Lews Therin beginning in Rand's Head

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed, the only time we see someone forget how to do something is when Rand is still learning

[Elgee]

To refer back to the mad/not mad thing for a moment:

 

Fact A: People who hear voices that ARE NOT THERE are considered crazy, precisely because the voices are NOT there.

 

Fact B: Rand hears a voice that IS there - logically speaking that should then mean that he is NOT crazy (well, not for that specific reason).

[Guest Dreadlord]

This has been covered a million times. The type of madness Rand is suffering from has created a connection between him and his past life aka LTT, a real connection, where he hears a real voice. Him hearing the real voice is a sympton of the type of madness he has. Semirhage said it all in KoD and the fact that everything she said goes along with everything we see through Rand, as well as everything taht Cadusane says, points out that Semirhage was telling the truth.

[Luckers]

Elgee, 'crazy' is not an actual state. Psychologists look at the abnormal mental states, and the degree to which they effect normal social interaction. By which Rand would be classified as a highly functional schitzophrenic.

 

I would also point out that your wrong in any case... many manifestations of aberrant voices are a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, and are thus very real. Abnormal, yes. But since there is no such a thing a normal psychological state its pretty stupid to dance around that.

[RAND AL THOR]

This has been covered a million times.

 

billion trillion poly-zillion times!

[Luckers]

As to the issue, he says 'so you are there, too much coincidence for you to think of that now'.

 

That provides for Asmodean teaching him--he knew the weave, his dirct comment is that Lews Therin brought it up, he still knew exactly what he meant.

[Elgee]

RAND AL THOR and Dreadlord, both of you have made arguments that I have seen countless times on here. I did not make any belittling or sarcastic remarks about that, so I would appreciate the same respect from you.

 

Luckers:

 

Elgee, 'crazy' is not an actual state. Psychologists look at the abnormal mental states, and the degree to which they effect normal social interaction. By which Rand would be classified as a highly functional schitzophrenic.

 

I would also point out that your wrong in any case... many manifestations of aberrant voices are a result of a chemical imbalance in the brain, and are thus very real. Abnormal, yes. But since there is no such a thing a normal psychological state its pretty stupid to dance around that.

 

I'm very well aware that "crazy" is not an actual state, I simply used the generic word, as most others have done on here.

 

We are not discussing a mental patient's case history on earth, though - we are discussing a fictional character in a fantasy series, where an ACTUAL person is residing in someone else's head, not a PERCEIVED person brought on by a mental state, whether chemically induced or otherwise.

[RAND AL THOR]

RAND AL THOR and Dreadlord, both of you have made arguments that I have seen countless times on here. I did not make any belittling or sarcastic remarks about that, so I would appreciate the same respect from you.

 

 

You shall have it!

Apologies, it was just a joke.

(And before someone asks, no there is no such thing as poly-zillion).

[Elgee]

Thank you, RAND AL THOR *shakes hands*  :D

 

And I think you should get the brain boxes like Luckers to think up something for poly-zillion - it's too cool a phrase to throw away  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Let's start with what it was that Semirhage actually said:

Semirhage saved him the effort of thinking up a lie.  "He's insane," she said, coolly.  Standing there stiff as a statue, Min's knife hilt still sticking out beside her collarbone and the front of her black dress glistening with blood, she might have been a queen on her throne.  "Graendal could explain it better than I.  Madness was her specialty.  I will try, however.  You know of people who hear voices in their heads?  Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives.  Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know.  Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin's voice.  It makes no difference that his voice is real, however.  In fact, that makes his situation worse.  Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice.  I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt."  Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

 

The statement contains two things we know to be objectively true.  Rand does hear LTT and Graendal was a specialist in treating mental illness.

 

If I were to say, "The sun is a ball of hydrogen gas which is being fused into highly energetic plasma by the action of gravity as it transforms that hydrogen into heavier elements, and the moon is a ball of green cheese.", the first part of the statement would be adequately true, but the last part is patently false.

 

So, how should we consider that entire statement?  True?  Or, False?

 

The same meterstick has to be applied to Semi's statement.  Two isolated truths, surrounded by a sea of self-serving gibberish do not constitute a body of truth.  What Semi truly "understands" is that the situation provides her a golden opportunity to strew confusion and doubt among her enemies.  She does so through a skillful lie.  One which contains just enough truth to be very believable.

