Mat Prophs....

[Serenla]

I am a little more stubborn, so I'll give it a shot. 

The reason it cannot be the One Power that Mat gives up is from RJ’s answer to this question.

Question:

 

Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

 

Robert Jordan Answers:

 

Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

 

If half the light entering your head enters through each eye, then halve the number of eyes and you halve the amount of light entering your head.

Perceive and range of vision were the operative words.  Each eye has it’s own range of vision, which overlaps that of the other eye. The extent of which depends on how good your peripheral vision is.  My peripheral vision range has been reduced(read below), and I still only lose about 20% of my range of vision by closing one eye.  Yes, I suppose that closing one eye would halve the amount of light entering my head but I can hardly call it giving up half the light because I only notice the loss of that aforementioned 20%.

You've not lost many eyes (or arms or legs), have you? It's pretty big for Mat.

Actually, I did lose the use of one eye for about 3 months.  Had to wear an eye patch to do anything.  (Had excess fluid in my brain, which caused permanent optical nerve damage and for three months, double vision so bad that if I took a step without wearing the eye patch, I literally fell over.) Whereas I absolutely detested being called a pirate, I could still go to work and do my job, drive a car, read a book… Losing an arm would have meant relearning how to do many things with a much longer time to adapt to the loss.  Losing a leg, the same only more things and a much longer time to adapt.  Whereas Mat wouldn’t like the loss anymore than I did, Uno and quite a few other soldiers have lost an eye and they seem to do okay in their chosen professions.

 

The eye on a balance scale is usually backed up with another prophecy: Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilyn put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

 

-The Fires Of Heaven, What Can Be Learned in Dreams.

To what does this refer?

The eye on the balance scale is not necessarily linked to the second.  Obviously the second is the rescue of Moiraine from the tower of Ghenjei. Mat is seen dicing on many occasions and they indicate that he is taking a gamble.  Going into the Tower of Ghenjei is certainly a gamble.  As for the blood, Egwene doesn’t know where it is coming from.  It’s origin could be a head wound or someone else’s blood.  Alternately it could be a symbol of the fact that he practically bathed in blood to get away from the Seanchan and secure Tuon’s freedom or even he gave up the “light of the world” already and the wound still bleeds.  None of these interpretations has to involve literally losing an eye. 

 

Your point about corroborating sources is weak. While some have it, there are an awful lot of prophecies that don't. I only recall one source for the Wolf King, for "five ride forth and four return", plenty of others if you wish to look them up. Furthermore, prophecy doesn't need corroboration, except in understanding its meaning. A single foretelling or viewing or dream may be obscure, but matched with something else it becomes clear. But there is no lack of clarity here. Plus, what about the one I mentioned earlier, about Mat's wound and Moiraine's rescue. That can be corroborated by an eye on a balance scale, and half the light of the world - it all fits together. While any one of these could mean anything independantly, together we are able to build a much more certain picture of their meaning. There is no such ambiguity in that foretelling about Tuon. We know exactly what it means. It needs no corroboration. Also, the loss of an eye fits well with the aforementioned (by Majsju) Mat=Odin links.

I agree that prophecies do not need corroboration.  The lack of need for it does not mean it doesn’t happen.  But the wheel will weave important information out, and things concerning Mat, Perrin and Rand and people involved with them are certainly important and will probably be woven out more often.  There is also no ambiguity surrounding “rain coming from a bowl” and three Wise Ones dream about it because it was important.  The two prophecies you mentioned do have some corroboration. 

KoD,Ch4

"When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown."

Egwene’s dreams

TDR Chapter 25

Perrin - with a beard! - leading a huge pack of wolves that stretched as far as the eye could see.

LOC Chapter 15

Perrin came and stood before her, a wolf lying at his feet, a hawk and a falcon perched on his shoulders glaring at each other over his head. Seemingly unaware of them, he kept trying to throw away that axe of his, until finally he ran, the axe floating through the air, chasing him.

 

These Dreams do not mention king of wolves, but they do indicate Perrin having some leadership among a large number of wolves, possibly all.  Leading the wolves and a wolf lying at his feet.  In addition, where no mention is made of the hammer, a Dream of Perrin throwing away the axe and running from it gives his choice of leaving the axe importance. 

 

TGH,Ch22

"Five ride forth, four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire."

