanted something more grand then him just losing an eye. I mean half the light of the world to save it... an eye is just to small for me to accept it being that lol

[Razor]

This is significant as it continues to show Matt's development as acharacter from a me first trickster, to a me first but responsible and my work is my bond, to self sacrificing to save others including risking his life for Moraine, and now having to give up an eye for Moraine.  He goes from assuming his luck will get him through a risk with no harm to himself to certain harm.  I think this is the significance.

[Serenla]

My two cents…

I have to agree that Mat losing his eye to fulfill this prophecy seems like too small of a sacrifice to envelop the phrase "half the light of the world".

Reasons:

1) Someone posted on another thread that losing an eye would not halve your range of vision and I agree with this, as closing one eye does not halve my range of vision or the light I perceive.

2) Also the phrasing "half the light of the world" seems to indicate something big.  Whereas losing an eye would be awful it really doesn't seem very dramatic, I would rather lose an eye than an arm or leg.

3) Why would losing an eye save the world?

  A deal with the Snakes and Foxes for Moiraine has been the explanation in most cases.  My problem with that is why would they want his eye?  What would they do with it? 

  Alternately, it has been suggested that he would take it out so the Snakes and Foxes wouldn't see him coming through their link with him.  This doesn't fit for me because they are getting his complete memories not just what he sees.  Beyond that, Thom and whoever goes with them, could just blindfold him and cover his ears, then he doesn't know where he is and neither will the Snakes and Foxes. 

4) As far as dreams of eyes on a balance scale, if half the light of the world can refer to Mat’s eye, then Mat’s eye could symbolize half the light of the world, whatever that may be.

 

My take on the prophecy is that letting Tuon go back to Ebou Dar was giving up half the light. 

Reasons:

“Half the Light” 

1) The Seanchan may not be half the forces of the light and I don't think they control half the Randland continent, but the Wise Ones dream of Rand cutting the wetlands in two and the Karaethon Cycle says "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south”.  Not exactly half but it if you don't count the uninhabited places it comes close. 

2) Tuon is referred to as “the moons” in the Karaethon Cycle.  The moon is not necessary half the light but is in the sky close to half of the time. Tuon also receives a prophecy about her marriage to Mat where she is told that he will kidnap her marry her and let her go.  Most prophecies have more than one source corroborate it.  The part about setting her free is not corroborated anywhere else unless giving up half the light does. 

3) Also I think that Mat might rather lose his eye than his wife considering the massacre he used to make sure she was safe.  With her away from him he has no way to protect her which I believe will bother him considering his reaction to Tylin’s death.  As a side note RJ refers to Harriet as his light in a few of his dedications.  Having the light represent a character’s wife doesn’t seem like that far of a stretch to me. 

 

“Save the World”

1) If Tuon had not gone back to Ebou Dar, Suroth would lead all of the Seanchan forces during the Last Battle.  The Seanchan will not question orders ever, which would mean that Seanchan would be fighting alongside Trollocs and the like.  This is seen when Liandrin gives Egwene to Suroth.  The sul'dam never considered which master one of the High Blood and an Aes Sedai would share when questioned.  And the answer to that has to be pretty obvious if one has any knowledge of the Seanchan view on channeling.  With Suroth leading the Seanchan against the Forces of Light there is almost no chance of the Light winning. 

 

Sorry for the long post but I have given this topic a lot of thought as I obviously would rather have the prophecy mean something other than Mat losing his eye. 

 

[Majsju]

To those who think Mat losing an eye is not something really significant, you might want to consider some of RJs sources for WOT.

 

Mat draws heavily from the god Odin from Norse religion, most noticable the ravens and having been hung from a special tree in order to gain wisdom and power.

Incidently, Odin sacrified an eye at Mimers Well in order to gain wisdom and insight.

 

Which makes his coming loss of an eye quite significant to the greater story.

