Lews Therin beginning in Rand's Head

[Luckers]

Why would LTT have surfaced without the destablizing influence of the Taint?

[benr]

I knew I wasn't being clear enough.  I'll try again.  Rand's birth on Dragonmount was the first prophecy fulfilled, but I don't think it announced his coming to the world since only 3 people knew about it (not counting Tam).  Falme, in my opinion, is the first announcement to the world that the Dragon is Reborn, followed the next spring by the fall of the Stone. 

 

Perhaps a petty point, but at the end of TEOTW, in Shienar, the Dragon Reborn is announced to a large number of people.  Maybe not the whole world, but word spread from there.  Also, in the prologue to TGH, it is announced to the DFs that the Dragon is reborn, although they aren't told exactly who.  Falme is certainly an even bigger proclamation, but not the first.

 

I am uncertain on this - I don't recall Rand hearing LTTs voice in his living of alternate lives while using the Portal Stone. Perhaps this is because he never claims his status as the DR. If he isn't hearing LTT, then something in his actual life path caused it - not JUST the taint.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

I am uncertain on this - I don't recall Rand hearing LTTs voice in his living of alternate lives while using the Portal Stone. Perhaps this is because he never claims his status as the DR. If he isn't hearing LTT, then something in his actual life path caused it - not JUST the taint.

UNQUOTE

 

Or maybe Lews Therin had nothing to say at that time. And LTT isnt there just because of the Taint-he is there because of the madness, which is only partially due to the Taint, as well as Rands duty eating away at him.

[RAND AL THOR]

For some reason, despite all the evidence, my brain just refuses to digest the theory that LTT is there because of the taint or madness. I think LTT has served too great a purpose so far to merely have such a weak reason for his existance. Especially, consider the yet-to-happen part that Min saw about two men flickering and merging into one and one dying. I think that refers to LTT dying and getting out of Rand's head.

I know my standing is weak but I hope it turns out this way.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Especially, consider the yet-to-happen part that Min saw about two men flickering and merging into one and one dying.

UNQUOTE

 

*cough* Moridin *cough*

[RAND AL THOR]

QUOTE

Especially, consider the yet-to-happen part that Min saw about two men flickering and merging into one and one dying.

UNQUOTE

 

*cough* Moridin *cough*

 

Is there any possibility that it is LTT and not Moridin? That is what Rand seems to think. ??? I know that most people seem to think it is Moridin but all the body-swap and all that seems way too complicated and such events would be extremely confusing in a book that is already going to have to complete a vast number of side-plots. ;)

[OsaroLJ]

Dude, we've been over this a BILLION times: IT'S FRIGGIN MORIDIN!

[Guest Dreadlord]

The viewing says one dies, which hints that both are alive. Lews Therin is already dead.

[MatrixM]

About the whole "Rand=Hero" thing, couldn't they have recognised him since they remember past lives with him?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Do you mean the Heroes of the Horn? They did recognise him because they recognised his soul. They called him Lews Therin, and they knew it was him even though it was Mat who blew the Horn.

[MatrixM]

So Heroes of the Horn can recognise a reborn Hero?

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's unclear.

 

They can and do clearly recognize the reborn soul of LTT.

[MatrixM]

Well, if it's unclear then there's no reasoning that he is a Hero.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Whether or not Rand is a Hero it is obvious the Heroes recognise him as an incarnation of Lews Therin.

[Luckers]

About the whole "Rand=Hero" thing, couldn't they have recognised him since they remember past lives with him?

 

Except that Hawkwing directly infers knowledge on Rand--'you could tell him yourself, could you but remember when you wore flesh [paraphrase]'

 

He directly implies common experience with Rand at a time when neither wore flesh, thus not past lives.

[MatrixM]

What was the context of that quotation?

[Luckers]

The Great Hunt. Hawkwing was speaking of the nature of being a Hero of the Horn, and of the limitations.

[MatrixM]

Ahh, okay. It makes sense now.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Back to the original question -

 

One could argue that LTT has always been there throughout the entire series.  Rand just 'instinctively' knows how to do too much.  Even going back to the very beginning of his channeling.

 

The first instance of LTT articulating anything may actually be a little earlier than what I originally quoted.  In TSR, Selene comes into Rand's room in the Stone of Tear, just before the big dustup with the Trollocs etal, and reveals herself as Lanfear while trying to entice Rand into joining her.  Telling him all manner of provocative things.

 

Out of the blue, without any conscious intention, he responds, "And, you always loved power."

 

Clearly that came straight from LTT.

[DemandredFO]

Lews Therin may have always been there but it was only after Ishamael tried to rip Rands soul out in tDR do we see LTT actively speaking and consciously(so to speak) acting.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Agreed.

 

That may have been the initial causative factor.  The thing that allowed the taint or whatever to push the linkage between Rand and LTT to the state it now has.  I still think that was a good catch.  Rand certainly didn't have any problem following Baalzy into T'a'R afterwards - something he should have found impossible.

[RAND AL THOR]

Agreed.

 

LTT's knowledge has been leaking into Rand without Rand realizing it for a long time.

 

One thing though: Asmo covers the Travelling gateway made by Avi in Book 5. He says he was bending light. I am assuming that Rand would have demanded to know how that was done afterwards and would have learned the trick.

 

Now,

In book 6, to hide Egwene he does something similar. Why did he need LTT to tell him how to do it if he had already learned it from Asmo?

 

Of course I am basing this on the assumption that Asmo taught Rand the weave. I think such an assumption would be valid.

[Luckers]

Perhaps Rand was not listening to LTT when he cocked his head when inverting Light around Egwene--perhaps he was remembering what Asmodean had taught him, and the 'him' in the 'it seems to ripple when you move, burn him' was Asmodean.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

No way. I remember very clearly that Rand said "So you ARE there! Too much of a coincedence for you to think of that now."

 

It was definitely LTT suggesting making Egwene invisible. Unless Asmo taught him the weave and LTT reminded him of it, but LTT definitely gave Rand the idea of bending the light that time

[RAND AL THOR]

From LOC:

 

He spoke, but definitely not to her. "You are there," he whispered hoarsely. "Too much coincidence for you to think of that now." He was staring at nothing with a look of fury, and maybe fear. "Burn you, answer me!I know you're there!"

 

and then:

 

"Don't move!" In a disgusted tone he added, "Burn him, it seems it ripples if you move. I'll fasten it to the floor, but you still can't jump about. I don't know how pig I can make it, and this is no time to find out."

Somara's mouth had fallen open, though she snapped it shut quickly.

 

From this I find it very likely that Rand used LTT's knowledge to hide Egwene. But he didn;t have to do so if he learnt it from Asmo, which I am sure he did.

 

Rand doesn't usually need any reminding of a weave. In fact, I have yet to see an AS 'forget' how to weave a weave once they have learnt it.