The Verin/Jain Farstrider connection

[cloglord]

****DISCLAIMER: While I might slip into language suggesting that I believe this theory, In reality, I am merely posing the question, with the intention of generating discussion about a topic that I have not seen discussed here about a hundred times.  I do not believe or disbelieve the theory****

 

 

Okay, so I've been chewing on this looney theory for a while, I think I might have even posted it before, but the recent discussion on Verin reminded me of some things that I think might make it more likely.

 

Okay, we know that Verin is intensely interested in the three tavreren. She has shown this in a number of ways, her disapointment at realizing that Rand had eluded her in TGH, her comments about her reason for traveling to the 2 rivers in TSR, and her later statements in the same book about how if she could divide herself in three she would attach herself to each of the three of them and follow them around.

 

We also have some reason to suspect that Verin either has an extensive network of eyes and ears or had access to the network of the brown ajah.  She seems remarkably well informed, and seems to be widely traveled and familiar with a number of inns in widely separated locations.  The best evidence I can give for this is the example of the nameless inn on Toman Head, that Verin mysteriously rushes into during TGH.  If you don't believe me, re-read that bit and tell me it isn't strange the way she takes off without a word....

 

Assuming that both of the above things are true, (Which I know not everyone will ;) ) It is not unlikely that Verin has access to a number of agents that can help her to keep track of specific locations, events, and people.  Given that she is interested in all three taveren, it seems unlikely that Verin would willingly leave Mat and Rand unwatched.  Of course Moraine could be considered sufficient to keep tabs on the boys.  However, we know from verin's own comments that Verin believes Moraine to be habitualy secretive, and to my mind would not be a trustworthy source for information about the 2 unwatched taveren.  If you are following me so far, this leads us to the question of who did Verin leave to keep an eye on Rand and Perrin at the end of TGH?

 

Okay, so lets back up to the title of this thread.  What makes me think that Farstrider is an agent of the Aes Sedai?  Rememeber the story that Loial told about the demented man who warned them about the EotW?  Most people think that this man was Jain Farstrider returned from torture in the blight at the hands of Ishmael.  A theory that seems to be supported by Ishamel's comments to the wonderboys.  If you re-read this story, (its in TEotW BTW,) Loial finishes his tale by saying that the man left for the white tower to tell his tale.  Why would Jain farstrider, a malkieri, go to the tower, the entity that failed his country in its time of greatest need?  The answer, he's an agent of the tower.

 

If he's in fact an agent of the tower, what ajah does he belong too?  Well he is widely traveled, and his trips have taken him into the heart of places that the Aes Sedai have little knowledge of.  My guess, he's an agent for the Brown.  He's an explorer. 

 

I'll throw this little bit in here as well.  As I recall Farstrider would have made it back to the tower around the same time that verin had her first clue about Rand's rebirth, around 20 years ago.  Further, it appears that Farstrider's message did not become common knowledge after he traveled to Tar Valon, indicating that if he did arrive, his knowledge was imparted to a secretive person.  While Verin is hardly the only secretive Aes Sedai, she would certainly fit the bill. 

 

Okay, so knitting happenstance and moonbeams together I've come up with the admittedly looney theory that Verin has been pulling strings on Jain Farstrider.  Now lets go back to the idea that Verin left Jain to keep an eye on Perrin and Rand.  Where did the old man (Noal/Jain) first re-appear in the series?  At Graendal's house, along the mountains of mist in sight of the Almoth Plain.  Where were the wonderboys at that time?  In the mountains of mist near the Almoth Plain.  Where does Noal end up?  In the same city as Mat, following Mat around.  It seems odd to me that Verin's says that she's interested in all three Taveren, and doesn't seem to think about Mat at all in her thoughts, (admittedly there is a derth of Verin POV's) or her actions.  Yet she seems to have a pretty good handle on both Rand and Perrin.  I wonder, just wonder, if maybe she's not too worried about Mat, becase she's already got an eye on him.       

[CUBAREY]

Quiote:

 

the man left for the white tower to tell his tale.  Why would Jain farstrider, a malkieri, go to the tower, the entity that failed his country in its time of greatest need?  The answer, he's an agent of the tower.

 

Not to neccesarily disagree with the theory (its interesting and makes sense at first reading), but, he could have been an agent of the Dark ordered to report to the black not the brown.  If he is an agent of the dark (forcibly turned) he could have been under the orders of one of the Choosen in Tomain Head and at the time he meet's Mat.

[trakand_01]

This isnt exactly linked to your subject here, although it is a query about Verin. Is it possible that Verin is, in herself, has a voice in her head? One of the main descriptive points that RJ makes over and over about her is that she often tilts her head birdlike, as though listening to something that no-one else can hear.