 

What I fail to grasp, is why, although the characters are meant to believe this load of rubbish, so many readers - who have ample evidence throughout the entire series of how unreliable and deliberately deceitful the Forsaken are - choose to believe it, as well.

 

I say, let's wait and see.  Did Semirhage tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?  I'd say the probability is too low to bet on.

 

[Lord Nik]

This has been covered a million times.

 

billion trillion poly-zillion times!

which is y i have decided to take my leave from this thread.. farewell!! :D

[benr]

Regardless of whether Rand is "mad" or not, it seems pretty clear that LTT is.  It takes alot of effort to keep your sanity while hearing an insane voice that no-one else does.  Semi may be lying about the abrupt descent into total madness, but if the sum personality suddenly were more LTT than Rand, then it would happen.

[Mysterious]

Greandal was a psychiatrist during the Age of Legends:

 

 

Though as one of the Chosen dedicated to sensual pleasure, she had been far different before the Bore. Kamarile Maradim Nindar was a noted ascetic, not only living a spare and simple life, but preaching that others should as well. Kamarile Maradim was famed and loved around the world, if apparently more often by people who had heard of her than by those who actually knew her. Dedicated to curing those with mental illness that the One Power and Healing could not touch, she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived. Those who knew her well often did not like her. While her public calls for a sparse life were always moderate, in private she was inevitably abrasive and cutting toward anyone who did not live up to her standards of simplicity, which meant toward everyone.

 

 

Critical Analysis should be taken when viewing any evidence provided by the Forsaken.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Mr Ares]

If I were to say, "The sun is a ball of hydrogen gas which is being fused into highly energetic plasma by the action of gravity as it transforms that hydrogen into heavier elements, and the moon is a ball of green cheese.", the first part of the statement would be adequately true, but the last part is patently false.

 

So, how should we consider that entire statement?  True?  Or, False?

The example you give is flawed in that there is nothing patently false in what Semi said. If there was absolutely no evidence anywhere in the world as to what the moon was actually made of, and someone said "I knew a man that lived on the moon, and he said the moon was made of green cheese", how would you consider that statement?

 

The same meterstick has to be applied to Semi's statement. Two isolated truths, surrounded by a sea of self-serving gibberish do not constitute a body of truth. What Semi truly "understands" is that the situation provides her a golden opportunity to strew confusion and doubt among her enemies. She does so through a skillful lie. One which contains just enough truth to be very believable.

Just enough truth to be believable, but no provable lie at all. We have no evidence that anything she said is anything other than true. Your assessment that she is lying is based solely on your subjective interpretation of Semi's character. Some Chosen are more honest than others. It could be that Semi will lie when necessary, but prefers to tell the truth because she finds blunt honesty a more effective tool. And the mere fact that what she said hurts Rand's cause is no proof at all that it is a lie - if the unvarnished truth is more harmful than any lie could have been, then why not tell the truth?

[RAND AL THOR]

The last sentence of what Semirhage said remains unproven.

 

I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt.

 

If Rand's people accepted this wholly then they may fear/desert him.

Also, Semi has no reason to tell the truth. She has reason enough to lie.

Just because a part of her speech contained truth, does NOT mean that EVERYTHING she said is true.

As the quote from MYsterious says:

she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

 

Hence she can easily lie and make it look like the truth. Rather and lying outright, she said some stuff which is true and possibly some stuff that ISN'T true and that makes her small speech all the more believable.

 

One more point- rather than hoping that Rand's people may desert him, the purpose of her speech may have been to confuse Rand himself. All that she said in the former part is known to Rand. Hence he would be obliged to think that whatever else she said after stating the truth would also be true. It would have destroyed Rand internally since he believes that he will not go mad since he cleansed the source.

 

To conclude, there is no proof as to whether that last statement is true or false but the circumstances make ME think that it was a tactical lie.

[Mr Ares]

The last sentence of what Semirhage said remains unproven.

 

I understand the descent into terminal madness can be ... abrupt.

Unproven is not the same as untrue. Everything she said that we can check is true. The only room for lies is where we cannot check.

If Rand's people accepted this wholly then they may fear/desert him.

Also, Semi has no reason to tell the truth. She has reason enough to lie.

No reason to tell the truth again goes back to subjective assessment of character. You think she would lie, I'm not convinced.

Just because a part of her speech contained truth, does NOT mean that EVERYTHING she said is true.