TGH, Chapter 7

A possible dark prophecy:

The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.

The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.

 

Neither corroborates the other in most points but they both indicate that the Watchers have some importance, enough that Verin noticed the connection. 

 

As for the Odin connection.  Yes, there is one and it cannot be denied.  This connection does not make it mandatory that Mat gives his eye. 

Reasons:

 

1)RJ has woven legends, myths and events that have happened in very recent history throughout the WOT series.  For the recent events, we as readers say that’s not what happened…  Well, yes I guess it kind of happened… But not like that.  (Lenn flying to the moon in an eagle.  Makes me laugh.  It was Glenn and it was a rocket not an eagle.)  With the legends and myths, we laugh and say “the sword in the stone, funny the sword was “in” the Stone”.  But shouldn’t that have been Artur not Rand?  This makes me question whether it is possible to look at the myths and determine what “really” happened.  After we read the events, those of us with more knowledge of myths and legends can lead those of us without this knowledge by the hand to see the connections. (Thank you, Majsju) Beforehand it is difficult to accurately determine how RJ wove events into his Pattern.  RJ’s words, “The further you are from an event, the less likely you are to know what really happened.”  http://www.sffworld.com/interview/50p0.html  Having read this, I would truly be surprised to see Mat lose his eye, mainly because that would be one of the few times that what supposedly happened and what “really happened” are the same. 

2)An alternate to losing an eye.:

Odin is described as having one eye “which blazes like the sun” (http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/europe/norse/articles.html).

In quite a few sources Odin somehow gains “the severed head of Mímir, which foretold the future” (http://odin.wikix.ipupdater.com/).

One source I found tells that the reason Mimir wanted the eye was “Mimir wanted to see what the god saw” (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_Angels_story). 

This could mean that instead of Mat giving up his eye, he gained a severed head, possibly metallic and allows Mimir to see what he sees.  The foxhead medallion could fullfil these requirements.  It will possibly come to symbolize Odin/Mat as he will probably wear it until he dies.  The medallion is silver (TfoH Ch3).  It has only has one eye. The foxhead will certainly gain some kind of place in any history that any Aes Sedai who have encountered it write.  There is obviously no way to prove that the foxhead allows the Foxes to see what Mat sees, but it is a possibility. This would mean that the eye in question was already given.  Just not quite the way the legends/myths say.  And the gain of this particular eye would indeed be a sacrifice as it has occured to Mat that he cannot do anything without the Snakes and Foxes knowing and they get to experience his experiences which is down right creepy.   

As a side note the eye that Odin gave up has been linked with the moon.  “His remaining eye symbolizes the all-seeing Sun; the eye in Mimir's well symbolizes the full Moon.” (http://sleipnir.net/Magic/Cultures/Europe/Norse/Odin.html)

 

 

Sorry for the long post but I have given this topic a lot of thought as I obviously would rather have the prophecy mean something other than Mat losing his eye.

Which long post would that be?

??? I guess wasn't one?  ???

;D

Hopefully this one won't seem overly long either. 

 

[Lord Nik]

YES CONFIDENCE RESTORED! MUHAHAHAHA!

thanks serlena for being stubborn now I am going to try to pick apart their theories with twice as much enthusiasm in which they have tried to do the same to mine :D

--

and everyone seems to be mentioning a connection to WoT and our world. Im new to this site and the whole "looking deeper into Wot Ect.."

so could someone point out these connections to me? Like the odin / mat connection... And everything else! I have heard wars being connected but im in the dark on these!

[RAND AL THOR]

To all the people who think that losing an eye is a trivial deal: IT IS NOT

 

How could anyone think that walking around with one eye is not a big deal?

 

Also, someone mentioned that they dislike the main characters getting maimed. Well I dislike it too, but isn't it a bit realistic? In real life, your champions do get hurt when they enter the battle field.

[Mr Ares]

If half the light entering your head enters through each eye, then halve the number of eyes and you halve the amount of light entering your head.

Perceive and range of vision were the operative words.  Each eye has it’s own range of vision, which overlaps that of the other eye. The extent of which depends on how good your peripheral vision is.  My peripheral vision range has been reduced(read below), and I still only lose about 20% of my range of vision by closing one eye.  Yes, I suppose that closing one eye would halve the amount of light entering my head but I can hardly call it giving up half the light because I only notice the loss of that aforementioned 20%.

