Lews Therin beginning in Rand's Head

[Ilyena]

Correct me if I'm wrong people, but did Lews not start popping into rand's head first after the first time in Telanrihod (Chasing Ishy in TDR), then started getting stronger each time he went in? (Example, Andor chasing Rahvin, he actually saw Lews). Is it just me, or is there a connection between Tel and the actual seperate personalities of the Dragon reborn? I mean, it's not like there are multiple Birgitte personalities.

Thoughts?

[trakand_01]

I notice no-one has responded to you Ilyena, sorry for that. I'm afraid I dont know the answer to the first question - when LTT first popped into Rand's head, but I do know that TAR is the one place where Luc/Isam can change form. Also, I'm not sure if Birgitte has even visited TAR since Moghedien ripped her from it.

 

Birgitte and even Mat are different to Rand though - Birgitte has had past lives, she is continuously (or at least was, before) reborn into new lives every time. Mat has not (a point of contention, but so far as we can PROVE) had any previous lives - his memories are all implanted because he asked to have the gaps filled. He didnt specify who's memories he wanted, but it seems to have worked out pretty well for him so far.

 

Rand, however, seems to have the voice of the previous Dragon, in his head.

 

As TAR is where Birgitte used to 'hang out' inbetween waiting to be reborn, I find it plausible that perhaps there is something to do with LTT there too.

[Majsju]

A few things...

 

The Heroes bound to the Horn all hang out in T'A'R inbetween their incarnations. The Dragon is one of the Heroes, though that soul is not always spun out as The Dragon, it can be spun out as a more "normal" Hero.

 

That said, it seems quite unlikely that there would be any connection between T'A'R and LTT starting to talk to Rand, since LTT disappeared from T'A'R when Rand was born. We can see signs of LTT before he starts chatting, by Rand every now and then just "knowing" how to do certain weaves. And we also see the presence of LTT growing stronger in relation to how much Rand uses Saidin.

 

As for Mat, we do have evidence of his previous lives, since he shows memories of them before he visits the Finns. When he recovers in the White Tower for example.

[The Lost One]

Rand has been going there in the flesh and the Wise Ones say that should not be done - that going there in the flesh is a thing of "evil" or something like that.  Maybe going there in the flesh does cause or help along some problem of the mind...or something like that.  I am pretty sure all the people we see go there in the flesh other than Rand are the bad guys and quite a few of them are a little nuts in the head. 

 

I am not sure if there is a connection, but it is a very interesting thought. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rand doesn't equate it with T'a'R.

 

He thinks that LTT's increasing presence grows in step with his own growing use of and power with OP.

 

Whether he is correct is another question.  Rand does make mistakes.

[Guest Dreadlord]

What makes everyone think Lews Therin is a Hero of the Horn? I very strongly doubt that the Dragons soul has anything to do with the Horn other than for the Heroes to follow him if someone on his side blows the Horn.

 

And I would most definitely think if Lews Therin "hanged out" in TAR between rebirths that he would have some knowledge about it, and the fact that no such knowledge has floated across to Rand rules out any link between the Dragon and TAR in my opinion.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's see -

 

Hawkwing knows LTT.  Hawkwing, and Birgitte and others too, are convinced that LTT knows them. 

 

"Or a woman," Hawkwing agreed.  "Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages.  You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh."  He was looking at Rand.

...

To his surprise, several of the small host behind Artur Hawkwing chuckled, and Birgitte, testing her bowstring, laughed.  "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin."  It had a fond sound, as between old friends.

 

How and where did LTT grow to know and become friends with the Heroes of the Horn if not in T'a'R?

[Paviel]

Rand started hearing voices as early as TEOTW, although he didn't recognize them as anybody in particular.

 

"It was coming on evening as they went through the village, and he felt a pang of homesickness as lights appeared in the windows. No matter what it looks like, a small voice whispered in his mind, it isn't really home. Even if you go into one of those houses Tam won't be there. If he was, could you look him in the face? You know, now, don't you? Except for little things like where you come from and who you are. No fever-dreams. He hunched his shoulders against the taunting laughter inside his head." (TEOTW paperback page 458)

 

Of course, it might not have been Lews Therin's voice, but I think it was probably a sign that Rand was starting to go insane.

[Hero of Satsuma]

I don't know about insane, that could just be considered his conscience speaking to him.

