Mat Prophs....

[Serenla]

When they said "To die and li ve again" were referring to him being hanged, as he thought, or the balefire or has it not happened?

RJ confirmed that it was the balefire thing.  Which fits better than the hanging anyway.  "live once more a part of what was" indicates changing the past or events in the past. 

[MatrixM]

Doesn't that refer to the memories?

[Luckers]

It does indeed.

 

About those battles and losses, I think it was estimated in another thread that theres about 20 million people living in Randland, theres more people living in France alone.

 

You've got to keep in mind that the Randland population has dramatically decreased over past thousand years--to a degree that is unnatural given the quality of the land. Near a third stands unclaimed, and not because it cannot sustain life, but because there arn't enough people to hold it.

 

As for the comment about France, the population of our planet has been timesed by 29 in the last 200 years. Modern populations are not an accurate judge. The average population for the entire planet of that technological degree is around 200 million. The westlands represent maybe one sixth of the land mass of the planet, and should sustain around 40 million. Throw in the population decrease... 20 million.

[RAND AL THOR]

Doesn't that refer to the memories?

 

It most certainly does. I'm going to be really blunt here: I very strongly think that the 'live a part of what was' can refer to nothing other than the memories. It is very very very very very clear.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, but - no.

 

Memories are just memories.  Remembering something is not, in any real sense, living it again.  Mat died.  Rand gated to the throne room, chased Rahvin through the palace and into T'a'R, survived Rahvin's traps, and eventually balefired Rahvin. 

 

The amount of balefire used erased Rahvin's acts back to before Mat was killed, restoring Mat, Aviendha, and Asmodean to life, and causing their existence to resume at precisely the instant when they had originally died.  Mat then lived the 'part of what was' between when he had originally died and when Rand balefired Rahvin.

[Luckers]

Except the living again does not speak to actually living in the past. Mat lives again as a part of what was. He lives again, and he has a part of what was. The living is current, it speaks to his actual ongoing life, only now he contains within him a part of something that was--the memories.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The only memories Mat has of "what was" are the memories that he retains of his own past life and those the Eelfin implant.

 

Neither set of memories require Mat to die in order to be accessed.

 

The actual relevant line is:

To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!

 

That constitutes a sequence that begins with his death.  Thereafter, the only thing that qualifies as 'a part of what was' is the interval between when his life 'resumes' and when Rand balefired Rahvin, ( or when he originally died, depending on how far back the balefire rewound time ).

[Serenla]

The only memories Mat has of "what was" are the memories that he retains of his own past life and those the Eelfin implant.

 

Neither set of memories require Mat to die in order to be accessed.

 

The actual relevant line is:

To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!

 

That constitutes a sequence that begins with his death.  Thereafter, the only thing that qualifies as 'a part of what was' is the interval between when his life 'resumes' and when Rand balefired Rahvin, ( or when he originally died, depending on how far back the balefire rewound time ).

 

I agree with you.  "Part of what was" refers to the time line according to the people who saw him die.  To them he died and then was suddenly there at the moment Rand balefired Rahvin.  He remembers an alternate time line where he never died so he was a part of it. 

 

Also Mat is not a part of the memories gained from the Foxes, he simply remembers them.

[MatrixM]

He's reliving a part of what was through his memories, in his head.

[Serenla]

He is not reliving memories, he is remembering them.  Or seeing them like a movie in first person perspective.  He is not a part of them, as he has no more control over them than anyone does when they watch a movie.  No one considers themselves a part of a movie that they saw (unless they were actually in it, which Mat was not). 

[CUBAREY]

No one considers themselves a part of a movie that they saw (unless they were actually in it, which Mat was not).

 

Except that Mat is not seeing a movie he is remembering being an actor in the movie. From his prespective he is seeing himself live those sections of lives he remembers. Thus, he actually is reliving past lives.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No matter how vivid the recall, remembering is not reliving.  Dying is not a requirement for remembering.

To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!

One complete, connected thought.  One complete sequence.  One complete chain of cause and effect.

 

The only 'part of what was' that Mat has experienced is the period of time between when his life 'resumed' and when it originally ended in Caemlyn.

[Luckers]

Once again, reliving is not required by the prophecy. The prophecy states that Mat will live once more as a part of what was--that a part of him is a something that was--and a part of him is, in the memories. Nothing in it requires that Mat personally live those memories, nor does it require that he die to remember them, only that he dies, and that in his life after that death does he have them. It chronology, not method.

 

 

[Paviel]

Robert Jordan himself said that Mat had been hanged from Avendesora long enough to ALMOST be dead, and that the lightning-balefire incident at the end of TFOH fulfilled a prophecy about him dying and living again.

 

What further proof is necessary?

[Lord Nik]

im a little confused with the whole movie watched this idea of explaining mats memories

[RAND AL THOR]

Robert Jordan himself said that Mat had been hanged from Avendesora long enough to ALMOST be dead, and that the lightning-balefire incident at the end of TFOH fulfilled a prophecy about him dying and living again.

 

What further proof is necessary?

 

After RJ himself said this, any further debate is utterly pointless.

[Lord Nik]

im not debating that (there are still lots of other things with mat we can bicker about..) but i just was wondering what they were trying to prove... the memories deal not the balefire one...

--

off topic!

but what role playing stuff is there on here? ;D

[MatrixM]

It's a debate of whether the prophecy saying "and live once more a part of what was" is referring to him reliving the period of time when he died and Rahvin got balefired or him getting memories of the past.

[Luckers]

Indeed, the dying and living was the balefire.

[Lord Nik]

hmmm ok... are there any other prophecies concerning mat in any way?

[Bob T Dwarf]

A number.  Some from the 'Finns, some from Egwene, at least one from Perrin, possibly, Min, as well.

 

I'll quote a couple, but you're going to have to do the heavy lifting for yourself, if you want all of them.

When Mat demands to know his fate, the Aelfinn continue, "To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons! To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was! To give up half the light of the world to save the world! Go to Rhuidean, son of battles! Go to Rhuidean, trickster! Go, gambler! Go!"

 

Mat, placing his own left eye on a balance scale.

Mat, hanging by his neck from a tree limb.

Mat and Seanchan, too.

Mat speaking the Old Tongue.

 

Mat with dice spinning 'round him.

Mat being followed by a man who was not there.

Mat riding desperately toward something unseen in the distance that he had to reach.

Mat with a woman who seemed to be tossing fireworks about. An Illuminator she assumed.

 

There are several more.  Happy searching.

[DemandredFO]

To live again a part of what was, to my mind the operative word is "was".  If as Bob contends that partial line refers to just after the balefire incident, that's what "would have been" because he returned at the instant he was killed and everything after he returned is an alternative that occured because Rahvin was dead.  Whereas with the memories are what "was" because they have happened already and are figuratively written in stone.  Mat is living them because the memories were new, he had never lived them before, the owners of the memories had lived them.  I hate to get this technical but that's what the interpretation required.  Hope that helps.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Mat can't go back in time.  Thus he can't 'relive' any of those memories in any real sense.

 

Nothing says that Rand only knocked them back to the instant of Mat, Avi, and Asmo's collective deaths.  Given the amount of Power used, and the unique description of Rahvin's death, he could have well knocked them all the way back to last Tuesday, for all we know.

 

Thus they all could have relived all of the intervening seconds, minutes, hours, or days, whatever time period it really was.  Woulda been a whole lot of deja vu going on for them, but they would have actually relived that timespan.

[Lord Nik]

hmm ive never thought of that.... i always just thought they just got put back to just before they died.. cool idea

[Luckers]

Again, he doesn't need to relive those memories, he just needs to live, with a part of him being something that was.