crescents and stars, oh my!

[frawggy]

The dangly moons and stars in cadsuanes hairs...  These are angreal, used for things like wells and detecting a mans channeling, right?

 

It seems the RJ likes to drop one sentence clues throughout this whole thing..

 

There's a meeting in The Fires of heaven..  Some of the forsaken, Graendal, Lanfear, Sammy and Ravine.  when lanfear steps out, her dark hair is done up with silver crescents and stars...

 

She ends up falling into the foxland doorframe. 

 

And then comes back disguised as cadsuane??????????????

 

[trakand_01]

I dont want to spoil anything for you, but i believe we meet lanfear again later on, but not as Cadsuane.

 

Lanfear (formerly Mierin) chose her name as it means 'Daughter of the Night', hence the crescent moon and stars. Her symbol in terms of chapter headings is the crescent moon and 3 stars, connecting either end.

 

It is curious that she and Cadsuane should possess almost identical-sounding hair-ornamentation though...

[Ahaz Flagg]

Lanfear is back as Cyndane,  Cadsuane is pretty much in Rands pocket.

[Cadsuane]

Cadsuane also has bird and fish hair ornaments in her collection. That both women have stars and crescent moons is mere coincidence.

[stoper]

...Cadsuane is pretty much in Rands pocket.

Hehe are you joking?

Because I could say Rand is pretty much in Cadsuane's pocket.

She wants to control him when she arrived at Cairhien and I could say she almost achieve it.

[Ahaz Flagg]

...Cadsuane is pretty much in Rands pocket.

Hehe are you joking?

Because I could say Rand is pretty much in Cadsuane's pocket.

She wants to control him when she arrived at Cairhien and I could say she almost achieve it.

 

Not realy, Cadsuane weather she truly believes it or not, is Dragonsworn.  While she may not have sworn an oath of fealty to Rand, she works for his benifet.  I am pretty certian most of the people in Rand Land will assume as his advisor, she is Dragonsworn.

 

She does not jump for Rand of course, but in his pocket she is.  ;) 

 

Speaking of this, Remember back when Rand said he would never trust any Aes Sedai?  how many Aes Sedai does he trust now? :)

[stoper]

Not realy, Cadsuane weather she truly believes it or not, is Dragonsworn.  While she may not have sworn an oath of fealty to Rand, she works for his benifet.  I am pretty certian most of the people in Rand Land will assume as his advisor, she is Dragonsworn.

She does not jump for Rand of course, but in his pocket she is.   ;)

I still can't agree with you. She works for her own benefit. And at this moment she's in charge.

Look it at this point - he can't say anything to her, but she tells him what to do, slap him and insult him quite often.

But after all, in AMoL we'll see who's right.

 

Speaking of this, Remember back when Rand said he would never trust any Aes Sedai?  how many Aes Sedai does he trust now? :)

Yep and that's nonsence.

Moiraine saved his life (and the life of his father and many others in Two Rivers) and he didn't trust her.

He know Nynaeve and Egwene since he's born and didn't trust them. (not to mention that he has some daubts even to Mat and Perin)

And now he share everything with Cadsuane, because Min told she'll teach him something.

I just can't see it.

[Tyrell]

Cadsuane is pretty much the only thing stopping Rand from acting like a Tyrant and a general idiot at this point.

[druidravi]

 

I still can't agree with you. She works for her own benefit. And at this moment she's in charge.

Look it at this point - he can't say anything to her, but she tells him what to do, slap him and insult him quite often.

But after all, in AMoL we'll see who's right.

 

I am looking forward to a confrontation between Cadsuane and Morraine . I too am seeing that double standard in Cadsuoune's where she pretty much slaps , hits insults him and then asks him to  behave .

[Vambram]

The Rand al`Thor I know may allow Cadsuane and others to tell him what to do, However on a very consistent basis, I read and see in the last few books that Rand al`Thor still continues to choose to do what HE wants to do, even when Cadsuane and the others advise against that decision.

As for the so-called double standard Rand has with Cadsuane and he had with Moiraine, lets try to remember that Cadsuane is not only far stronger in the one power than is Moiraine, but Cadsuane is also at least twice as old as Moiraine, with a much stronger base of allies & followers among the aes sedai than what Moiraine had.

Rand would be a foolish man, and a seen as a stupid Dragon Reborn if he was unable to withstand mere insults and/or mere words telling him to behave. Remember, my friends, Cadsuane is a friggen legend among the aes sedai, whose strength in saidar is almost unequaled by MOST of the other aes sedai. When I see Rand putting up with Cadsuane, then I see a young man whom is only 20 to 23 years old making a wise decision so as to not unnecessarily piss off old and powerful aes sedai women.

 

 

 

*edited to correct my mistake in original post*

 

 

 

[Cabriana]

Speaking of this, Remember back when Rand said he would never trust any Aes Sedai?  how many Aes Sedai does he trust now? :)

Yep and that's nonsence.

Moiraine saved his life (and the life of his father and many others in Two Rivers) and he didn't trust her.

He know Nynaeve and Egwene since he's born and didn't trust them. (not to mention that he has some daubts even to Mat and Perin)

And now he share everything with Cadsuane, because Min told she'll teach him something.

I just can't see it.

 

The problem with Moiraine is that he always felt that she was trying to manipulate him and steer in a direction that went to her own ends. Moiraine never had Rand's best interests at heart, she had the world's best interests at heart. Her one purpose was to find the DR and make sure he got to TG. And where was she going to stow him once she found him? The WT.

 

I'm not trying to be critical of Moiraine. Rand could trust her more than most people. But he was always aware that she had her own agenda. It's hard to let people like that in. It wasn't until Moiraine agreed to simply advise and not try to push or manipulate that Raand was willing to make peace with her.

 

As far as Nynaeve and Egwene are concerned, Rand does trust them to a certain degree. He had Nynaeve link with him to cleanse saidin because he knew that she wouldn't try to kill him or subvert his actions. She's with him at the KOD and he hasn't make her swear fealty. Nynaeve is in his inner circle. His very small inner circle. She's one of the few people on the planet who knows where he is and hasn't sworn an oath to him. I think that shows a great amount of trust.

 

Then there's Egwene. Even before she's raised as Amyrilin, she was trying to push him. When they were with the Aiel and he was arguing with Moiraine, she dressed him down for it. Egwene has already shown herself to be a product of the Tower. She kept herself apart from him. When did she ever say, 'Hey, lets sit down and talk! We may be going seperate ways but we're still friends and shouldn't let this crap get in the way.' And then she was raised Amyrilin and now she defintiely has her own agenda.

 

I'm not saying that Egwene isn't trust worthy but Rand defintely has good reasons for not being all buddy buddy with her. Egwene is a very honorable person but she's shown time and again that she thinks that she should be able to dictate to Rand and he just falls in line. That, coupled with Egwene leading the rebel Aes Sedai would cause ME to be wary.

[PrinceOfRavens]

i believe siuan was a novice with moirane, and that siuan had worn the stole for 10 years, after having worn the shawl for 10 years(correct me if im wrong.) This makes her say, 50-60 years old at most, as they passed novice and accepted quickly for the standard. This makes moirane somewhere around the same age. We have Read Cadsuane is 300 years or older wich doesnt makes her twice as old, but more or less 5-6 or very maybe even 7 times older, though that is unlikely. I dont believe Cadsuane was that much stronger in the power. Moirane ans Siuan were noted for their strenghts before the recent ''happenings''.

 

It's my opinion that with the combination of Min's viewing and Cadsuane's giant willpower it makes her the right person at the right moment to keep Rand a little back so he doesnt make wrong decisions.

 

Just my 2 cents

[RobertAlexWillis]

Siuan is either 42 or 45 (there is some question ... two different dates are given for her ascension to the Amyrlin Seat see this FAQ http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=85), and Moiraine is 44.

 

Cadsuane is not quite 300 years old ... so she's well over 6 times Moiraine's age ... not that it really matters in this context.

 

Cadsuane came to Rand having already learned the lesson that Moiraine learned while dealing with Rand; she wants to actually help him, not make him dance to her tune.  The fact that he what he actually needs is someone to pull him up short occasionally makes it look like she's forcing him to her own tune ... but she's doing everything in her power to help him succeed in his plans ... and not to dictate those plans to him.  She actually shows more faith in him than anyone since Moiraine.

 

Seriously ... what plans has Cadsuane tried to force Rand to abandon?  None.  Which has she helped him succeed in?  Every single one she has been present for.  The Seanchan treaty is the perfect example.

 

I have a feeling that if Moiraine and Cadsuane meet again there won't be any fireworks, at least not between them.

[stoper]

Cadsuane is pretty much the only thing stopping Rand from acting like a Tyrant and a general idiot at this point.

To be honest I must say that I prefer the main chracter in the book to be crazy tyrant, but with his own will, dignity and self-repect. Instead of some puppet.

 

As for the so-called double standard Rand has with Cadsuane and he had with Moiraine, lets try to remember that Cadsuane is not only far stronger in the one power than is Moiraine, but Cadsuane is also at least twice as old as Moiraine, with a much stronger base of allies & followers among the aes sedai than what Moiraine had.

Rand would be a foolish man, and a seen as a stupid Dragon Reborn if he was unable to withstand mere insults and/or mere words telling him to behave. Remember, my friends, Cadsuane is a friggen legend among the aes sedai, whose strength in saidar is almost unequaled by MOST of the other aes sedai...

If you want I may check my books, but I'm pretty sure that Cadsuane is far more weaker in the one power than you think.

Can you show me some quotes that may sopport your statement?

And anyway, what her strength and age has to do with Rand's trust?

 

Cadsuane came to Rand having already learned the lesson that Moiraine learned while dealing with Rand; she wants to actually help him, not make him dance to her tune.

Nice interpretation of yours, but this is what we know from the books:

"...The al'Thor boy needed to be intrigued enough that he allowed her near him, off-balance enough that she could nudge him where she wanted without him realizing. One way or another, anything that might interfere with that must be controlled or supperessed. Nothing could be allowed to influence him, or upset him, in the wrong way. Nothing."

[druidravi]

Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did.

 

Morraine's letter is certainly instructive of what to make of Cadsuane . I would say both Cadsuane's and Rand's manners improved a lot since they first met in ACOS. Their relationship is way smoother post cleansing of the taint  .

 

About Morraine and Cadsuane didn't Morraine believe she was Black Ajah in the New Spring ??.

 

I am thinking of fireworks between these two meeting as  RJ had coated and developed almost every relationship among the characters with a power struggle .

 

Morraine would certainly fare better with Cadsuane than the other Aes Sedai . She will not be revealing her whole life story to her just because Cadsuane looked the wrong way.

 

I'm interested a lot about Min's foretelling about Morraine that Rand would almost fail without her . What is that extremely important thing that she would do .

1. Kill random forsaken with bale-fire . This is almost the stupidest service since we already have several characters who can kill random Forsaken and stronger in OP than her.

 

2. Bring peace between the Amrylin and Rand. The mistrust which has developed between  Rand and Egwene she could be helpful in clearing

 

3. Help Rand come over his channeling sickness . This would be a considerable thing but Nyanvae and Flinn are better candidates than her .

 

4. Reveal black Ajah / random forsaken  / Verin's motives . We already have a lot of detective corps in both camps of Aes-Sedai .

 

5. Give a solution about what to do with the seals to Rand. This would  be nice if she and Min could between themselves understand that philospher's notes  about how to deal with the Dark one's prison .

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyrell]

Moiraine is going to cure Rand of his "I must become a rock, I must obsessively repeat the names of all the women who have died for me in my head, because I am an idiot" thing.

[CUBAREY]

Quote"

 

Moiraine is going to cure Rand of his "I must become a rock, I must obsessively repeat the names of all the women who have died for me in my head, because I am an idiot" thing.

 

Nope, the first Cadsuanne will acomplish. The second needs no curing all the Two Rivers men share a similar outlook. It is also quite similar to the outlook that shinarians have. It may be a bit impractical but its part of an internalized chivelric code of conduct; i.e., do not hurt women, children or the weak.

[druidravi]

Am I the only person who thinks there are just too many women who want to keep Rand's hair from bulging and deflate it , starting with the maidens .