 

Rand does that too, and we know he's hearing LTT. Is it a possible theory? If it is, who could she be listening to? Is she a reincarnation, as Rand is in a way?

[Lune]

Was there any confirmation that the man in Graendal's house was Jain? Even if he was, this does not explain why/how/what Jain (supposedly Verin's agent) is doing in Graendal's "HQ".

[krelianzg]

Please, someone refresh my memory - what man in Graendal's house are we refering to??

[cloglord]

Not to neccesarily disagree with the theory (its interesting and makes sense at first reading), but, he could have been an agent of the Dark ordered to report to the black not the brown.  If he is an agent of the dark (forcibly turned) he could have been under the orders of one of the Choosen in Tomain Head and at the time he meet's Mat.

 

If Jain were an agent of the black why would he be warning of the threat to the Eye of the World?

Please, someone refresh my memory - what man in Graendal's house are we refering to??

 

In one of the chapters where Sammael travels to Graendal's house, an old man is described as sitting amongst Graendal's pretties.

 

Was there any confirmation that the man in Graendal's house was Jain? Even if he was, this does not explain why/how/what Jain (supposedly Verin's agent) is doing in Graendal's "HQ".

 

No, there are other options, it has been suggested that the old man was actually King Alsalam.  Encyclopedia WOT has no listed description of King Alsalam, however it does mention that he's been king for 20 years, that he has a youngest sister and an eldest daughter that met Graendal's beauty requirements for servitude.  This would suggest to me that Asalam is not most adaquately described as old or white haired either one.  Of course this is just my opinion.  The other indicator that points away from Asalam, id the fact that Graendal apparently forged the letter from Asalam that she sent to Ituralde, why go to the trouble of forging it, if she has the King and could just compel him to do it?  The other option that comes to mind is that the old man is just a red herring thrown in by RJ, but it seems superfuous and out of character for Graendal to have such a glaring incongruity without trying to use it to her advantage.

 

 

[Mighty Chin]

I know this is an old post but it seems to me that it could be very important for AMoL. Since there have already been some interesting ideas posted I would like to see what other people think.

 

My personal opinion is Jain/Noal is a darkfriend. It's just a feeling I get about him.

[Sabio]

Thought Jain was dead?  I know Ishy did something to him but don't remember what.  Doubt he was a DF, thought Ishy said something about painting him as a fool or something.  Would any of the other Forsaken even know or care who Jain was?  Ishy would but Jain did all his stuff while the others were sealed away. 

[Paviel]

I'm pretty sure Noal said something about having been used by the Shadow, and wishing to fight the Shadow for it. Then again, Ingtar was also a Darkfriend, and he died trying to redeem himself.

 

Anyway, it seems pretty likely that Noal is going to end up being the third man in Mat's little rescue mission at the Tower of Ghenjei, and although maybe his status as a Darkfriend wouldn't make any difference there, I'm inclined to think it would.

[benr]

And where has Verin gone and to what purpose, after abandoning Rand after the Trolloc raid in KoD?  She certainly wouldn't be above using Jain for her own purposes; after all, I think she has been trying to use the DR for her project all along.  It'll be fascinating to see how this wraps up; she is almost like an observer placed in the tale that can slip in and out of anywhere, anytime, at least somewhat trusted by everyone (except me, of course, but that has been discussed ad infinitum).

[Hybrid]

Actually, you're all wrong.  Verin is Jain Farstrider.  trust me on this.  There is plenty of evidence to support this.  Similarly, Taim is Demandred and Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn.  ;D

 

Thought Jain was dead?  I know Ishy did something to him but don't remember what.  Doubt he was a DF, thought Ishy said something about painting him as a fool or something.  Would any of the other Forsaken even know or care who Jain was?  Ishy would but Jain did all his stuff while the others were sealed away. 

 

The one Noal POV we get, it's pretty clear Ishy messed him up pretty well in the head.  We don't get details, but Noal's got pretty bad memory problems, and I'm not talking Alzheimer's.  I'm positive Noal is Jain, and I'm pretty sure Jain is not a DF.

[Ashaman Kovan]

If noal is in fact Jain. Which I believe he is. Why would he be working for the white tower? Whats in it for him? I don't think he seems like the type to be unwaveringly loyal and risk his life because verin told him to spy on mat. He seems more like he's atoning for his past sins (Leaving his wife and whatnot) that he remembers "Jain" doing,by helping mat out. And I think he's just a good guy who messed up. By "messed up" i'm paraphrasing being manipulated into bad stuff by the most powerfull forsaken. It's far more likely IMO that he's a darkfriend. I don't believe this so in other words I don't think there is any connection at all. I don't think anything in your theory even gets close to implicating that. Just my opinion though.

