Crazy Verin/Mat Idea - Theory

[The Lost One]

I am doing a re-read again and I am on The Dragon Reborn.  Something caught my attention.

 

At one point in the earlier books Verin says something to the effect"  "As my father used to say, it's time to roll the dice."

 

This is all pre Rhuidean...

 

At one point Mat recalls being some general or some such in a battle and says "its time to roll the dice".

 

I know it seems to be a common saying and such, but is it possible that one of Mat's past lives...or whatever you call it...past selfs..past souls......is Verin's father or some other relation to Verin.

 

As am I writing this, it sounds even more crazy then it did in my head, but there seems to be some sort of tie between Verin and Mat and this is the only thing I could think of.  Verin seems to identify with Mat's ways and such.  I was just trying to come up with some connection.

 

I have heard the time travel theory and such with Verin, but I would like to hear thoughts and ideas that do not have anything to do with time travel. 

 

Let me know what you think.  Remember, this is all pre-Rhuidean, so Mat does not have any installed memories at this point. 

 

 

 

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Who can say for sure?  Myself, I think it is possible, but unlikley.  The reason I feel this is, Mat is more than likley tied to the wheel like Rand, he gets spun out when the wheel has need, Now Jordan had said even people tied to the wheel get spun out for mundane lives, so maybe he was Verins da.

 

Tuon's father was also a gambeler!!

 

Now something to think on, Verin I think knows more of the propheciecs than any other person, with the exception of maybe Moridan/Ishmael.  I have always thought Verin had read some part of the prophecy that named Mat as the gambler,  we all know that Mat and Perrin are in the prophcies, but not sure how often.

 

But your theroy is as good as any!!

[dyring]

Its a nice theory, but (there is always a boring but it seems:p)

 

Unless I remember wrong Mat at one time thinks to himself that he has no added memories after the war of 100 years(I assume this is because how to use the tower of ghenji was forgotten? just a guess thou), Wich would mean Verin would need to be over a millenia old, and I doubt she´s much past 200.

 

Still, Its a nice find. Hadent noticed that tbh, and its pretty much the sort of ties RJ have put in before, so maybe there is something. Hardly that way thou.

 

(and if my memory on the age of mat´s memory is faulty, I´m sure I can trust that someone will bring it up, can´t recall in wich book i read it :))

[The Lost One]

Thanks for the comments, they help me think it through a bit more....this was not one of his added memories and I was not sure on the time line for Verin, so I was thinking it could be her father, grandfather, uncle or some other.  If you guys do a re-read look for it, it happened in the first 2 books and the beginning of the 3rd - I am pretty sure.  And notice the way Verin pays attention to things and reacts....it just seems there is some kind of connection.   

[Guest cw]

I don't really have anything to say other than that, as soon as I saw the subject line, I knew you were going to mention Verin's dice quote from her father.  I think it is The Dragon Reborn that she makes it but not entirely sure.  Personally, even with it being virtually word for word with what Mat says, I just think it is coincidence.  There are a lot of people that like to gamble and take chances.

[Aemon raHal]

Yeah, I'm on a re-re-read and its in The Great Hunt when Verin wants Rand to use the Portal Stone to bring them to Toman Head.

 

Just before she says that, she said something to Rand about gambling/guessing which symbol to pick - to which he replied somthing like "Mat's the gambler!"

 

It all struck me as very strange...

 

[aussie_ashaman123]

 

Tuon's father was also a gambeler!!

 

Tuon said her father called himself a gambler, and that he died of a bad bet. Lets face it, all High Blood and Imperial Family members are gamblers, they have to be, the ones who arent are usually the ones who lose their power and often their lives.

 

Verins father cannot be one of those from Mats memories, his last memory is over a thousand years ago. Verin da, could be a historian, which is why verin chose the brown ajah.

 

Im still not sure Verin's father would say something like that, Verin was born in Far Madding, a city renown for probably the mild mannered men in Randland

[Tyrell]

Really? I know Verin is exiled from Far Madding, but I didn't know that she was a native.

[The Lost One]

Verins father cannot be one of those from Mats memories, his last memory is over a thousand years ago. Verin da, could be a historian, which is why verin chose the brown ajah.

 

Again, I am not saying Verin's father was from one of Mat's memories.  This ALL happens before Mat gets any memories.  I thought one of Verin's relatives might me one of Mat's past lives or some other kind of connection.  I just thought Mat and Verin might be connected in some way. 

[drsarav]

It seems there are lots of gamblers in WOT.  In the opening of TDR, even Pedron Niall muses to himself about "rolling the dice", as he positions the Whitecloaks to take advantage of Rand's proclamation. 

 

However, I too thought it was relevant somehow that Verin DIDN'T simply tell Rand to roll the dice....Instead she said, "As my father would have said, it's time to roll the dice"...she seemed to be insinuating that her father was well known for taking risks and winning high stakes bets. 