[Beli Tsar]

Seems to me the only reason his losing an eye appears to be so insignificant to anyone is the fact that we've all more or less been expecting it since he first went through that doorway, or perhaps for some when Egwene had her dream. That's a mighty long time to grow accustomed to the idea and, yeah, it does kind of lose its luster if you successfully guess a plot line. I remember first reading it and thinking it to be a rather exciting prospect. Now maybe not so much.

 

But I do have this to say: Even though the general consensus is that Mat will lose an eye, there is a chance however slight that Egwene's dream was metaphorical in some sense (what it'd be, I don't know, nor do I agree with this...just saying). However, if he does lose an eye as expected, it still has the potential to be a great event in the book because I doubt RJ or Brandon planned to make it as simple as "here's my eye, I'll take her, thank you, goodbye now" and it'll therefore probably culminate in one of the more exciting moments of the series

[Lord Nik]

I really like all the ideas going back and forth but... I guess the loss of saidin or saidar is TOO big :p. I still want to see what you guys end up agreeing on though so continue through the ideas out there! Someone may even convince me that there idea is better then mine ;)

[Mr Ares]

My two cents…

I have to agree that Mat losing his eye to fulfill this prophecy seems like too small of a sacrifice to envelop the phrase "half the light of the world".

Reasons:

1) Someone posted on another thread that losing an eye would not halve your range of vision and I agree with this, as closing one eye does not halve my range of vision or the light I perceive.

If half the light entering your head enters through each eye, then halve the number of eyes and you halve the amount of light entering your head.

2) Also the phrasing "half the light of the world" seems to indicate something big.  Whereas losing an eye would be awful it really doesn't seem very dramatic, I would rather lose an eye than an arm or leg.

You've not lost many eyes (or arms or legs), have you? It's pretty big for Mat.

 

4) As far as dreams of eyes on a balance scale, if half the light of the world can refer to Mat’s eye, then Mat’s eye could symbolize half the light of the world, whatever that may be.

The eye on a balance scale is usually backed up with another prophecy: Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilyn put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine’s forehead.

 

-The Fires Of Heaven, What Can Be Learned in Dreams.

To what does this refer?

 

My take on the prophecy is that letting Tuon go back to Ebou Dar was giving up half the light. 

Reasons:

“Half the Light” 

1) The Seanchan may not be half the forces of the light and I don't think they control half the Randland continent, but the Wise Ones dream of Rand cutting the wetlands in two and the Karaethon Cycle says "The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south”.  Not exactly half but it if you don't count the uninhabited places it comes close. 

2) Tuon is referred to as “the moons” in the Karaethon Cycle.  The moon is not necessary half the light but is in the sky close to half of the time. Tuon also receives a prophecy about her marriage to Mat where she is told that he will kidnap her marry her and let her go.  Most prophecies have more than one source corroborate it.  The part about setting her free is not corroborated anywhere else unless giving up half the light does.

Your point about corroborating sources is weak. While some have it, there are an awful lot of prophecies that don't. I only recall one source for the Wolf King, for "five ride forth and four return", plenty of others if you wish to look them up. Furthermore, prophecy doesn't need corroboration, except in understanding its meaning. A single foretelling or viewing or dream may be obscure, but matched with something else it becomes clear. But there is no lack of clarity here. Plus, what about the one I mentioned earlier, about Mat's wound and Moiraine's rescue. That can be corroborated by an eye on a balance scale, and half the light of the world - it all fits together. While any one of these could mean anything independantly, together we are able to build a much more certain picture of their meaning. There is no such ambiguity in that foretelling about Tuon. We know exactly what it means. It needs no corroboration. Also, the loss of an eye fits well with the aforementioned (by Majsju) Mat=Odin links.

Sorry for the long post but I have given this topic a lot of thought as I obviously would rather have the prophecy mean something other than Mat losing his eye.

Which long post would that be?

[Lord Nik]

Mr. Ares I am a stubborn man, yet you have convinced me :P

I give in the eye thing makes sense.

You win this time :P