You still lose half, even if you don't notice it. This theory certainly can't be ruled out on mathematical grounds.

You've not lost many eyes (or arms or legs), have you? It's pretty big for Mat.

Actually, I did lose the use of one eye for about 3 months.  Had to wear an eye patch to do anything.  (Had excess fluid in my brain, which caused permanent optical nerve damage and for three months, double vision so bad that if I took a step without wearing the eye patch, I literally fell over.) Whereas I absolutely detested being called a pirate, I could still go to work and do my job, drive a car, read a book… Losing an arm would have meant relearning how to do many things with a much longer time to adapt to the loss.  Losing a leg, the same only more things and a much longer time to adapt.  Whereas Mat wouldn’t like the loss anymore than I did, Uno and quite a few other soldiers have lost an eye and they seem to do okay in their chosen professions.

You compare the temporary loss of the use of an eye (albeit with a reduction to your peripheral vision) with the permanent loss of the eye itself? Bit different.

 

The eye on a balance scale is usually backed up with another prophecy: Mat throwing dice with blood streaming down his face, the wide brim of his hat pulled down low so she could not see his wound, while Thom Merrilyn put his hand into a fire to draw out the small blue stone that now dangled on Moiraine's forehead.

 

-The Fires Of Heaven, What Can Be Learned in Dreams.

To what does this refer?

The eye on the balance scale is not necessarily linked to the second.  Obviously the second is the rescue of Moiraine from the tower of Ghenjei. Mat is seen dicing on many occasions and they indicate that he is taking a gamble.  Going into the Tower of Ghenjei is certainly a gamble.  As for the blood, Egwene doesn’t know where it is coming from.  It’s origin could be a head wound or someone else’s blood.  Alternately it could be a symbol of the fact that he practically bathed in blood to get away from the Seanchan and secure Tuon’s freedom or even he gave up the “light of the world” already and the wound still bleeds. None of these interpretations has to involve literally losing an eye.

"Practically bathed in blood"? A small fight like that? And...what wound "still bleeds", exactly? The loss of his less than completely loving wife, whose empire is his enemy? I'm not convinced.

 

As for the Odin connection.  Yes, there is one and it cannot be denied.  This connection does not make it mandatory that Mat gives his eye.

No-one is saying that it's mandatory, only that given the Odin symbolism associated with Mat it becomes more likely, especially when taken with the support of other Prophecies - such as the one about Moiraine's rescue, half the light of the world, eye on a balance scale. Any one of these individually is less than compelling. Taken together, they form a much stronger case. As for your many sources of much relatively obscure Odin information, I'm not convinced that we would need to look so deep for parallels - after all, everything else is stuff that is fairly commonly known about Odin - ravens though and memory, hung from a tree for wisdom of the dead, to give two examples. A similar commonly known tale about Odin is that he lost an eye. You see why people make the connection?

 

Sorry for the long post but I have given this topic a lot of thought as I obviously would rather have the prophecy mean something other than Mat losing his eye.

Which long post would that be?

??? I guess wasn't one?  ???

;D

Hopefully this one won't seem overly long either.

Trust me, we've all seen much longer posts than that, and no-one's had to apologize for them.

[Serenla]

You still lose half, even if you don't notice it. This theory certainly can't be ruled out on mathematical grounds.

It seems to me that it’s less about math and more semantics.  “Give up” to me indicates that the loss of “half” should be noticed.  Can something you don’t miss be counted as given up?

You compare the temporary loss of the use of an eye (albeit with a reduction to your peripheral vision) with the permanent loss of the eye itself? Bit different.

No, it’s not the same.  But my eye was useless for a long enough time to get used to it and after you get used to anything it’s not that big of a deal.  Besides that Rand lost his hand and was pretty much like oh well, whatever.  I can hardly see Mat, who can remember dying on numerous occasions (whether it was really him or not), as being less hardcore than Rand.  And the thing about eyes is that even if you lose one, you can still SEE.  You lose a hand and think of all the things you can’t do anymore.  Start at clapping, cupping a love ones face between your hands, the list is endless.  If I could chose which to lose, I would chose one eye. 

"Practically bathed in blood"? A small fight like that? And...what wound "still bleeds", exactly? The loss of his less than completely loving wife, whose empire is his enemy? I'm not convinced.