 

I think that the first time that I noticed LTT might be rearing his ugly head was during the fight in the Stone, against the Trollocs.  Rand is speaking with Lanfear and he says something to the effect of~

 

You were always in love with power!

 

I thought that was LTT memory.

[Paviel]

I don't know about insane, that could just be considered his conscience speaking to him.

 

And laughing at him?

 

[Jonn]

I don't know about insane, that could just be considered his conscience speaking to him.

 

And laughing at him?

 

 

Sure, I mean you can laugh at yourself can't you? Ever have a bitter thought and all you can do is laugh? Well, I think it'd work pretty much the same way in your head.

 

I do agree that the early signs were actually starting to form in the Shadow Rising. You have these odd moments where Rand says something out loud like he says to Lanfear. It seems similar to Mat's problem where his past lives seep out in certain situations, but they do not take the form of an actual voice in his head. The memories are integrated into his own self identity.

 

The problem with Rand is that that former identity has separated and become a distinct voice and personality, separate from his own. Semirhage used a term called.... I think it was re-integration...something like that. She mentioned that Graendal would know more about it. The condition is extremely rare, but success in treating it is even more rare.

 

Anyone know the exact first time Rand heard anything from Lews Therin that he recognized as Lews Therin?

[OsaroLJ]

Have you guys considered the events of Chapter 55 of TDR as the instigator of LTT's presense? Specifically, when Rand finds himself battling Ishamael in the Heart of the Stone, Ishamael declares that he is about to "take Rand's soul." Immediately, Rand starts feeling a ripping within him; a tearing, so to speak. Rand fervently hangs on to his wound on his side to give him a sense of life.

 

What I'm implying is that "ripping" might have been something that tore the wall between the Dragon's "lives," allowing for them to come in contact with one another; or rather, allowing for the wall to slowly dissipate untill it exists no longer...

 

And then Rand clasps Callandor and the ripping stops...or does it...

[Jonn]

Interesting thought. I'll have to consider that.

[Captain General Miraj]

Just a random thought:

 

Lews Therin is from the Age of Legends and the people in the AOL spoke the Old Tongue in High Chant.  Therefore:

 

Shouldn't Lews Therin be speaking the Old Tongue in Rand's head?

 

I know a voice constantly speaking a weird language in my head would make me go crazy.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well now -

 

Osaro's thought is indeed interesting.  The second time Rand used Callandor, to fight the Trollocs and Myrddraal in the Stone of Tear, is thought to be the first time LTT articulated a coherent thought in Rand's head.  Rand has decided that killing them piecemeal is stupid, and he stops and:

... RaisingCallandor, he drew on the Source, drew on it till it seemed he must scream, screams of frozen flame.  He had to kill them all.

 

Then he makes something he doesn't even understand - a cloud made of so many flows he couldn't even count them...

... The Power raced through him, a raging torrent that threatened to carry all that was him into the spinning.  He had to let go.  He had to.  He forced his eyes open, and it was like looking at all the thunderstorms in the world compressed to the size of a Trolloc's head.  He had to... had to... had to...

 

Now.  The thought floated like cackling laughter on the rim of his awareness.  He severed the flows rushing out of him, leaving the thing still whirling, whining like a drill on bone.  Now.

 

So... Baalzy tries to rip his soul free.  Then he uses Callandor for the first time.  Then when he uses it for the second time, LTT begins to speak in his head.

 

Yeah.  That sequence might be what began breaking down the barrier.  And then his subsequent use of and growing strength with, saidin is what widens the breach until he can now almost have whole conversations with LTT.

 

Note that he also thinks of it as spinning, which is an LTT term, rather than weaving.

 

The logic holds up.  Good catch, Osaro.

 

 

 

[OsaroLJ]

;D

[Jarraad]

Wow, osaro, that really puts a hook on this plot thread, but I dont mean to disrupt this euphoric moment, didn't Cadsuane say that a lot of the ment she had captured who could channel, started hearing their past lives in their heads before they went mad?

[Jonn]

Wow, osaro, that really puts a hook on this plot thread, but I dont mean to disrupt this euphoric moment, didn't Cadsuane say that a lot of the ment she had captured who could channel, started hearing their past lives in their heads before they went mad?

 

Could you source that Jarraad? I know it's tedious, but...

 

Bob T was kind enough to help us connect some dots.