Just everything we can check. We have no evidence she lied, and plenty of evidence of truth. A good lie may have a grain of truth, this hasn't even been shown to have a grain of lie.

As the quote from MYsterious says:

she was possibly the best at subtle manipulations of the human mind who ever lived.

 

Hence she can easily lie and make it look like the truth.

Probably, but what does Graendal's ability to manipulate and lie have to do with what Semi said?

Rather and lying outright, she said some stuff which is true and possibly some stuff that ISN'T true and that makes her small speech all the more believable.

Possibly isn't true, possibly is. Any objective reason to believe she is lying?

 

To conclude, there is no proof as to whether that last statement is true or false but the circumstances make ME think that it was a tactical lie.

At least you phrase it as an opinion. I think we have reasonable grounds for accepting it as truth in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

[Elgee]

To conclude, there is no proof as to whether that last statement is true or false but the circumstances make ME think that it was a tactical lie.

 

At least you phrase it as an opinion. I think we have reasonable grounds for accepting it as truth in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

 

If there is no evidence either way, then there is no reasonable grounds for either accepting or rejecting it as the truth, only each person's personal opinions on the matter. One cannot say that one person's personal opinion has more value than another's, in such a case.

[RAND AL THOR]

I guess the only thing left then is to have a poll. ;)

[Mr Ares]

I guess the only thing left then is to have a poll. ;)

Or a fight!

[Bob T Dwarf]

The important thing is that there is too much in Semi's statement that is unknown.

 

To blandly accept everything any Forsaken says as gospel is foolish.  To blankly reject everything any Forsaken says is equally foolish.

 

The most intelligent course, when dealing with Forsaken, is to parse carefully, think skeptically, and seek independent confirmation for all things.

 

Without that confirmation, all any of us is doing is attempting to sell our own private bias.

[Luckers]

The important thing is that there is too much in Semi's statement that is unknown.

 

But is that true? Her statements are thus.

 

1. Rand heard a real voice. True.

2. Graendal could explain it better. True.

3. The fact that it is a real voice does not mean it isn't dangerous to Rands mind. True.

4. The decent to madness can be fast. Unknown.

 

Of all that she says only the last idea is something we can't independently verify, and even that we have seperate corroborating evidence--the degree to which LTT is interfering with Rand's ability to function is increasing.

 

Furthermore Semirhage had no reason to utter the last were it not true. Even were her intention to cause dissent, simply revealing the truth achieved that. She even utters things that have nothing to do with convincing them--they don't know Graendal or see why invoking her name lends a degree of psychological authority. The whole method of the statement is annecdotal, she is revealing things she knows in the method she learnt them, which is why she references Graendal.

 

People have been waiting for Rand to go mad since he appeared. She knew this. Trying to convince them he would does not achieve anything. The cool revelation of fact on the other hand proves she's not under their control, and to some degree makes her more powerful than Rand in their eyes. Both serve a purpose to her as a prisoner.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The real implication of her statement is:

 

When the voice a person hears is real, the descent into terminal madness is inevitable.  That is unknown and unprovable.

 

Everything else she says there is just window-dressing.

[Luckers]

You mean 'the bob's interpretation of her comments is'...

 

She states as i said--Rand hears a real voice, that real voice is dangerous to his mental state, and it can cause a sudden decent into madness. All of which are verifiable to a degree, and none of which suggest she was saying it was inevitable.

[RAND AL THOR]

In my view:

 

Semirhage's comments are more important to Rand than to the others. She revealed several things that Rand knows are true. Him hearing LTT and all that is known to him and to few others (Cad i think also knows).

 

Currently Rand does not believe that he will go insane. He assumes that he is safe from insanity because he cleansed the Source.

 

How would that last part of Semi's talk affect him? If he believed it to be true, then it would most certainly upset him to a large degree since there would no longer be any guarantee that he will stay sane till TG.

 

IF Semi had lied there (I'm talking about the last sentence) and IF Rand believed her, it would damage him physiologically.

That could be an intent in lying.

THIS DOES NOT RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT IT IS TRUE. I am merely providing a reason for WHY Semi would want to create such a lie.

 

By stating several things initially which Rand knows are true, and then stating something which Rand doesn;t know about and which could affect him negatively, she is playing a wonderful game.

 

My stance remains unchanged: I think it is a lie. That's my view, of course.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I think we must agree to disagree on this one. Nobody is going to be convinced they were wrong, myself included (call me stubborn if you want)