          He and his men killed close to 4000 in KoD ch27 and he lost 900 of his own men during this same series of battles.  And then in KoD ch 37, they killed 10,000 men.  Maybe I’m just being a girl but that seems like a blood bath to me.  Beyond that, the men he had killed were slaughtered with almost no chance to get out of the situation.  If that’s a small thing then I certainly couldn’t stomach a big thing. 

          Mat is a keeper of promises regardless of the cost to himself.  He went into the Stone for Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve risking his own life and was obsessive about saving them.  His marriage to Tuon is a promise as far as he’s concerned, he has even shown feelings of guilt when simply thinking about other women.  I am sure that he feels some need to protect Tuon whether he can or not.  And I am sure that not being around to protect her bothers him whether he should feel loyal to her or not.  He shows signs of loving her but I think the fact that he feels responsibility towards her is important point.     

 

No-one is saying that it's mandatory, only that given the Odin symbolism associated with Mat it becomes more likely, especially when taken with the support of other Prophecies - such as the one about Moiraine's rescue, half the light of the world, eye on a balance scale. Any one of these individually is less than compelling. Taken together, they form a much stronger case. As for your many sources of much relatively obscure Odin information, I'm not convinced that we would need to look so deep for parallels - after all, everything else is stuff that is fairly commonly known about Odin - ravens though and memory, hung from a tree for wisdom of the dead, to give two examples. A similar commonly known tale about Odin is that he lost an eye. You see why people make the connection?

As a said in my previous post, I can see it and will not try to deny it.  The problem is that in googling the word Odin, I found various references to him that can be used to form another theory.  Maybe more convoluted, but it is a possibility.  And that’s just what I slapped together in a day or so.  RJ was more creative than I will ever pretend to be.  Yes, there is a possibility that he chose for Mat to lose his eye, but that seems too straightforward of an explanation to me.  As far as the ravens, Thought and Memory, they would be Tuon and Selucia?  They seem somehow less helpful to Mat than the myths had them to be…  And that hanging from the tree bit?  Odin chose to hang from the tree for some magic runes or somesuch, Mat’s swing from the tree was less a choice and more a punishment set by the Foxes.  As far as the eye for Moiraine, that hasn’t changed quite enough for me to swallow it whole.  Yes Moiraine isn’t wisdom, but the link can be formed, but the other connections are altered on all accounts and this one isn’t. 

As far as whether the references are obscure, any reference to Odin seems rather obscure to me, as I had never heard of Odin before I read a post linking him and Mat. 

 

Trust me, we've all seen much longer posts than that, and no-one's had to apologize for them.

Then I suppose I shouldn’t be either.  I guess I am still new enough to feel uncomfortable trying to change people’s minds about such a long standing theory.

 

 

[Mr Ares]

You still lose half, even if you don't notice it. This theory certainly can't be ruled out on mathematical grounds.

It seems to me that it’s less about maths and more semantics.  “Give up” to me indicates that the loss of “half” should be noticed.  Can something you don’t miss be counted as given up?

Yes. Plus the gaping eye socket will stand as silent testimony to the loss of the eye. It will be memorable.

You compare the temporary loss of the use of an eye (albeit with a reduction to your peripheral vision) with the permanent loss of the eye itself? Bit different.

No, it’s not the same.  But my eye was useless for a long enough time to get used to it and after you get used to anything it’s not that big of a deal.  Besides that Rand lost his hand and was pretty much like oh well, whatever.  I can hardly see Mat, who can remember dying on numerous occasions (whether it was really him or not), as being less hardcore than Rand.  And the thing about eyes is that even if you lose one, you can still SEE.  You lose a hand and think of all the things you can’t do anymore.  Start at clapping, cupping a love ones face between your hands, the list is endless.  If I could chose which to lose, I would chose one eye.

"Less hardcore"? Rand's non-reaction to the loss of his hand has more to do with his declining mental health than anything else. And there's plenty you can still do with only one hand, it needn't take that long to adapt.

"Practically bathed in blood"? A small fight like that? And...what wound "still bleeds", exactly? The loss of his less than completely loving wife, whose empire is his enemy? I'm not convinced.

