Cadsuane

[Cabriana]

As far as Moiraine warning about Aes Sedai, the only person she's certain isn't black is Siuan, and vice versa. She has a deeply rooted mistrust of all Aes Sedai (with good reason). However, I don't see how it would occur to her to even think of warning Rand about Caddy. Seeing, as she thought she was dead, she would have been more concerned about preparing him for things that she considered likely.

 

To say, 'Rand, I know this is completely off the wall, and most likely will NEVER happen, but I want to warn you about this woman that is dead. There's an extrememly slim chance that she's alive and she's a monster to deal with. Keep an eye out for her just in case. OK, so while you're looking out for her, here's some other things you need to know.'

 

It really doesn't gel for me.

 

As far as Cadsuane is concerned, she is a force of nature. Sometimes I envision a tornado coming through and she causes the same amount of collateral damage (metaphorically speaking). If she never had those ter'angreal or if she had the ability to channel, she would still be a force of nature, along the lines of Sorilea.

 

Something that occured to me during my last read through earlier this year, could Cadsuane have been freed from the 3 oaths? I know that she thinks Ny needs to take the oaths in order to be properly raised, but as someone else mentioned, she expects others to follow the rules that she breaks. 

[Luckers]

She has the agelessness. She's bound by oaths, and not black.

[aevogt]

RJ specifically stated the both Verin and Cadsuane held the Oath Rod.

 

Which when you think about it, isn't the same as saying they are bound by the Three Oaths.

 

Cadsuane, being at or near the top of the WT heirarchy, could very easily snagged the oath rod in one of her infrequent visits to the Tower and simply changed her oaths.  We've seen from the sub plot about The Five that, for a Sitter in any event, (which Cadsuane once almost was) it's as simple as snagging the oath Rod and finding an empty romm.

 

"Under the light and by my hope of rebirth and salvation I vow..."

 

"To locate the Dragon Reborn once he has declared himself"

"Assist him in any way necessary to win Tarmon Gaidon, including but not limited to teaching him some manners"

 

She obviously kept the oath about lying, for all the good it did.

 

 

 

 

[Luckers]

That seems... elaborate. Why would she feel it nessasary? She did not know that the oath rod causes the Agelessness, and through Nyanaeve she shows that she clearly values the oaths. She is also unflinchingly honest--more than any other Aes Sedai shown in the books--and shows no real desire to create weapons or kill people.

 

Aside from which, however respected she may be, she was never a Sitter. Easy access to the oath rod is availliable only to the Sitters--a matter of getting through wards, and through Liandrin and the others shown to be something that is neither easy, nor done without it being noticed.

[aevogt]

Unflinchingly honest?  Gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on that one.

 

"I have a nose"  she says when talking about her ability to find men who can channel.

 

Absolute truth, in that her stern countenance is in fact adorned with a nose, while at the same time, complete Aes Sedai bullshit since we know that her ability to find men who can channel comes from one of her ter'angreal ornaments.

 

Don't get me wrong, that old hag is one of my favorites in the series.

 

But you're right, it wouldn't have been necessary or made a lot of sense at the time. 

 

It just sounded to me like RJ, with his Oath Rod statement,  was bandying words and hiding something, which isn't too far fetched base don how he writes, and I'm trying to make it into something that may not be there.  But I still think there's something there.

 

Certainly won't be the first time for that.

[Luckers]

I was accounting her honesty more in the way she deals with people. She beyond any other character responds to others as who they are, not what their title is. Idle comments aside, she is by far the most honest character in the series when it comes to the way she deals with others. What she does is not always pleasent, but its unflinchingly sincere. She doesn't posture, she doesn't wrap herself in titles--she is, and she deals with others as they are. And i personally reguard that form of honesty as the truest and most important.

 

And also the most lacking in the majority of Aes Sedai.

 

 

[Elgee]

I think what she said is: "I SEEM to have a nose" ...?

[Ordjoe]

Cadsuane has used her trinkets to crush people, when she used the wells to get Rand out of the Far Madding.  Her influence wasn't enough to persuade the ruler on its own, so she fell back on her trinkets to do so.  Would she have had another plan that would have worked without the trinkets?  Probably.  But the fact remains that she used the trinkets to achieve a purpose.

 

As far as whether she was planned, why couldn't RJ just have wanted us to have the same shock that Rand was experiencing by this out-of-the-blue domineering character?  It may sound like bad writing, but if on purpose it could just be good writing.

 

And since someone mentioned that RJ had said he planned her all along... Is there any record of RJ lying to someone about the series?  So what basis do we have not to believe him?  What does he have to be ashamed of that he would risk alienating such a huge fan base by lying about something so trivial?

[Vemynal]

why does anyone care if he just decided to drop her into the series?

 

I wouldnt care if he even had lied about that, it just wouldnt be the same without Cads, shes like my one redeeming hope that the aes sedai arnt all idiots

[Mysterious]

I think we are all missing the point about Cadsuane.

 

We're questioning if: her character was spun out of thin air in the latter books (pretty much irrelevent), how much of a badass she is compared to others, her freaky ter'angreal and her "unusual" attitude towards everybody else.