[Mr Ares]

Wow, osaro, that really puts a hook on this plot thread, but I dont mean to disrupt this euphoric moment, didn't Cadsuane say that a lot of the ment she had captured who could channel, started hearing their past lives in their heads before they went mad?

Could you source that Jarraad? I know it's tedious, but...

 

Bob T was kind enough to help us connect some dots.

Cadsuane mentions channeling men hearing voices as part of the madness in ACoS 18. However, she only mentions hearing voices telling them what to do, not that those voices are from past lives. If there's another reference, I'd like to see it. On the other hand, we are told in KoD that hearing real past life voice, like Rand, is a rare form of madness. We know the Taint causes madness. How's that for connecting dots?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yeah, but that information comes from Semirhage.

 

It's a reasonably clever strategem.  On the one hand, it sows doubt and confusion among his closest allies.  On the other it's a ploy to get Rand to trust her and accept her 'help.'

 

"We know how troubling Lews Therin's voice is.  We can only imagine the terrible things he's telling you to do.  How terrible your struggle is.  Let us help you resist that awful man."

 

All to get Rand to accept being collared.  Whether the two who were to wear the bracelets were to be Semi and Graendal or Semi and Mesaana, the result would be the same.

[Mr Ares]

That Semi is the source of the information does not prove that the information is wrong. In fact, is there any evidence going to say that anything Semi said in that exchange is untrue? Plus, what you propose is a bloody stupid strategem. It relies on Rand being willing to submit to the will of one of the Chosen. Rand doesn't submit to anyone, least of all the Shadow. "I have an idea, why don't you, the saviour of the world, put yourself under the control of myself, and maybe one of the other female Chosen as well, that would be a good idea, we would have complete cotrol of your ability to use the Power. What do you say? What do you mean, no? Ungrateful git." Sowing doubt and confusion, that works. But it would work whether what she said was the truth or not. Given that everything we can verify comes back as true, IIRC, then we can hardly say that she is lying based on absolutlely no evidence that she is when if what she says is true she has more reason to say it than to lie. So, evidence that she is lying?

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're taking on faith that her prognosis is accurate.  I choose to not take anything a Forsaken says as accurate until it's proven so.

 

And, BTW, I meant to make clear that something of the sort would have been her argument to Rand had she succeeded in capturing him.

 

Remember, the Forsaken consider everyone of this Age to be barbarian savages, lacking in any sophistication.  Rand, they think of as a hayseed child.

[Mr Ares]

Everything she says that we can check proves true. I really see no reason to disbelieve her given that the evidence supports her telling the truth. And why would she need an argument if she captured him? Just stick the collar on and take control. No argument necessary. Furthermore, if she had just captured Rand, what about those with him? She doesn't need to spread confusion among them with arguments, she can just kill them, torture them until they break, compel them, whatever.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She needs to spread confusion and doubt because she didn't capture him.  What she might have done if she had captured him doesn't enter into it except for how that plan might still be made to work under the changed circumstance of her being the one captured.

 

Rand hears a real voice in his head some of the time.  That doesn't make him crazy.  What would make him actually crazy would be if he behaved according to everything the voice said.  He doesn't.  So, he isn't.

 

Unless we ever do see Rand suddenly go mad ( Moridin succeeding in swapping himself into Rand's body, anyone? ), anything she says is just propaganda.  The best lies are those that contain a grain of truth.

[Luckers]

Rand hears a real voice in his head some of the time.  That doesn't make him crazy.  What would make him actually crazy would be if he behaved according to everything the voice said.  He doesn't.  So, he isn't.

 

Technically there is no such state as crazy. There is only abnormal mental states, and the degree that they effect the persons ability to function. Rand, but that scope, is a schitzophrenic--and growing increasingly affected by that reality. Whether or not the voice is real, its asserting an influence over him....

 

Unless we ever do see Rand suddenly go mad ( Moridin succeeding in swapping himself into Rand's body, anyone? ), anything she says is just propaganda.  The best lies are those that contain a grain of truth

 

Except that everything she's said that we can prove to be true is true, and thats everything she's said except the prospect of a sudden decent into madness. Thats not lies with a grain of truth, thats truth with a grain of a lie--if indeed it were a lie, but Rand's increasingly unstable nature it doesn't seem to be.

 

Which takes it all out of the realm of propaganda. She offered knowledge that we know is true, and a reault that we know is possible. Thats expert opinion, not propaganda.