Lews Therin beginning in Rand's Head

[Luckers]

Currently Rand does not believe that he will go insane. He assumes that he is safe from insanity because he cleansed the Source.

 

I disagree, Rand is quite aware of the increasingly dangerous influence LTT has on him--its why he doesn't take ahold of the Source to either deflect rain, clear the flies or in preparation for his meeting with 'Tuon'.

 

Rand is more than aware of how unstable his mental state is.

 

IF Semi had lied there (I'm talking about the last sentence) and IF Rand believed her, it would damage him physiologically.

That could be an intent in lying.

THIS DOES NOT RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT IT IS TRUE. I am merely providing a reason for WHY Semi would want to create such a lie.

 

True or not, Semirhage's reasons are perfectly clear--by revealing to his compatriots his secrets she presents herself as standing higher than he. She had to know that he was aware of what she was saying, and the negative effects--her purpose had nothing to do with destabalising him through revealing possible outcomes.

 

You meant psychologically, by the way. Physiological things are physical states--an injured arm, a torn hamstring, these are physiological conditions.

 

By stating several things initially which Rand knows are true, and then stating something which Rand doesn;t know about and which could affect him negatively, she is playing a wonderful game.

 

Except that we have supportive evidence for that comment too.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You mean 'the bob's interpretation of her comments is'...

 

She states as i said--Rand hears a real voice, that real voice is dangerous to his mental state, and it can cause a sudden decent into madness. All of which are verifiable to a degree, and none of which suggest she was saying it was inevitable.

 

No I mean that is the essence of what she is saying:

Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin's voice.  It makes no difference that his voice is real, however.  In fact, that makes his situation worse.  Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice.  I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt."  Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

 

First she presents Graendal as his best hope ( something else that is unprovable ), then she says even Graendal wouldn't be able to help, then she says the resulting madness is terminal ( yet another thing that can't be proven).

When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable.

That is in fact what she said and it is unknown and unprovable.

[Luckers]

No I mean that is the essence of what she is saying

 

You mean the list of four points i cited?

 

First she presents Graendal as his best hope ( something else that is unprovable ), then she says even Graendal wouldn't be able to help, then she says the resulting madness is terminal ( yet another thing that can't be proven).

 

Umm... you did read your own comments? She says even Graendal often failed to integrate real voices, which true or not is irrelevant--she's not his best hope even if she could achieve the suggested result. And she never states that his madness must be terminal, she says that in situations like his, the descent into terminal madness can be sudden, nothing more.

 

Which is, as i stated, something we already have evidence for anyway.

 

Quote

When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable.

That is in fact what she said and it is unknown and unprovable.

 

Ah, no buddy. For you again, from your own post "Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice.  I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt."

 

Graendal often failed to intergrate real voices and when people hear real voices the descent to madness can occur suddenly. Sorry.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Graendal often failed to intergrate real voices and when people hear real voices the descent to madness can occur suddenly. Sorry.

 

And your proof for that lies where?  And, by-the-way, it's not just madness but terminal madness.  Remember, she also says:

It makes no difference that his voice is real, however.  In fact, that makes his situation worse.

 

As I said, the essence of her message is: When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable.  There is no way to prove that as of the end of Knife of Dreams.

[Luckers]

And your proof for that lies where?  And, by-the-way, it's not just madness but terminal madness.  Remember, she also says:

 

What? Firstly, the reality that the madness was terminal is stated in my comments--you do realise that terminal madness means only irreversible... not innevitable? Right? The second thing--the proof that Graendal often failed to intergrate real voices--its nowhere, nor do i need it. She states it as such, but nothing in that is particularily important--ergo no reason to prove it, since it has no effect. Graendal may or may not have been weak at reintergrating a real voice, it has nothing to do with this since Graendal's hardly likely to be attempting to help Rand, and he'd not let her if she would.

 

 

As I said, the essence of her message is: When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable.  There is no way to prove that as of the end of Knife of Dreams.

 

Yes, i know you said it, but the books did not. The descent into terminal madness can be sudden--not innevitable.

 

 

 

 

[RAND AL THOR]

Fight! Fight! Fight!

This is ever so entertaining. ;D

 

Currently Rand does not believe that he will go insane. He assumes that he is safe from insanity because he cleansed the Source.

 

I disagree, Rand is quite aware of the increasingly dangerous influence LTT has on him--its why he doesn't take ahold of the Source to either deflect rain, clear the flies or in preparation for his meeting with 'Tuon'.

 

Rand is more than aware of how unstable his mental state is.

 

I was under the impression that Rand stopped seizing the Source so that he doesn't give LTT the chance to seize it. After the Cleansing, has Rand ever thought of going mad/insane? He believes he is going to die-true- but does he worry any longer about going mad?

[Luckers]

I was under the impression that Rand stopped seizing the Source so that he doesn't give LTT the chance to seize it. After the Cleansing, has Rand ever thought of going mad/insane? He believes he is going to die-true- but does he worry any longer about going mad?

 

Mad or insane are not qualitative terms--Rand shows an appreciation of the influence LTT has on his ability to function. Ongoing, inspite of the cleansing.

 

But yes, he has--he directly states that he thought his queeziness, which he directly links to the taint (incorrectly), would have gone away and realises that it has not. Of course all that is because of the link with Moridin, yet nevertheless it shows him thinking of the effects of the taint on his mind.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Terminal doesn't mean inevitable - it means fatal.

 

From Merriam-Webster:

2 a: of, relating to, or occurring in a term or each term <terminal payments> b (1): leading ultimately to death : fatal <terminal cancer> (2): approaching or close to death : being in the final stages of a fatal disease <a terminal patient> (3): of or relating to patients with a terminal illness <terminal care> c: extremely or hopelessly severe <terminal boredom>

 

So, first she tries to make everyone believe his condition is terminal ( as in fatal ) and then she tries to make them believe that a) Graendal was the foremost expert ever on mental illness, and b) that even Graendal could seldom save the patient.

 

Thus, she asserts that:

I.  Rand is insane.

II.  Untreated, his insanity is ultimately fatal, and treatment is almost always futile.

III.  His death from that insanity will be both sudden and unstoppable.

 

IOW, "When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable."