Min DOES screw up

[hurryupnwait]

I have been waiting to see if someone else starts this topic so I can comment.  Does anyone else feel like Min cost Rand his hand and maybe his vision?  She like all the other idiot women in this story are affronted by the men around them wanting to protect them and keep them safe.  What part of "Min, I love you more than life so please don't go to this possibly dangerous meeting.  If you go I will be distracted an worried for your safety, and I really need to focus on this meeting," is so awful.  So he goes to this meeting gets sick trying to channel to protect himself, then gets a fireball hurled his way.  He would simply dodge but Min is behind him so he takes the fireball.

 

Afterwards he stoically accepts the loss of his hand and Min is upset that he is not disturbed more by it.  If anything she should be relieved that her costing him his hand did not infuriate Rand.  Its logic me powerful channeler surrounded by Asha'man and Aes Sedai who want me to live to fulfill my life's work.  You chick that can read auras and throw knives.  Stay out of harm's way and let me do what I do.

 

Just wanted everyone else's thoughts on the matter.

[dlan4327]

Personally, I've always blamed that one on Lews Therin myself. Although when I say blame I use the term loosely. For all we known, despite Rand being the actual owner of the body, Lews Therin seems to think that Rand is a figment of his imagination and he's in control of the body. 

[Majsju]

Since Rand still can't get it into his thick woolhead that Min is more than capable of looking after herself, he pretty much deserves getting bits of his body blown off. Min is ahrdly made of porcelain, while Rand was crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself, Min managed to put a knife in Semirhage.

 

Rands behaviour is insulting to Min, and if there's one thing idiotic about her, it is tolerating Rands behaviour. No one could blame her if she punched him in the face and walked off to find a real man.

[BKVMC]

The way  min sticks to rand  i  believe that she has  either had a viewing she hasnt  revealed  about him yet  OR  she is holding  onto some info  obtained from  HF  books.  i lean  to the  first option  but i could just be the simple fact  that  she  has put  everything she is a person  into  loving Rand, of the  3  who love rand she is imo the  one who is TOTALLY  involved in  rand  Elayne  wont betray  Andor for rand Avienda  same  with the aiel  but  min  abandoned everything to be  there for him and he is her only  priority.

[Dhaos]

Since Rand still can't get it into his thick woolhead that Min is more than capable of looking after herself, he pretty much deserves getting bits of his body blown off. Min is ahrdly made of porcelain, while Rand was crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself, Min managed to put a knife in Semirhage.

 

Rands behaviour is insulting to Min, and if there's one thing idiotic about her, it is tolerating Rands behaviour. No one could blame her if she punched him in the face and walked off to find a real man.

 

You've got to remember that Min can't Channel.  She's bringing knives to a gunfight, except in this case, the bullets are fired with your mind.  Considering that Rand can't even reliably defend himself at this point, and that he's such a chivalrous little Two Rivers bugger, I can't blame him.

 

On the other hand, Rand definitely has a complex when it comes to women.  He's afraid of losing Min, because it would only feed his whole list-of-blame thing.  Is he stupidly protective and stubborn?  Absolutely, and we're reminded constantly that his fixation on loss is a huge liability in the run-up to Tarmon Gaidon.

 

But was Min foolish for insisting on coming?  Just as much.  More so, even.  Regardless of her intentions or her own ability, she -has- to know that in a combat situation, Rand is going to be caught up in defending her.  Worse yet, she insisted on walking into what was sure to be a Power-based combat situation, if it were in fact a trap.  She can't defend herself from the Power; she doesn't have Mat's or Cadsuane's ter'angreal.  By being there, she was placing a burden on all of the channellers, especially Rand.  She never even considered this, so it really was immature of her to insist on going.

 

All that being said, I love Min.  I think her relationship with Rand is the most realistic and makes the strongest leg of the love-quadrangle.  But this wasn't one of her best moments.

 

The way  min sticks to rand  i  believe that she has  either had a viewing she hasnt  revealed  about him yet  OR  she is holding  onto some info  obtained from  HF  books.

 

That's an interesting idea.  But if it's true, she should really be telling him!  Rand needs all the help he can get...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since Rand still can't get it into his thick woolhead that Min is more than capable of looking after herself, he pretty much deserves getting bits of his body blown off.  Min is ahrdly made of porcelain, while Rand was crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself, Min managed to put a knife in Semirhage.

 

... -agog- ...

 

Do you really believe that?  Rand deserved to lose his hand because he wants to protect Min?  I guess you think he should have hit the deck and let that fireball go by then ... love to see Min get a knife into Semirhage then.

 

And, which part of his POV was the "feeling sorry for himself" part?  I missed that.

 

The fact is, in this case, Rand correctly assessed the danger.  Min was a liability, and there will be situations in which she is again.  I like Min, and she has her head on straighter than most of the characters, but she does screw up occasionally, like all humans.

[Majsju]

Do you really believe that?  Rand deserved to lose his hand because he wants to protect Min?  I guess you think he should have hit the deck and let that fireball go by then ... love to see Min get a knife into Semirhage then.

 

We never saw exactly what happened, but I would be very surprised if Min had not moved out of the way when Rand tried to play catch with a fireball.

 

Though, if Rand had not been so full of "fragile little women can't take care of themselves", he would not have insisted on her riding behind him, so he could have jumped out of the way without worrying. And maybe Min would have gotten a viewing even before cadsuane ripped Semis disguise apart, giving Rand a few extra seconds to act.

 

The fact is, in this case, Rand correctly assessed the danger.  Min was a liability, and there will be situations in which she is again.  I like Min, and she has her head on straighter than most of the characters, but she does screw up occasionally, like all humans.

 

With her ability, Min is a valuable asset, and since she is not a channeler, she would not be a priority target. Liability? Only if you think women are so weak that they can't take care of themselves. Something Min did while Rand still thought herding sheep was the biggest challenge he would ever face.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Though, if Rand had not been so full of "fragile little women can't take care of themselves", he would not have insisted on her riding behind him, so he could have jumped out of the way without worrying

 

And if Min wasn't so full of "I have to cling to Rand's arm every second of every day", there wouldn't have been that problem either.  You're acting like Rand is the only one who is over-protective in this relationship.  ::)  She is an asset ... but not in battle, or situations in which battle is likely.

 

It is a simple fact that Min cannot protect herself from Rand's enemies.  It doesn't make her a weakling, anymore than the fact that a two year old toddler isn't a weakling for losing to me in an arm-wrestling match.  But her love for Rand and her determination to help him aren't going to stop a fireball.  Or are you seriously contending that Min could take care of herself in a fight with Semirhage?  That's ... absurd.

[Duneflayer]

as stated above Min is an asset and i can't say i blame Rand 4 leting her come he was in no position to refuse

 

In the Great Hunt, Mat: It isn't that way with us, we are in charge of our women.

 

Rand: I don't think so, has your Da ever done something your Ma really didn't want him to do?

 

there is not much in the world Rand would refuse Min

[Dhaos]

there is not much in the world Rand would refuse Min

 

Right, which is why it was immature of her to insist on coming.  She knew he wouldn't say know.  She also knew it was a situation in which, if there were trouble, she'd be more of a liability than an asset.

[Mat is Better]

Personally, I've always blamed that one on Lews Therin myself. Although when I say blame I use the term loosely. For all we known, despite Rand being the actual owner of the body, Lews Therin seems to think that Rand is a figment of his imagination and he's in control of the body. 

 

RJ has confirmed that Lews Therin and Rand are actually the same soul.  There is only one soul.  So actually Lews Therins manifestations are probably just memories that somehow carried over and Rand has created dual personalities in order to convince himself that he is not crazy (when Rand does crazy things or thinks violent thoughts).

[Majsju]

It is a simple fact that Min cannot protect herself from Rand's enemies.  It doesn't make her a weakling, anymore than the fact that a two year old toddler isn't a weakling for losing to me in an arm-wrestling match.  But her love for Rand and her determination to help him aren't going to stop a fireball.  Or are you seriously contending that Min could take care of herself in a fight with Semirhage?  That's ... absurd.

 

It's not quite like Min would have walked up and challenged Semi to a duel...

Many women in WOT are quite far from the pretty little housewife who waits at home to see if this is the time the guy does not return, and when he does return, she has dinner on the table and all the laundry is done. They are stronger than that, and it is not up to some guy to tell them what they can and can't do.

 

 

Funny thing is, the only times she has actually been hurt, she has been together with Rand in a place Rand thought was safe...

 

RJ has confirmed that Lews Therin and Rand are actually the same soul.  There is only one soul.  So actually Lews Therins manifestations are probably just memories that somehow carried over and Rand has created dual personalities in order to convince himself that he is not crazy (when Rand does crazy things or thinks violent thoughts).

 

It is quite a bit more than just memories. Take WH as an example, where Rand who has never been able to draw in his entire life suddenly can use LTTs skill to do it. No violent thoughts, no crazy things going on.

[Vassili]

It's not quite like Min would have walked up and challenged Semi to a duel...

 

There was going to be a fight no matter who started it. Semi came to capture Rand, and she wasn't going to leave without him. Nothing he did provoked the fight either, if thats what your implying.

 

We never saw exactly what happened, but I would be very surprised if Min had not moved out of the way when Rand tried to play catch with a fireball.

 

Though, if Rand had not been so full of "fragile little women can't take care of themselves", he would not have insisted on her riding behind him, so he could have jumped out of the way without worrying. And maybe Min would have gotten a viewing even before cadsuane ripped Semis disguise apart, giving Rand a few extra seconds to act.

 

The fact is, from what the book says (and that and what RJ said are all we can go on)we have no reason to believe she moved and rand took the fireball for nothing. Why would she ride ahead of him? He is, after all, the one the pseudo-Seanchan delegation wants to meet, not her. And since Min so rarely understands her viewing (assuming Semi would have had an aura) what are the odds that one would warn her in the few seconds it would have made a difference?

 

Bottom line, he is going into a hostile zone, where everyone is armed with the Power. Would you take your significant other into a warzone with you if (s)he was untrained and unarmed? (in this comparison I am assuming the difference between the Power and a knife is so vast, she is comparatively unarmed.) I agree he is wrong to assume those he love are powerless to defend themselves, especially those who can channel, and I don't think he has the right to send them away if they are aware of the danger of being near him. Still, you protect those you love, even if they can protect themselves better. Its part of loving someone. And,in the case of this meeting, the danger is so present, the need for her to be there so little, and the danger her presence poses to herself and others great enough that she should not have gone. Furthermore, being the strategic and political leader of their delegation, it is not just between him and her. Had he told her no (as he should have) it would have been within his right.

 

while Rand was crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself, Min managed to put a knife in Semirhage.

 

I know he is a fictional character, but would you really say that if he was a real person?

 

 

 

 

[Lews_Windu]

while Rand was crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself, Min managed to put a knife in Semirhage.

 

Wow. Rand has his hand completely incinerated and he....actually takes the time to think "Oh, it seems I no longer have my left hand. That's not good."

 

 

What a whiny bitch. Really.  ::)

[hurryupnwait]

I must say anyone of worth as a person is willing ot sacrifice for someone you love.  If my wife and I were walking along and a car comes along speeding out of control towards us, and I have two options get hit and have my wife be safe or dodge to safety with a possibility thta my wife is struck.  I step up and get hit.  That is no sleight against my wife just what I would do.  I love her and would not want to selfishly expose her to possible harm.  Min did that when she insisted on going on this expedition.

 

Like many of you said she was an unnessecary risk and burden on those capable of defending themselves.  Much has been made of her knifing Semirhage, well what good did it do? Did it affect Semi in any noticeable way?  No she just stood there and ignored it.  For all we know that knife took Semi after she was bound and shielded.  They say Min's visions are infallible, but in this case I believe it could have been avoided.  Min just had to display some trust in Rand and the Asha'man and Aes Sedai around him.

[RobertAlexWillis]

It's not quite like Min would have walked up and challenged Semi to a duel...

 

Its not quite like she would have to do that to get killed, either.  ::)

 

Funny thing is, the only times she has actually been hurt, she has been together with Rand in a place Rand thought was safe...

 

Well, she definitely would have gotten hurt this time.

 

Many women in WOT are quite far from the pretty little housewife who waits at home to see if this is the time the guy does not return, and when he does return, she has dinner on the table and all the laundry is done. They are stronger than that, and it is not up to some guy to tell them what they can and can't do.

 

I'm sorry ... where has Rand tried to order any of the girls to cook his dinner?  Or shine his boots?  Do his laundry?  He wants to keep them alive, not make them his servants.  Rand has very real enemies who are a very real danger.  And you seem to be deliberately avoiding acknowledging two things: one, Rand was not "crawling around in the dirt feeling sorry for himself", and two, Min is just as over-protective of Rand as he is of her.  She doesn't have to cling to his arm at all times, insist on accompanying him everywhere he goes.  But she does.  People in love often do somewhat irrational things for or to each other.

[Majsju]

The fact is, from what the book says (and that and what RJ said are all we can go on)we have no reason to believe she moved and rand took the fireball for nothing. Why would she ride ahead of him? He is, after all, the one the pseudo-Seanchan delegation wants to meet, not her. And since Min so rarely understands her viewing (assuming Semi would have had an aura) what are the odds that one would warn her in the few seconds it would have made a difference?

 

Lets see, Rand takes the time to, while shocked from first seeing Semi, then being bounced away from saidin, make a decision to not jump to the side, try to seize saidin and throw his hand up. Meanwhile, Min would be happily just sitting there...Riiiiight.

And since when is the only option to riding behind someone riding ahead instead? If she was to be able to use her ability, the logical position would be right next to Rand, so that she, in case she saw something actually could tell him about it without having to shout loud enough for Semi to hear.

 

Well, she definitely would have gotten hurt this time.

 

Because all evil characters are stupid and goes by the logic "if we kill the person who poses the least threat, the others will surely surrender."

 

WOT is not the kind of story where all women are dollfaced airheads, constantly needing to be kept safe or rescued. Deal with it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Lets see, Rand takes the time to, while shocked from first seeing Semi, then being bounced away from saidin, make a decision to not jump to the side, try to seize saidin and throw his hand up.

 

You do understand that the entire though process we read in the books took less than a second, right?  I mean, the fireball wasn't moving slowly.

 

If she was to be able to use her ability, the logical position would be right next to Rand, so that she, in case she saw something actually could tell him about it without having to shout loud enough for Semi to hear.

 

In which case she would have been killed, AND Rand would have been hurt.  She would have been trying to push him out of the way, and he would have been trying to push her out of the way. 

 

Because all evil characters are stupid and goes by the logic "if we kill the person who poses the least threat, the others will surely surrender."

 

No, because she insists on staying within 5 feet of the person that they ARE targeting.

 

WOT is not the kind of story where all women are dollfaced airheads, constantly needing to be kept safe or rescued. Deal with it.

 

People, male or female, can need to be kept safe without being "dollfaced airheads".  Wanting to keep someone out of situations in which that person could VERY REALISTICALLY BE KILLED FOR NO GOOD REASON is not making them into a "dollfaced airhead".  And you continue to ignore the fact that this behavior is reciprocal.  If Rand could, he'd keep Min safely out of all danger.  And if MIN could, she'd keep RAND safely out of all danger.

[Harmless Bandit]

Had they not dismounted? I can't recall. If they were on foot, and Min was directly behind Rand, there is a good chance she didn't move out of the way. Rand being head and shoulders taller than Min, he would have blocked her view, and she would not have known exactly what was going on. And as Robert pointed out, had she seen the ball of fire coming her first reaction would have been to try and push him out of harm's way, and he the same.

 

If she was to be able to use her ability, the logical position would be right next to Rand, so that she, in case she saw something actually could tell him about it without having to shout loud enough for Semi to hear.

 

While it's probable that she would have seen an aura around Semi, it's not certain that she would have immediately understood its meaning. Furthermore, trying to explain it to Rand in that moment would have taken some time, and I am not sure Semirhage would have happily waited for them to finish confering.

 

They were all aware that it was a dangerous situation they were in, a situation in which, as has been pointed out, a sword and a knife could do very little. Min was practically useless, unless she is extraordinary fast with her weapons. If you weigh the two options; her being there on the off-chance that she will see something about Semi that could prove useful, and the [added, unnecessary] responsibility her presence caused, it was foolish of her to go.

 

The bottom line is, they were both (Rand and Min) fools, but she more so than him. I can't recall whether Cadsuane didn't try to reason with them.

 

But hey, it's love, and as they say, love is a temporary moment of insanity, so I can understand them.  ;)

 

Somewhat.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK ... lets make sure we all remember something here.  No one expected Semirhage to be there.  They were supposed to be meeting with the Daughter of the Nine Moons.  So, its not totally insane for Min to be there ... she could have been useful, and probably will be, when Rand actually does meet Tuon.  But I don't believe that her potential usefulness outweighed the potential danger.

 

What I object to, primarily, is the idea that Rand is an ass for wanting to protect the woman he loves from something which she is clearly incapable of protecting herself from.  He didn't want her to go, because he knew there would be channelers there (even not knowing about Semirhage, he knew there would be damane and Asha'man).  The last time he faced the Seanchan, it was a bloody disaster, literally, in which people around him died as much as his enemies.  So it is not unreasonable for him to be concerned for her safety, because in a channeling battle, she is clearly at a massive disadvantage.  Thats not making her a "dollfaced airhead", its a simple fact.

 

Now ... despite his concerns, he let her come.  He has been allowing her to place herself in danger, despite his concerns, because he respects her as well as loves her!

 

She, on the other hand, doesn't trust him enough to let him go anywhere without her.  She is angry every time he leaves, even for a short while.  She is like the Maidens who wanted to accompany him to Shadar Logoth.  There was nothing there they could fight.  They could provide NO PROTECTION.  Yet they insisted on going, and became a liability while there.  That is precisely the case with Min.

[Paviel]

The last time he faced the Seanchan, it was a bloody disaster, literally, in which people around him died as much as his enemies.

 

Of course, that was only partly because there was channeling involved. Most of the slaughter was because Callandor had driven Rand berserk.

[aevogt]

Wasn't one of the conditions of the meeting that Rand bring a non-channeler so as to be on the same footing as the Seanchan who were handicapped by the fact that the real Toun cannot channel.  Even though that was part of the trap, it would have appeared logical from the outside.

 

Who else would even be available for Rand to take to meet that condition?  Maybe Bashere.  Let's face it, if a couple if arguing over something while in bed, the outcome is pretty much a foregone conclusion. 

 

Min has shown herself to be a very capable woman whose only real flaws are being a little bit needy, and yes overprotective.  It's hard to say Rand doesn't need someone to protect him though.   

[RobertAlexWillis]

Of course, that was only partly because there was channeling involved. Most of the slaughter was because Callandor had driven Rand berserk.

 

While Callandor certainly didn't help, that whole sequence was a meat grinder long before he drew Callandor.

[Luckers]

The one thing i can think to add is to back what Robert said. None of them went in expecting Semirhage. Taking Min into a Power battle would be stupid, but they thought they were going to meet a political delegation, in which case Min's abilities make her far more valuable than any of the others except maybe Cadsuane--and that just because of her experience. In that meeting the others served as little more than glorified bodyguards.

 

But Maj is correct too. Min is far from defenceless, and her presence comes with an ability to see things about people. She represents a valuable asset in any meeting, and just because she cannot bring the same level of force to a confrontation if it turns violent does not mean she shouldn't be there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... I'm not sure that I would characterize it as just "going to meet a political delegation".  Rand did anticipate the potential for violence, and a trap, even though he didn't anticipate that Semirhage would be the author of that trap.  And any trap and/or violence would have involved battling with the Power, as indeed came to pass.

 

Min is not defenseless in any sort of "normal" fight, but in a channeling fight, she might as well be a child running through a mine field with steel boots on.  So, it is not unreasonable for Rand to expect that she would be in danger ... danger that her particular skills would not be any defense against.  Acknowledging that fact is not diminishing Min in any way.  It is simple truth.

 

Min's viewings are rarely of things that need immediate action.  Indeed ... they are simply informational ... there is nothing Rand can do to actually alter anything she sees.  Min's abilities could be ideally employed on a second or third trip ... after a reasonable expectation of security had been established.  I doubt that Rand and Tuon will be able to resolve everything in a single meeting, much less coordinate everything that will need to be coordinated.  If he really felt he needed Min's viewing of Tuon, he could have brought her to the second meeting.

 

But Min's viewings were not the reason she wanted to come, and they were not the reason that Rand let her come.

 

Min doesn't trust Rand enough to let him go anywhere without her ... much like the Maidens in Shadar Logoth, she insists on sharing danger even when sharing that danger makes her a liability.