[Tyrell]

Quote"

 

Moiraine is going to cure Rand of his "I must become a rock, I must obsessively repeat the names of all the women who have died for me in my head, because I am an idiot" thing.

 

Nope, the first Cadsuanne will acomplish. The second needs no curing all the Two Rivers men share a similar outlook. It is also quite similar to the outlook that shinarians have. It may be a bit impractical but its part of an internalized chivelric code of conduct; i.e., do not hurt women, children or the weak.

 

The two are far too interlinked to be seperated, he uses his dead women mantra to harden himself. And it's always Moiraine at the top of the list with extra emphasis.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Am I the only person who thinks there are just too many women who want to keep Rand's hair from bulging and deflate it , starting with the maidens .

 

That's what all women do best, all the time, to all men! :D :D

 

 

The two are far too interlinked to be seperated, he uses his dead women mantra to harden himself. And it's always Moiraine at the top of the list with extra emphasis.

 

Well, when Matt and Thom show up with Moiraine her name will be dropped from the list. Her influence was already close to nil by the time she had the cat fight with Lanfear.

 

[Mr Ares]

Moiraine is going to cure Rand of his "I must become a rock, I must obsessively repeat the names of all the women who have died for me in my head, because I am an idiot" thing.

Nope, the first Cadsuanne will acomplish. The second needs no curing all the Two Rivers men share a similar outlook. It is also quite similar to the outlook that shinarians have. It may be a bit impractical but its part of an internalized chivelric code of conduct; i.e., do not hurt women, children or the weak.

The other Two Rivers men and the Shienarans share an unwillingness to hurt women, but Rand goes above and beyond that. His obsessive, pathological repetition of that list is unhealthy, a sign of his madness, and it does need curing. Oh, and have you ever seen Mat repeat his list? Or Perrin? Or anyone else? They may kill women, and they don't want to, but they don't punish themselves in the way that Rand does.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

They may kill women, and they don't want to, but they don't punish themselves in the way that Rand does.

 

Yes but Rand is the Dragon Reborn and in his mind the entire "breaking" is his fault. He is the instrument utilized by the Creator to fight the Do and the instrument by which untold death and misery befalls the human race. Thus, its not really a sign of his madness but of him thinking of himself not as a man but as an "instrument". Its akin to Bridgette's dilemma, its one thing to do heroic acts because there is no other choice another to know that you are a hero and expect yourself to do grand heroic acts. Except in Rand's case the acts he must do will cause death and destruction even if he does everything right.  Under these circumstances if Rand did not exhibit certain neurotic tendencies then he would indeed be stone cold crazy. What needs curing (and what can be cured) is his thinking that he must be harder then hard. Its believing that he should not care that Cadsuane must cure.

[stoper]

The two are far too interlinked to be seperated, he uses his dead women mantra to harden himself. And it's always Moiraine at the top of the list with extra emphasis.

 

Well, when Matt and Thom show up with Moiraine her name will be dropped from the list. Her influence was already close to nil by the time she had the cat fight with Lanfear.

And this support Tyrell's theory. With her name the whole list may collapse. He start it when she "died".

[Harmless Bandit]

It's not accurate to compare Rand and Mat and Perrin in this situation. Only two women have ever died as a result of Mat's actions, three if you count Tylin, which I think Mat does. I cannot seem to recall Perrin killing a woman, or one dying for him. Rand is a different case, as you know.

And IMHO, Rand keeps Cadsuane around mainly because of Min's viewings. If I'm not wrong, there is a point in KoD where he almost told her to go to hell. He was ready to kick her out despite Min's viewings. That to me doesn't sound like a good omen. ?And when he gets upset about her attitude, she expects him to 'not show too many teeth'. I simply hope he won't bite, but considering he's a man on edge, he could.

[dyring]

hmm, just a note for stoper.

 

Cadsuane is indeed a legend among the green, and one thing the has been stated several times is that noone had come to the tower in a thousand years to match Cadsuanes strength before Nynaeve Egwene and Elayne.

 

Moraine was one of the strngest, but quite abit weaker then Casuane. Moraine was the same strenght as Siuan(pre stilling), Lelaine, Romanda and Elaida, they were thought to be the strongest, since everyone thought Cadsuane was dead until she apeared in cairhien.