Lews Therin beginning in Rand's Head

[Mr Ares]

Rand hears a real voice in his head some of the time.  That doesn't make him crazy.  What would make him actually crazy would be if he behaved according to everything the voice said.  He doesn't.  So, he isn't.

Surely all this talk of "crazy" or not depends entirely on ones definition of crazy, which is a term used by laypeople, so can be seen as a rather inaccurate one at best. If one chooses to define voices in your head as crazy, then Rand is crazy.

[Jonn]

Rand hears a real voice in his head some of the time.  That doesn't make him crazy.  What would make him actually crazy would be if he behaved according to everything the voice said.  He doesn't.  So, he isn't.

Surely all this talk of "crazy" or not depends entirely on ones definition of crazy, which is a term used by laypeople, so can be seen as a rather inaccurate one at best. If one chooses to define voices in your head as crazy, then Rand is crazy.

 

In medical circles the term "psychotic" is generally the word of choice that defines the series of events where intervention is needed to be immediately applied to a patient.

 

General definition is when a person is displaying activities, actions, behaviors, which may or may not be episodic, that present an immediate danger to themselves and/or others.

 

A person may struggle with a condition, may need constant treatment and attention, even medication, but may not be categorically insane or psychotic. They may suffer compulsions, have symptoms of schizophrenia like hallucinations and delusional beliefs. Still, if they can demonstrate a level of coping showing awareness of their difficulties in some way and they attempt to compensate and deal with their problems, medically it's not advised to refer to a person like this as "crazy".

 

It is the act that places a person in danger that prompts intervention of others to manage a psychotic episode for the person suffering a crisis.

 

Now, by my reckoning, Rand is in a dangerous place to be sure, but he has thus far been trying to manage his difficulties on his own. He has had moments that can be defined as psychotic, such as when he used Callandor and killed some of his own men. Generally though, his actions have come from stressful situations and his stress level presents a strain on him on a day to day basis. He has endured many many insults to his psychological as well as physical self, and no doubt, he is in desperate need of relief and help, rest...

Semirhage no doubt knows this being a medically trained professional and probably sees this as a tool to be used against her captors.

 

I foresee Nynaeve trying to Heal Rand, but as Semirhage explained, the realm of expertise needed is not in a Healer's hands. You would need someone who specializes in Compulsion and weaving that affects the mind. Someone strong in Spirit, which is a rare thing from what I gather.

 

I do think Ishamael was actually very strong in Spirit. He Healed Lews Therin to give him his moment of clarity before his suicide. From what we can tell at this point, it was probably him that caused Rand's current. 

[Mr Ares]

From what we can tell at this point, it was probably Ishamael that caused Rand's current.

From what we can tell, looking at the evidence, why is Ishamael more likely than the Taint? Given that the Taint causes conditions laypeople could refer to as "craziness" and Rand could be considered, by a layperson, to be crazy, it fits much better, to my mind.

[Jonn]

From what we can tell at this point, it was probably Ishamael that caused Rand's current.

From what we can tell, looking at the evidence, why is Ishamael more likely than the Taint? Given that the Taint causes conditions laypeople could refer to as "craziness" and Rand could be considered, by a layperson, to be crazy, it fits much better, to my mind.

 

Have you guys considered the events of Chapter 55 of TDR as the instigator of LTT's presense? Specifically, when Rand finds himself battling Ishamael in the Heart of the Stone, Ishamael declares that he is about to "take Rand's soul." Immediately, Rand starts feeling a ripping within him; a tearing, so to speak. Rand fervently hangs on to his wound on his side to give him a sense of life.

 

What I'm implying is that "ripping" might have been something that tore the wall between the Dragon's "lives," allowing for them to come in contact with one another; or rather, allowing for the wall to slowly dissipate untill it exists no longer...

 

And then Rand clasps Callandor and the ripping stops...or does it...

 

I misspoke perhaps. What I mean to say is considering the more recent discussion of what could possibly explain Rand's disassociation.

 

There is a chronological progression stemming from the event.

 

Ishamael was doing something. And it seems to me that it was more than simply to kill Rand.

 

Semirhage was talking about a phenomenon that existed before the Taint on Saidin from her experience as a top Healer. She professes that Rand's condition is such that the "voice" in his head is real and that it is a rare occurrence.

 

Now I don't remember reading about how the Taint commonly makes men hear the voices of their past lives. If someone could point out where we could find that source, that would be helpful. I simply remember the Taint just driving you insane and making you rot alive.

 

Rand's case is special though. He has a very strong soul attached to him, ta'veren like him and notoriously strong at that.

 

I think it deserves consideration and Osaro had a decent take on the situation.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Semirhage said Graendal-the expert-who would have NO REASON AT ALL to lie to Semirhage about it-told her that madness sometimes, very rarely, creates a connection between a person and their past life. She said that the connection is real, that the voice they hear is a real voice. She said the fact that it is a real voice is a symptom of that type of rare madness, which confirms that, as Lews Therin is a real voice, Rand has that rare type of madness. It isn't a common side effect of Taint madness; Semirhage said it is very rare.

 

So the fact that he hears Lews Therin as a real voice confirms that Rand has this rare type of madness. This isnt the type of madness that makes people incoherent, babbling fools like Padan Fain. It is a type of madness that, as far as we can tell, is unique to Rand at the time of the story, so it isnt a something you can cross-reference against other mad characters with, if you get what I mean. So all we have to go off are Cadsuanes words, Semirhages words, and Rands POVs. Considering that everything Cadsuane and Semirhage said on this subject match, and that each point they make has been proven by what we see through Rands eyes, it is safe to believe what Semirhage said.

 

All this talk about LTTs voice being a "coping mechanism" has nothing to back it up. Unless someone can provide a link to where RJ said it I cant believe it for a second. The memories didnt start coming before Rand started channeling (the first time he channelled was when he gave his horse stamina early in book 1). If the memories were going to come on their own, surely they would have popped up early in Rands life, not after puberty. If were looking at this from a realistic point of view, like the people who follow the "coping mechanism" idea-which I dont believe at all-then think about this. In real life, when people have memories that have been speculated to be from a past life, those memories dont pop out of nowhere when your twenty years old. And besides, this isnt real life. So while some things about the series seem very realistic-like the way Rands duty is eating him up inside-not everything is based on real life logic in the series. Lews Therins voice is real, and that CONFIRMS that Rand is mad.

[Mr Ares]

So Ishy was doing something but we're not entirely sure what, or how much of that goal he accomplished. And the chronological sequence - Ishy atacks, Rand stops him, sometime later a voice starts - could be applied to many things: Rand had lunch, the voice starts, Rand has more lunch and the voice gets worse. So why shouldn't we theorise about LTT being related to Rand's lunch? Correlation!=causation, as they say. We don't have any real evidence supporting this theory - we don't even know if it is possible. On the other hand, we have LTT's voice is a form of madness, the taint causes madness, Rand is exposed to the taint. And the taint doesn't cause any specific form of madness, any mental condition it causes could have occured without the taint as a catalyst. All the evidence we have suggests that this is possible.

[Luckers]

Agreed. By all comments Ishamael was trying to rip Rand's soul clean out, not rip it in half and allow a previous voice to manifest, and by all comments Rand was successful in stopping him.

 

Meanwhile, by all comments the taint causes instability of the mind resulting in normal deviations of the mind. The manifestation of a past life voice is a normal deviation of the mind.

 

Logically, the taint is the cause.

[OsaroLJ]

Agreed. By all comments Ishamael was trying to rip Rand's soul clean out, not rip it in half and allow a previous voice to manifest, and by all comments Rand was successful in stopping him.

 

Meanwhile, by all comments the taint causes instability of the mind resulting in normal deviations of the mind. The manifestation of a past life voice is a normal deviation of the mind.

 

Logically, the taint is the cause.

 

Perhaps...but it seems to me that Ishamael intent isn't the point here. Something happened to Rand and RJ purposefully has ignored it. Nothing like that has taken place again in the books yet. Also, I think its a bit presumptious to think Rand was "successful" in stopping the ripping. All he did was grab Callandor...we don't actually know what effect Callandor had on the situation.

 

What i'm trying to get at is that LTT manifestations start merely a few days after this event...this is the only significant event that happened before Rand's encounter with Lanfear in TSR. To me, it makes sense that Ishamael's attempt at destroying Rand soul was partially successfull: he ripped the wall between manifestations wide open.

[Lord Nik]

Lews Therins voice is real, and that CONFIRMS that Rand is mad.

--

How does that confirm Rand is insane

[OsaroLJ]

Lews Therins voice is real, and that CONFIRMS that Rand is mad.

--

How does that confirm Rand is insane

 

The fact that he's hearing voices (real or not) confirms that Rand, to a certain extent, is mentally abnormal. Some call that insanity...others call it a gift...

 

And yes, the voice is real...

[CUBAREY]

[/bThe fact that he's hearing voices (real or not) confirms that Rand, to a certain extent, is mentally abnormal. Some call that insanity...others call it a gift...

 

And yes, the voice is real...

 

 

]

 

mENTALLY ABNORMAL DOES NOT MAKE HIM INSANE IT ONLY MAKES HIM MENTALLY ABNORMAL. rAND HAS NOT LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY, HE CAN TELL TELL THE BETWEEN WHAT IS REAL ANS WHAT IS NOT. IF, AND ONLY IF, LTT'S VOICE WAS NOT ACTUALLY THERE WOULD RAND BE INSANE. RAND MAY HAVE A FEW MENTAL ISSUES BUT HE IS NOT INSANE (AT LEAST NOT YET).

[Brigadier]

Interesting discussion.  I joined the site just so I could present my own theory and see what everyone thinks.

It seems to me that the first time Lews Therin manifested in Rand was at the climax of the battle over Falme.  Rand tells Baalzamon that he will never serve him, and knows that in a thousand lifetimes he never has.  I may be mistaken, but I think this was the first major prophecy announcing The Dragon's rebirth that Rand fulfilled.  As Rand fulfills more and more of the Prophecies, Lews Therin becomes more and more prominent.  I think that the soul/former life of Lews Therin comes through more and more as Rand fulfills the place of the Dragon Reborn in the Pattern.  It's similar to the way Birgitte and the dead heroes remember their former lives until they're born again.  However, since Rand is a special case (prophesied rebirth of a specific person) and more taveren than anyone else, it's causing Lews Therin to reemerge as prophecy is fulfilled.  I'm not sure about the madness angle.  Most of the symptoms that seem to me like Rand is on a mental downslide seem to be in the form of paranoia and mistrust.  I think that may be a combination of PTSD from the kidnapping (book 6) and the cut from the Shadar Logoth dagger.

 

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well enough.  Your thoughts?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Semirhage explains the reason why Rand hears Lews Therin in KoD. She quotes Graendal, who is an expert on madness.

[Mr Ares]

[/bThe fact that he's hearing voices (real or not) confirms that Rand, to a certain extent, is mentally abnormal. Some call that insanity...others call it a gift...

 

And yes, the voice is real...

 

 

]

 

mENTALLY ABNORMAL DOES NOT MAKE HIM INSANE IT ONLY MAKES HIM MENTALLY ABNORMAL. rAND HAS NOT LOST TOUCH WITH REALITY, HE CAN TELL TELL THE BETWEEN WHAT IS REAL ANS WHAT IS NOT. IF, AND ONLY IF, LTT'S VOICE WAS NOT ACTUALLY THERE WOULD RAND BE INSANE. RAND MAY HAVE A FEW MENTAL ISSUES BUT HE IS NOT INSANE (AT LEAST NOT YET).

Do we have to go over the "experts don't use the term insane, laypeople do use the term but how they use it can vary wildly" thing again?

 

Agreed. By all comments Ishamael was trying to rip Rand's soul clean out, not rip it in half and allow a previous voice to manifest, and by all comments Rand was successful in stopping him.

 

Meanwhile, by all comments the taint causes instability of the mind resulting in normal deviations of the mind. The manifestation of a past life voice is a normal deviation of the mind.

 

Logically, the taint is the cause.

 

Perhaps...but it seems to me that Ishamael intent isn't the point here. Something happened to Rand and RJ purposefully has ignored it. Nothing like that has taken place again in the books yet. Also, I think its a bit presumptious to think Rand was "successful" in stopping the ripping. All he did was grab Callandor...we don't actually know what effect Callandor had on the situation.

 

What i'm trying to get at is that LTT manifestations start merely a few days after this event...this is the only significant event that happened before Rand's encounter with Lanfear in TSR. To me, it makes sense that Ishamael's attempt at destroying Rand soul was partially successfull: he ripped the wall between manifestations wide open.

We have no evidence what you suggest is possible. As for RJ ignoring what happened to Rand, maybe he had a reason. A reason like, nothing happened. Ishamael tried to do something, he failed, there were no further ill consequences so it wasn't brought up again. But Rand continued to have contact with the madness causing Taint, after Ishy was stopped, a couple of weeks later when Lanfear showed up, maybe a few times in between...

 

Interesting discussion.  I joined the site just so I could present my own theory and see what everyone thinks.

It seems to me that the first time Lews Therin manifested in Rand was at the climax of the battle over Falme.  Rand tells Baalzamon that he will never serve him, and knows that in a thousand lifetimes he never has.  I may be mistaken, but I think this was the first major prophecy announcing The Dragon's rebirth that Rand fulfilled.  As Rand fulfills more and more of the Prophecies, Lews Therin becomes more and more prominent.  I think that the soul/former life of Lews Therin comes through more and more as Rand fulfills the place of the Dragon Reborn in the Pattern.  It's similar to the way Birgitte and the dead heroes remember their former lives until they're born again.  However, since Rand is a special case (prophesied rebirth of a specific person) and more taveren than anyone else, it's causing Lews Therin to reemerge as prophecy is fulfilled.  I'm not sure about the madness angle.  Most of the symptoms that seem to me like Rand is on a mental downslide seem to be in the form of paranoia and mistrust.  I think that may be a combination of PTSD from the kidnapping (book 6) and the cut from the Shadar Logoth dagger.

 

I'm not sure if I'm explaining it well enough.  Your thoughts?

I would say the first major prophecy Rand fulfilled that announced Rand's rebirth was the one about his rebirth - born on the slopes of Dragonmount, of a Maiden wed to no man. Call me crazy (I blame the Taint), that's just what I think. As it is, About twenty years went by between Rand's birth and Falme, with nary a sign of anything odd, like a madman's voice in his head, or another man's memories, and so on. Also, I'm not sure why Rand fulfilling the role of the Dragon Reborn would cause the further manifestation of the Dragon? Plus, metal downslide, paranoia, these things can't be considered madness? And Rand has been in contact with the Taint...and it does cause madness....see where I'm going?

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

About twenty years went by between Rand's birth and Falme, with nary a sign of anything odd, like a madman's voice in his head, or another man's memories, and so on

UNQUOTE

 

Thats my point as well. None of Lews Therins memories appeared in Rands head until he started channeling. Rand doesnt hear the voice as some sort of gift because he's the Dragon Reborn. He hears it because he has the rare type of madness Semirhage described. Its nothing to do with what happened with Ishamael, nothing to do with Ta'veren, and not something he recieved as Champion of the Light to help him. The connection between lives is a side effect of Rands madness. As for why Lews Therins presence becomes stronger over time, that has nothing to do with Rand fulfilling prophecies. It is because his madness is getting worse, both because of the Taint and because Rands duty is eating away at the sanity he has left. As the madness slowly gets worse, the connection between lives gets stronger, and the barrier between gets weaker. It has nothing to do with fulfilling the prophecies.

 

I dont see how people can question this. It is said in black and white by Semirhage-who explains that she heard it from an expert on madness-and those comments Semirhage makes are backed up by everything Cadsuane says and everything Rand experiences.

[Crayak]

Assuming the taint was the instigator of Rand hearing LTT, how could any of the forsaken, except perhaps Ishy, know about it since the taint didn't appear until after they were sealed?

 

Wouldn't that imply that either Semirhage is lieing, or that it isn't caused by the taint?

[Avery]

Assuming the taint was the instigator of Rand hearing LTT, how could any of the forsaken, except perhaps Ishy, know about it since the taint didn't appear until after they were sealed?

 

They know that there is a rare kind of madness that makes you hear the voice of past lives. You can develop this madness without the taint. In Rand's case, the taint is making him mad, and his type of madness is this rare form where he's connected to his past life. The taint is causing the madness; the madness is causing him to hear LTT; therefore the taint is causing him to hear LTT.

 

At least that's how I'm seeing it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Assuming the taint was the instigator of Rand hearing LTT, how could any of the forsaken, except perhaps Ishy, know about it since the taint didn't appear until after they were sealed?

 

Wouldn't that imply that either Semirhage is lieing, or that it isn't caused by the taint?

UNQUOTE

 

What, you mean the things she lied about, that just happen to be true? No. We have seen the things Semirhage said happen. It would imply that the Taint doesn't cause any particular type of madness. The connection between Rand and Lews Therin was caused by Rands madness; in this instance, that madness was partially caused by the Taint, along with the pressure of saving the world. But it isnt just the Taint that can cause this kind of madness. And, again, if Lews Therin wasnt caused by the madness, why didnt he appear until after Rand had been channeling for a while?

[Bob T Dwarf]

It would imply that the Taint doesn't cause any particular type of madness.

 

If the taint "doesn't cause any particular type of madness", then how would Semirhage or anyone else know what specific symptoms Rand would experience?

 

If the taint does cause only a particular form of 'madness', again, how would any of the Forsaken know what it was?  The taint and any of its effects didn't appear until after they had all been sealed away.  They've all been a little too busy since 'waking up' to do enough extensive observation and testing of male channelers to learn the specifics of any particular kind of 'taint madness.'

 

The only possible explanation for what Semi says is that she took things Lanfear had insisted were true ( LTT was really in there somewhere ), concocted a nightmare scenario based upon that speculation, and is now throwing it out for whatever psychological warfare shock value it might have.  She can't actually know anything about Rand's condition, its likely prognosis, nor its eventual outcome.