He and his men killed close to 4000 in KoD ch27 and he lost 900 of his own men during this same series of battles.  And then in KoD ch 37, they killed 10,000 men.  Maybe I’m just being a girl but that seems like a blood bath to me.  Beyond that, the men he had killed were slaughtered with almost no chance to get out of the situation.  If that’s a small thing then I certainly couldn’t stomach a big thing. 

 

Mat is a keeper of promises regardless of the cost to himself.  He went into the Stone for Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve risking his own life and was obsessive about saving them.  His marriage to Tuon is a promise as far as he’s concerned, he has even shown feelings of guilt when simply thinking about other women.  I am sure that he feels some need to protect Tuon whether he can or not.  And I am sure that not being around to protect her bothers him whether he should feel loyal to her or not.  He shows signs of loving her but I think the fact that he feels responsibility towards her is important point.

10,000 men is quite a few...but the Somme saw 620,000 British, Imperial and French casualties, and the Germans suffered around 450,000. Or how about the 30,000 French losses at Crecy. Or Stalingrad's 1,450,000 losses (Russian and German). Mat went through a fairly small battle, compared to some. As for the rest, he may want to protect her but he's already done the best he can in that regard - he put her in the care of Karede. It's hardly a major worry for him at the moment.

 

No-one is saying that it's mandatory, only that given the Odin symbolism associated with Mat it becomes more likely, especially when taken with the support of other Prophecies - such as the one about Moiraine's rescue, half the light of the world, eye on a balance scale. Any one of these individually is less than compelling. Taken together, they form a much stronger case. As for your many sources of much relatively obscure Odin information, I'm not convinced that we would need to look so deep for parallels - after all, everything else is stuff that is fairly commonly known about Odin - ravens though and memory, hung from a tree for wisdom of the dead, to give two examples. A similar commonly known tale about Odin is that he lost an eye. You see why people make the connection?

As a said in my previous post, I can see it and will not try to deny it.  The problem is that in googling the word Odin, I found various references to him that can be used to form another theory.  Maybe more convoluted, but it is a possibility.  And that’s just what I slapped together in a day or so.  RJ was more creative than I will ever pretend to be.  Yes, there is a possibility that he chose for Mat to lose his eye, but that seems too straightforward of an explanation to me.  As far as the ravens, Thought and Memory, they would be Tuon and Selucia?  They seem somehow less helpful to Mat than the myths had them to be…  And that hanging from the tree bit?  Odin chose to hang from the tree for some magic runes or somesuch, Mat’s swing from the tree was less a choice and more a punishment set by the Foxes.  As far as the eye for Moiraine, that hasn’t changed quite enough for me to swallow it whole.  Yes Moiraine isn’t wisdom, but the link can be formed, but the other connections are altered on all accounts and this one isn’t. 

As far as whether the references are obscure, any reference to Odin seems rather obscure to me, as I had never heard of Odin before I read a post linking him and Mat.

Never heard of Odin? What do they teach kids these days? Odin chose to hang from the tree for the wisdom of the dead. Mat hung from the tree and ended up with the memories of dead men - their wisdom is included in that. The ravens are those on his spear, thought and memory are found in the inscription: "Thought is the arrow of time/ Memory never fades". Also, why is the loss of an eye too straightforward? RJ's been very straightforward in the past, with the explanations of some of his prophecies.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All of the battles you mention were fought over extended periods of time.  Along extended fronts.  The casualty figures include wounded and missing, not just the dead.

 

Mat's big battle was fought in only part of a single day. Along a small front encompassing very little space.  The 10,000 were all fatalities.  Bloodbath is entirely accurate.

[Serenla]

Yes. Plus the gaping eye socket will stand as silent testimony to the loss of the eye. It will be memorable.

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree on that point.  To me “give up half the light” would mean that you are aware that half the light you used to see is gone.  Yes it would be memorable, without question.  But Mat would get an eye patch or something not walk around with a gapping hole in his face.  He wouldn’t want to creep all the ladies out when he’s smiling at them it would ruin the effect. 

 

"Less hardcore"? Rand's non-reaction to the loss of his hand has more to do with his declining mental health than anything else. And there's plenty you can still do with only one hand, it needn't take that long to adapt.

I’m not sure that Rand’s reaction can be wholly attributed to the fact that he’s loony.  Min and Bashere understood his reaction, even though they show signs of feeling bad for him.  It’s not that I think that you can’t do an infinite number of things with only one hand.  It’s that the loss of a hand would remove more abilities than the loss of one eye. 