 

Some of these questions do not really matter. RJ put her there. Deal with it. ;)

 

The questions we should be asking is:

 

HOW DID SHE BECOME SUCH A BADASS?

 

HOW DID SHE GET THOSE FREAKY TER'ANGREAL?

 

A quote from Encyclopedia-WoT:

 

Shortly after achieving the shawl, Cadsuane has a humbling experience with Norla in the Black Hills. She earns her hair ornaments. (WH,Ch34, CoT,Ch23)

 

Norla: An aged woman who lived in the Black Hills. She was a wilder.

 

Humbling experience: She was abducted and held captive. During her captivity she earned those freaky ter'angreal!

 

DURING HER CAPTIVITY SHE EARNED THOSE FREAKY TER'ANGREAL!

 

Now we're heading into some weird stuff...

 

Biggest question: WHO AND WHAT WAS NORLA?

 

To answer that question we have to look at Caddy:

 

• Caddy holds most Aes Sedai and their mannerisms and traditions is contempt
  
• Caddy was broken and reforged anew e.g. POV: "She hasn't learned that what must be endured, can be endured".
  

 

Caddy had her entire worldview shattered. Whatever Norla did to her, it undid the training of the WT and stripped her of all of her pretensions.

 

Caddy was young, powerful, newly raised to the shawl and her own opinion of herself at that time: full of herself. 8)

 

Now back to the question...

 

We now look at Norla:

 

• Has enough power, skill and experience in the OP to abduct, make captive and obedient the most powerful WT Aes Sedai in 1000 years.
  
• She is the original owner of those freaky ter'angreal.

 

 

Now with all this information we're supposed to accept that she was some sort of freak wilder? :P

 

Not a chance. ;D

 

Norla herself had to be taught by someone before her.

 

Her skill and training in the OP and those ter'angreal would have given any of the Forsaken a run for their money and has completely trumped the training of the foremost channeler organisation in existence since the Breaking.

 

I believe Norla was one of the last remnants of from the True Aes Sedai.

 

She isn't one of the original Aes Sedai. She's not that old. But by my estimates, she would have been 5^th or 6^th generation from the original Aes Sedai. It has been 3000 years since the Breaking and the average age at death for non-bound Aes Sedai is 500-600 years.

 

I would also point out that it wasn't likely that Norla would have a massive repertoir of weaves from the AoL, just those needed to survive the Breaking and hunting down male channelers.

 

Because of the ter'angreal and Caddy's skill at capturing, gentling and the unusual aptitude of reintegrating male channelers into society (It's noted that those gentled by Caddy live a more longer and more productive lives), that this would support my previous statement.

 

The original Aes Sedai, and those later trained by them, would have inherently known the danger to society if all the male channelers were culled because of the genetic component in the OP.

 

Now we do not have to accept that Norla was some sort long lost remnant from the female Aes Sedai during the Breaking, but I have to say: It fits nicely. :P

 

She could be some sort freak... but unlikely.

 

Now with all this is it really a suprise that Caddy is considered as some sort of Legend? Even LT is wary of her and he considers all of the "so-called" Aes Sedai as a bunch of savage barbarians.

 

Just something to chew over.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[benr]

I have repeatedly said that it doesn't bother me one bit if Cad was a late addition; she is a brilliant plot device, a compelling character, and I would like to see something of what she had done as a younger AS (for instance, when she earned her "ornaments").  I am unfamiliar with RJ's addressing this issue; if so, does anyone have that info?  Again, it certainly wouldn't alienate me if she were a late addition; and if he has flat out said she wasn't, I'll be the first to admit I was dead wrong (which, of course, wouldn't be the first - or last - time).

[Bob T Dwarf]

Nice theory, Mysterious.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt we'll ever learn enough of Cadsuane's back-story to confirm or deny any of it.  I doubt that Jordan's notes went any farther than what you already laid out - except possibly  for - "She is going to teach you something, you and the Asha'man. All the Asha'man, I mean. It's something you have to learn, but I don't know what it is, except that none of you will like learning it from her. You aren't going to like it at all."

 

Whatever that "something" is it might be something she learned from Norla.  Probably is, there's been enough obscure reference to her time in the Black Hills.

 

Whatever it is, it better be pretty spectacular and absolutely vital to winning TG.  Nothing less will justify her corrosively horrid presence.

 

I actually want her to die even more than I want Faile to die.

[RAND AL THOR]

You've put a lot of effort into that Mysterious. Nice work there.  ;)

 

I agree with Bob that we likely won't see much about Caddy's past anyway. But a note: Why didn't the WT try to seize the ter'angreal that Caddy has? Did she ever return to the Tower after aquiring them? I think she did. Surely they would have demanded them, if they knew.

 

I like Cadsuane. Of course if she were anywhere near me I would run screaming immediately but I like her role in the books. How Rand continually fails to impress her is amusing-especially her splendid entrance to the story and also the part where Rand tries to frighten her by barging in with Asha'man.

 

What is this complaint here about her attitude? She has seen as much of life is possible by anyone and seen many men channeling. So very little frightens her. She also knows that she cannot show even the vaguest weakness in front of anyone to maintain her appearance of practically Supreme Overlady and she does it very well indeed.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes, she does.

 

But the point is she's just really another Aes Sedai know-it-all dolt.

 

She insists on being the final arbiter in all things and she doesn't actually know jack.  Especially about fielding armies and winning wars.

 

She's the Supreme Bully.  She doesn't lead, she bosses.  Very big and important difference.

 

Worse, she expects others to read her mind.

[Elgee]

Excuse me, but what do you base your assumptions on that Cadsuane has no knowledge about fielding armies and winning wars? I'll bet she has tad sight more than Rand!

[Bob T Dwarf]

She's certainly been in a dustup or three in her time, but take Taim as an example.

 

Here he is with his ragtag army, fighting no less than Davram Bashere and elite Saldaean troops - with the almighty assistance of no less than Cadsuane Melaihdrin - and Taim had them beat - until the great-Jumbotron-in-the-sky lit up with the semi-semi-semi-semi-semi-final match from Falme.

 

That doesn't say a lot about her military expertise.

[Elgee]

Cadsuane wasn't with the army. She captured either Logain or Taim (I can't remember which one) on her own, then left whichever one it was in the hands of others.

[Majsju]

Cadsuane is not exactly attempting to function as as a military commander, so whether or not she has any expertise in that area is quite irrelevant.

 

Though considering that she organised the defences during the cleansing, making it possible for Rand to not only succeed, but to survive, kinda hints at her having picked up a thing or two...

 

Attempting to use Bashere vs taim to illustrate her knowledge is quite laughable, since we never saw what actually happened.

[Bob T Dwarf]

As usual, you pooh-pooh anything that doesn't fit your almighty preconceptions.

 

Fact is, Taim did have them beat.  He throws that in Bashere's teeth when they meet.  Bashere isn't happy about being confronted with it but he can't dispute Taim's truth. Cadusane was there and part of Bashere's effort.  An effort that was failing until the Wheel intervened.

 

Yeah, that whole Cleansing thing was a real effort.  She split them into fire teams and had them stand at points that commanded the best fields-of-fire.  Then she stood around with her thumb where it shouldn't be.  Other than easing Nynaeve's fatigue at one point, she did nothing.

[Majsju]

I pooh-pooh anything that at best is a mix of vague assumptions and wild guesses. The fact is, you do not have a clue what Cadsuanes role was during the fight against Taim. Thus, attempting to use that incident is laughable, and irrelevant.

 

And if you think Cadsuane did not do anything during the cleansing, you must have skipped a few pages.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'll let Jordan answer that.

By the by, Rand and his companions very likely would have been killed or captured if the Forsaken were not who they are, if they had been willing to form links and coordinate their attacks. But they suffer from a combination of arrogance toward the "ignorant peasants"of the current Age and distrust of one another. Forming a link is all very well, but who leads? Which of them would be willing to give up control over their own ability and put it completely under the control of another of them? Who are you willing to let get behind your back in a fight? Moghedien? Semirhage? I didn't think so.

 

So, whatever you think Cadsuane did during the Cleansing, Jordan says it wouldn't have been adequate against any but the overly paranoid Forsaken they faced.

[Majsju]

And if she had done nothing, the forsaken would not have needed to work together, any of them could just have blasted Rand with a lightning bolt (which they tried, fortunatly Someone held a shield saving Rands butt. But perhaps that was his ta'veren at work... ;D)

[Elgee]

CoS, chapter 19:

 

"You have seen Logain and Taim both?" a staring Annoura said. ....

"I do have ears to catch rumors, too, Annoura," Cadsuane said acerbically. "Though I could wish I didn't, for what I hear of that pair.  All my work thrown away to be done over. Others' as well, but I did my share. ...

 

...

 

"It was Logain, practically on my doorstep, that lured me away from my roses. .....

It was a nice few months, chasing down Logain, but once he was taken, escorting him to Tar Valon appealed as much as the roses. I wandered a bit, to see what I could find, perhaps a new Warder, though it's a bit late for that in any fairness to the man, I suppose. Then I heard of Taim, and I was off to Saldea as fast as I could ride. There's nothing for a bit of excitement like a man who can channel."

 

As usual, you pooh-pooh anything that doesn't fit your almighty preconceptions.

 

Fact is, Taim did have them beat.  He throws that in Bashere's teeth when they meet.  Bashere isn't happy about being confronted with it but he can't dispute Taim's truth. Cadusane was there and part of Bashere's effort.  An effort that was failing until the Wheel intervened.

 

Yeah, that whole Cleansing thing was a real effort.  She split them into fire teams and had them stand at points that commanded the best fields-of-fire.  Then she stood around with her thumb where it shouldn't be.  Other than easing Nynaeve's fatigue at one point, she did nothing.

 

Could you point me towards some other section of WoT where Cadsuane's involvement with Taim is mentioned?

[Bob T Dwarf]

From encyclopaedia-wot:

Cadsuane leaves her home in Ghealdan to help pursue and capture Logain. She then heads north to Saldaea and helps capture Mazrim Taim. (ACoS,Ch19, KoD,Ch18)

[Elgee]

Yes. I've already quoted that - and more.