 

It's nothing but a ploy to sow confusion and doubt among her captors which she hopes to exploit in order to escape.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

If the taint "doesn't cause any particular type of madness", then how would Semirhage or anyone else know what specific symptoms Rand would experience?

UNQUOTE

 

They didnt know what he would experience. Lanfear told the other Chosen that Rand knows things only Lews Therin could know, and from this Graendal confirmed to the other Chosen that Rand has the rare type of madness.

 

QUOTE

The only possible explanation for what Semi says is that she took things Lanfear had insisted were true ( LTT was really in there somewhere ), concocted a nightmare scenario based upon that speculation, and is now throwing it out for whatever psychological warfare shock value it might have.  She can't actually know anything about Rand's condition, its likely prognosis, nor its eventual outcome.

 

It's nothing but a ploy to sow confusion and doubt among her captors which she hopes to exploit in order to escape.

UNQUOTE

 

Let me spell it out. From what Semirhage said, it is easy to gather that semi, Graendal and Lanfear have had a discussion about this.

 

Lanfear tells them that Rand knows things only Lews Therin could. Graendal says "Theres only one explanation for that. He has the rare type of madness that connects you to your past life. I know this because madness is my speciality. And you can believe me because I would gain absolutely nothing from lying to you about this." Semirhage takes all this in, and later on tells it to Rand & co.

 

Semirhage TOLD THE TRUTH to cause the shock/whatever bullcrap you said Bob.

 

QUOTE

If the taint does cause only a particular form of 'madness', again, how would any of the Forsaken know what it was?  The taint and any of its effects didn't appear until after they had all been sealed away.  They've all been a little too busy since 'waking up' to do enough extensive observation and testing of male channelers to learn the specifics of any particular kind of 'taint madness.'

UNQUOTE

 

Graendal identifies Rands madness as the rare type. Judging from the fact that the Forsaken werent about when the Taint happened, we can gather that the Taint ISNT the only thing that can cause this madness. The Taint CAN cause it, but its not the only thing that causes it, and it isnt the only type of madness the Taint can cause-that bit we can see for ourselves.

[Bob T Dwarf]

So, you're saying that they believed Lanfear.  And, based on nothing but the beliefs of someone who was abnormally fixated on LTT, who wanted to believe he still existed - somehow, some way - they came up with a totally accurate diagnosis?  Of someone neither of them had even seen?

 

And, why, precisely, would you think that Graendal wouldn't lie about this?  She's still trying to get each of the others to do something fatal so that she ends up as Nae'blis.

 

I realize that this is a fantasy series, but that's just way over the top.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Just because they are Chosen and dont trust each other it doesnt mean they think everything they say is a lie. They are Chosen, granted, but people seem to think the Chosen cant tell the truth. Its as if everyone thinks they have taken an Oath on an Oath Rod to always lie.

 

Theres no two ways about this; I know I am right. This conversation has gone round in circles for too long. If you cant believe something that is in plain black and white in the books then maybe you shouldn't read them. I give up.

[Asmo]

It would provide epic lulz if Rand's madness had nothing to do with saidin and the taint. Nothing Semirhage said connects it to the channeling. Perhaps it's just mad - pun not intended - ta'veren chance that Rand would belong to one of those very few who hear past voices in their heads. And of course, it would have to be Lews Therin, since he was, actually, the Dragon before Rand. Who was mad.

[Lord Nik]

Semirhage described

please stop with the forsaken said this as evidence saying rand is insane. Lews Therin's voice is real, we know that. He happens to have a REAL voice in his head how does that make him insane.

[Brigadier]

I knew I wasn't being clear enough.  I'll try again.  Rand's birth on Dragonmount was the first prophecy fulfilled, but I don't think it announced his coming to the world since only 3 people knew about it (not counting Tam).  Falme, in my opinion, is the first announcement to the world that the Dragon is Reborn, followed the next spring by the fall of the Stone.  It seems to me that as the series progresses, Rand becomes less of himself and more of The Dragon Reborn as demanded by the Pattern.  I do agree that saidin is the catalyst behind the emerging Lews Therin, but I think that Lews Therin would have re-emerged even without the taint.  It really hadn't occurred to me that Semirhage wasn't being truthful about the past life emergence being a form of madness until I read it here.  I just think that it was bound to happen, taint or otherwise.  Also, I would call the paranoia Rand has developed to be early stages of mental illness, but I thought it was a result of the dagger cut.  I never really noticed the paranoia until book 8, after Rand was cut.

Of course, I could be totally off base.  But it's fun to speculate on.