 

10,000 men is quite a few...but the Somme saw 620,000 British, Imperial and French casualties, and the Germans suffered around 450,000. Or how about the 30,000 French losses at Crecy. Or Stalingrad's 1,450,000 losses (Russian and German). Mat went through a fairly small battle, compared to some. As for the rest, he may want to protect her but he's already done the best he can in that regard - he put her in the care of Karede. It's hardly a major worry for him at the moment.

Yes, in comparison it’s not that big of a number.  I still see it as a blood bath.  You have become much more desensitized to the horrors of war than I have.  Yes, I have lived a very sheltered life.  As for Mat and his feelings towards Tuon.  I don’t know how much he still worries for her, but I don’t think he’s very good at saying “There’s nothing I can do.”  He sat in the cold counting ships and bodies to see if freeing the Sea Folk did enough good to outweigh the bad and blames himself for Tylin’s death.  These are in spite of the fact that he did the best he could.

 

Never heard of Odin? What do they teach kids these days? Odin chose to hang from the tree for the wisdom of the dead. Mat hung from the tree and ended up with the memories of dead men - their wisdom is included in that. The ravens are those on his spear, thought and memory are found in the inscription: "Thought is the arrow of time/ Memory never fades". Also, why is the loss of an eye too straightforward? RJ's been very straightforward in the past, with the explanations of some of his prophecies.

It’s probably my own fault, I was too busing learning math, chemistry and physics to pay attention to history and cultural things.  And I slept through the classes in those that I had to take.  Yes, some are very straightforward and some are filled without many readers realizing it.  I guess I’m hoping that it won’t be straightforward in this case.  I would not really like to read the scene where Mat goes, “Well, okay, I’ll do it. Moiraine, you owe me a bunch of kisses for this, oh Blood and Ashes, I’m married, well you still owe me big!” And he reaches up to dig his eye out.  YUCK!  I guess my biggest problem with the eye theory besides that, is what do the Snakes and Foxes want with an eyeball?  I can’t think of a reason for it. 

YES CONFIDENCE RESTORED! MUHAHAHAHA!

thanks serlena for being stubborn now I am going to try to pick apart their theories with twice as much enthusiasm in which they have tried to do the same to mine :D

--

and everyone seems to be mentioning a connection to WoT and our world. Im new to this site and the whole "looking deeper into Wot Ect.."

so could someone point out these connections to me? Like the odin / mat connection... And everything else! I have heard wars being connected but im in the dark on these!

Oh, well thanks.  I'm glad that me being a pain has inspired you!

All of the battles you mention were fought over extended periods of time.  Along extended fronts.  The casualty figures include wounded and missing, not just the dead.

 

Mat's big battle was fought in only part of a single day. Along a small front encompassing very little space.  The 10,000 were all fatalities.  Bloodbath is entirely accurate.

Thanks, I can't argue on that point.  "I always skip over the battles..." me and Verin have something in common.  :D 

[Paviel]

Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfinn. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all.

 

Then how could they send Mat back to Rhuidean at all, let alone by hanging him from Avendesora?

[Bob T Dwarf]

They can, apparently, walk out of a doorway for a short time, and place people or things where they want them.

 

But, that doesn't involve any of their 'Powers'.  That's just ordinary locomotion and physical manipulation.

[Serenla]

Mat didn't say where or in what situation he wanted to be.  Only that he wanted to leave.  When they sent him out of their world they put him hanging from the Tree with a noose around his neck.  They didn't change anything about Randland, they just decided where Mat was put back into it. 

[MatrixM]

I guess my biggest problem with the eye theory besides that, is what do the Snakes and Foxes want with an eyeball?  I can’t think of a reason for it.

Perhaps they'll want his feelings and memories. "The eyes are the gateway to the soul" or something like that.

[Mr Ares]

I guess my biggest problem with the eye theory besides that, is what do the Snakes and Foxes want with an eyeball?  I can’t think of a reason for it.

Perhaps they'll want his feelings and memories. "The eyes are the gateway to the soul" or something like that.

They have those already.

 

All of the battles you mention were fought over extended periods of time.  Along extended fronts.  The casualty figures include wounded and missing, not just the dead.