 

I think the estimates of Verin's age are too low.  Remember that female channelers who have never sworn on the Oath Rod live much longer than Aes Sedai.  Could Verin have come to the tower as a novice only after living years --centuries??-- as a "wilder"?  In that scenario her da could indeed have been a famed general & gambler.

 

 

[Rellawing]

Also you're not taking into consideration the fact that just because Mat doesn't have memories from any point after the War of 100 Years, it doesn't mean that he hadn't had any other lives.  There's evidence suggesting that the memories that were installed in him weren't all his past life memories... some of them could have been great generals that were not him.  Being as those bound to the Wheel are reborn for mundane lives more often than momentous ones, I'd say it's pretty even odds that this theory could be valid.  He just doesn't have the unnecessary memories of a gambler, even if he might have inclinations cultivated by the lives of many before him that were gamblers.

[Sabio]

I doubt a soul get's spun out that fast.  The memories if I am not mistaken are not necessarily lives he has led but also people who visited the fox and snakes.

[solarz]

The real question is, why does it matter?

 

This is one of those unprovable hypotheses. Mat could have been anyone in his past lives. He could have been Lan's father, or Moiraine's uncle's second cousin. Lots of people say "it's time to roll the dice".

[Orderofolde]

Mat actually has blood ties to memories of old Manatheren.  We see this in his first battle cries early on, and in TDR Mat is linked to his historical old self through tearing away the dagger's influence when healed.  He is Aemon reborn and remembers leading the Heart Guard into battle against the Trollocs during Manatheren's fall though the memories fade quite a bit.  This is when he receives the infusion of the Old Tongue he later uses inside the first of the Ter'angreal doorways. 

[szilard]

2 hours ago, solarz said:

The real question is, why does it matter?

 

The time travel theory was extremely popular.

[jack of shadows]

mat memories from finnland(in rhuidean) are definitely not from

his past lives,robert jordan said they were from random adventurers/warriors.

[Sabio]

That's the important thing with Mat, you saw in the first few books it was the old blood coming out (the speaking old tongue) and then the finns filling his head with memories from other people.

[Orderofolde]

Yes, after Finnland, poor Mat remembers dying hundreds of times from all the other men's memories.

[Sabio]

I think in a Mat POV it even said it would be impossible for him to live that many lives.  From the sounds of it, the spinning out isn't fast.  Briggette is a hero but gets spun out like everyone else, and she has made it seem like there is a lot of down time between lives,  I doubt there is a set time but I also doubt if you die you are getting spun back out in a few months or a year.  

 

An example would be If that was really Kari Ishy had in book 1, that means she has been dead for sixteen years or so.

[jack of shadows]

being overly pedantic here lol,rand was 5 years old when kari al'thor died,

when rand saw her again he was 19 years old,so,14 years later.

[Orderofolde]

On 2/23/2008 at 12:36 PM, drsarav said:

It seems there are lots of gamblers in WOT.  In the opening of TDR, even Pedron Niall muses to himself about "rolling the dice", as he positions the Whitecloaks to take advantage of Rand's proclamation. 

 

However, I too thought it was relevant somehow that Verin DIDN'T simply tell Rand to roll the dice....Instead she said, "As my father would have said, it's time to roll the dice"...she seemed to be insinuating that her father was well known for taking risks and winning high stakes bets. 

 

I think the estimates of Verin's age are too low.  Remember that female channelers who have never sworn on the Oath Rod live much longer than Aes Sedai.  Could Verin have come to the tower as a novice only after living years --centuries??-- as a "wilder"?  In that scenario her da could indeed have been a famed general & gambler.

 

 

I would suggest that her father was Madoc Comadrin, the famous General but he died 600 years BEFORE Hawkwing rose to power.  I doubt that Verin is thousands of years old.  Mat remembers being the man and meeting the man in other men's memories.  I think that the extent of life for channelers, the most powerful, who have not sworn on a binder is around 1000 years.

[jack of shadows]

@orderofolde,

"..the most powerful,who have not sworn on a binder is around 1000 years."

 

yes.kesiera sedai(used to be active in the discussion board until a year ago),

wrote a formula regarding channeler's potential life span based on their

one power strengh,according to her,rand,moridin and lanfear's potential

life span is approximately 900 years(15%longer life span for female channelers).

[Guest Bigpoppahig]

I am pretty sure that from Mat's POV he said that the memories were from men who had gone to the Tower of Ghenjei. That the Aelfinn/Eelfinn had taken them somehow

[Orderofolde]

Yes, the memories he received to fill the holes left in his head by the Dagger's corruption were harvested by the Finns who use their emotions and experience to feed from, or like drugs from the fits we see of them feeding while Mat is in Finnland.  But he also had the Blood of Manetheren that gave him a few words of the old Tongue, and during his being healed in Tar Valon, he gains memories of his past life as Eamon, King of Manetheran leading the final stand against the Trollocs at the river, commanding the Heart Guard.