 

Mat's big battle was fought in only part of a single day. Along a small front encompassing very little space.  The 10,000 were all fatalities.  Bloodbath is entirely accurate.

Crecy was an extended period of time and an extended front? Then how about Omdurman? One day, 10,000 Sudanese killed, plus the 16,000 wounded (many of them died of their wounds later). Or how about Cannae? Probably a lot more battles out there, but getting accurate counts of the killed in ancient battles can be tricky.

 

Yes. Plus the gaping eye socket will stand as silent testimony to the loss of the eye. It will be memorable.

Well have to agree to disagree on that point. To me give up half the light would mean that you are aware that half the light you used to see is gone. Yes it would be memorable, without question. But Mat would get an eye patch or something not walk around with a gapping hole in his face. He wouldnt want to creep all the ladies out when hes smiling at them it would ruin the effect.

The gaping hole in his face will still be there even if covered.

 

"Less hardcore"? Rand's non-reaction to the loss of his hand has more to do with his declining mental health than anything else. And there's plenty you can still do with only one hand, it needn't take that long to adapt.

Im not sure that Rands reaction can be wholly attributed to the fact that hes loony.  Min and Bashere understood his reaction, even though they show signs of feeling bad for him.  Its not that I think that you cant do an infinite number of things with only one hand.  Its that the loss of a hand would remove more abilities than the loss of one eye.

Psychologically, which do you think would be more damaging: disfiguring facial wound to man well aware of his good looks, or loss of hand to man who doesn't give a damn about the state of his body provided it gets him through TG? 

 

I guess my biggest problem with the eye theory besides that, is what do the Snakes and Foxes want with an eyeball? I cant think of a reason for it.

Who says they want the eyeball?  

 

Thanks, I can't argue on that point.  "I always skip over the battles..." me and Verin have something in common.   :D 

Probably a smart move.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Crecy was an extended period of time and an extended front? Then how about Omdurman? One day, 10,000 Sudanese killed, plus the 16,000 wounded (many of them died of their wounds later). Or how about Cannae? Probably a lot more battles out there, but getting accurate counts of the killed in ancient battles can be tricky.

 

Crecy is one with which I'm not familiar.  If it was WWI, how many of those casualties came from artillery?  How many were really trenchfoot, and included only because the victims came from that front at that time?  Was mustard gas used?  How many were machine-gunned at range?

 

Mat's casualties mostly came from the application ( with great force ) of sharp pointy things and sharp edged things to the human body at close range.  Many of the participants would have literally been bathed in blood.

[Lille]

About those battles and losses, I think it was estimated in another thread that theres about 20 million people living in Randland, theres more people living in France alone.

[Serenla]

The gaping hole in his face will still be there even if covered.

So, Mat even says that his skin is so scarred up that it's worthless.  What's one more scar?

Psychologically, which do you think would be more damaging: disfiguring facial wound to man well aware of his good looks, or loss of hand to man who doesn't give a damn about the state of his body provided it gets him through TG? 

I can't find the reference, but Mat had a passage where he is thinking about Tylin's fascination with his scars and her telling him he's pretty or something.  At this point he thinks that women lie to get you in bed and lie even more once they got you there.  So I'm not sold on Mat thinking he's hot.  Also he is embarrassed when women look at him in the clothes that Tylin had made for him.  So I'm not certain Mat cares about his looks enough for it to be that big of a deal and he is possibly bothered by them.  The hanging scar he covers, but I have always seen that as being embarassed about the Snakes and Foxes tricking him, not vanity. 

  And Rand is getting so beat up that it's going to hinder him at TG.  He can't grasp the Power without falling over, he has one hand and very little time to relearn how to sword fight and there's something wrong with his eyes.  It's getting to a point where he has to be concerned as to how effective he can be at TG.  If much more happens a kid with a stick could beat him up.  I'd say that would be pretty damaging considering his whole purpose has become fighting the DO and Forsaken. 

I guess my biggest problem with the eye theory besides that, is what do the Snakes and Foxes want with an eyeball? I can't think of a reason for it.

Who says they want the eyeball?  

Now I'm confused, if Mat is going to give up his eye, that means he has to be faced with some kind of choice.  Give up means that you choose to do something, so he can't just lose his eye, he has to choose to lose his eye.  So if he doesn't give it to the Snakes and Foxes who does he give it to?  And if you take something from somebody, it stands to reason that you want it for something, why would you think about taking it otherwise?

About those battles and losses, I think it was estimated in another thread that theres about 20 million people living in Randland, theres more people living in France alone.

I didn't even think about that...

[Majsju]

Now I'm confused, if Mat is going to give up his eye, that means he has to be faced with some kind of choice.  Give up means that you choose to do something, so he can't just lose his eye, he has to choose to lose his eye.  So if he doesn't give it to the Snakes and Foxes who does he give it to?  And if you take something from somebody, it stands to reason that you want it for something, why would you think about taking it otherwise?

 

That Mat will give up his eye does not mean he will give it to someone. One quite obvious possibility is him plucking out one eye to prevent the Finns from seeing what he is up to. The problem with that is if the Finns are watching through one or both eyes, and how the heck Mat is supposed to know that.

 

The thing is, however, that there are plenty of opportunities other than Mat giving his eye to the Finns.

[Razor]

Lenn flying to the moon in an eagle.  Makes me laugh.  It was Glenn and it was a rocket not an eagle.

 

Actually it was Armstrong, not Glenn, and he did go in an eagle.

 

"The Eagle has landed."

[CUBAREY]

The problem with that is if the Finns are watching through one or both eyes, and how the heck Mat is supposed to know that.

 

 

Another possibility is that Mat finds himself having to bargain with the Foxes over Morraine's freedom and that the price they require is one of his eyes.  That they may not have a use for his eye is not a stumbling block. Part of the price they got in his previous incursion was that he was hanged. Except for Rand's fortuotous actions Mat would have died then and any other benefit the Foxes meant to receive would have been lost.

[Mr Ares]

Lenn flying to the moon in an eagle.  Makes me laugh.  It was Glenn and it was a rocket not an eagle.

Actually it was Armstrong, not Glenn, and he did go in an eagle.

 

"The Eagle has landed."

The story appears to confuse Neil Armstrong going to the moon and John Glenn, who merely circled the Earth.

 

Crecy is one with which I'm not familiar.  If it was WWI, how many of those casualties came from artillery?  How many were really trenchfoot, and included only because the victims came from that front at that time?  Was mustard gas used?  How many were machine-gunned at range?

 

Mat's casualties mostly came from the application (with great force) of sharp pointy things and sharp edged things to the human body at close range.  Many of the participants would have literally been bathed in blood.

Crecy was fought on 26 August 1346, during the Hundred Years War. It was a great English victory over the French, and demonstratd the tactical superiority of the longbow over the crossbow or the mounted knight. The earlier caualty figure I quoted is one of the highest estimates I've seen. 12,000 or so is probably a more reasonable estimate, but it's hard to be sure of exact numbers, for obvious reasons. But almost all of the killing was done, as in Mat's battle, by the application of sharp pointy things and sharp edged things. It's a battle somewhat overshadowed by the more famous Agincourt (I blame Shakespeare - "we few, we happy few, we band of brothers"). Also, I could point out that for all Mat's men may have been literally bathed in blood, Mat himself was behind the lines and the only blood I remember him getting was from an arrow wound to his arm - more of a blood dampening than bath for him.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Now, see, if you'd related it to Agincourt, we'd all have known what you were on about.

 

Yes, sharp pointy things, delivered with force, at range, do ugly and brutal things to armored knights lumbering about on plow horses.

 

Just as in Mat's case, that battle would be considered a massacre/bloodbath/rout/ whatever term of overwhelming victory you prefer.  Unlike in Mat's case - there were survivors among the French Knights.

[Lord Nik]

Killing 50 people can be called a blood bath so I think 10 000 can fall into the category.

[MatrixM]

Wait, i forgot. What are we arguing about again? He's losing his eye?

[Serenla]

Wait, i forgot. What are we arguing about again? He's losing his eye?

Supposedly, although I have yet to be convinced...

Whereas I am sure that it is a possibility, I have presented others that are just as likely.  I'm starting to like the one where his medallion with the one eye came to symbolise him.  I can't see any reason why that wouldn't work. 

As for "giving up half the light of the world...", I still think it was Tuon...

[MatrixM]

When they said "To die and li ve again" were referring to him being hanged, as he thought, or the balefire or has it not happened?