[Sabio]

And where has Verin gone and to what purpose, after abandoning Rand after the Trolloc raid in KoD?  She certainly wouldn't be above using Jain for her own purposes; after all, I think she has been trying to use the DR for her project all along.  It'll be fascinating to see how this wraps up; she is almost like an observer placed in the tale that can slip in and out of anywhere, anytime, at least somewhat trusted by everyone (except me, of course, but that has been discussed ad infinitum).

 

Many think she has run of to get the horn, since she pretty much has to because she is one of the few who know where it is.

 

Noal might be Jain but don't see him being a DF. 

[Jagen Sedai]

I don't remember a Trolloc Raid in KoD where Verin leaves after o.0

 

Also where is the Noal PoV?

[Guest Dreadlord]

In one of the late books we got a short PoV about a guy watching someone from an alleyway, a man with knobly hands and using two daggers. I think he was watching Mat when Mat was watching out for Darkfriends in Ebou Dar???

 

I find it far more likely that Noal is Jain and Jain is a Darkfriend. Maybe even a Darkfriend who can channel, I mean how can one guy, even a Darkfriend, survive the Blight? Remember, Ishamael did say he sent Jain to the Ogier, even though Jain thought he went of his own will. Add that to Noals reaction when Mat noticed their surnames (Noal and Jain Charin) when noal stormed off just before saying Jain had been used by Ishamael, I wonder if Jain was not a Darkfriend but more an unwilling tool? Another thing people seem to forget is that only channelers can be turned to the Dark against their will, non-channelers can be forced to do something with Compulsion but they cannot be turned to the Shadow like channelers.

 

So, I personally think Jain is either a Darkfriend working for Ishamael/Moridin, someone Ishamael mainpulated many times and even though isnt a Darkfriend he still cant be free of him, or he is a channeler turned against his will, and is doing a better job of acting than any bad guy we have seen in a disguise for a while.

[Sabio]

Think it would be more likely he was forced by Ishy by compulsion , something like what Verin was doing to the captured Aes Sedai.

 

I don't remember a Trolloc Raid in KoD where Verin leaves after o.0

 

The trolloc attack on the manor house, where LTT seizes saidin and introduced deathgates.  Verin left and had a note sent to Rand.

[CUBAREY]

or he is a channeler turned against his will, and is doing a better job of acting than any bad guy we have seen in a disguise for a while.

 

The problem with this theory is that Noel is quite old and if he was a channeler would have gone insane, decayed and died quite a long time ago. The alternative is that he is Dark (either willingly or turned) and has been given the gift of the DO's protection against madness. Since there is not even a hint that any darkfriend except the Choosen have been given this protection, the theory faulters.

[Luckers]

Well we do know that the Dreadlords were given this protection during the Trolloc Wars, and that likely Taim and those he trained were given this protection too.

 

But, that being said, were Noal a channeler with the protection he would have slowed and not be as old and decrepit as he currently is.

[Hybrid]

In one of the late books we got a short PoV about a guy watching someone from an alleyway, a man with knobly hands and using two daggers. I think he was watching Mat when Mat was watching out for Darkfriends in Ebou Dar???

 

I think he's actually watching Carridin because Carridin is a Darkfriend.  He was there before Mat got there, and he stayed after Mat left.  He fits the description of Noal to a T.  Also, when Mat first meets him after the gholam incident, Mat thinks he's vaguely familiar but can't place him.  I don't think Jain is a voluntary Darkfriend and that he was compulsed, but it is also possible he is like Ingtar.

[benr]

I don't remember a Trolloc Raid in KoD where Verin leaves after o.0

 

Also where is the Noal PoV?

 

For Verin, see chapter 20, The Golden Crane.  The Horn seems a reasonable reason for her going.  Who will she give it to?  Is Mat still attached to the Horn?  He did die, after all.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I personally think Mat is still linked to the Horn, because Rands balefire may have caused the connection between Mat and the Horn to come back into effect, although theres no way to prove either way until someone tries to blow it again

[Luckers]

Most believe that he is still connected to the Horn--and i do myself--but even if he isn't people believing him to still be connected to the Horn would likely play the same role as an actual connection.

[Guest Dreadlord]

What I dont get about the Horn is that when Mat blew it, the Heroes advanced and fell back in unison with Rand in his fight with Ishamael. Mat blew it, they seemed linked to Rand, yet the Horn can be used by the Shadow. Who would they be connected to then, if the Shadow blew it?

[Sieve]

I don't remember a Trolloc Raid in KoD where Verin leaves after o.0

 

Also where is the Noal PoV?

 

For Verin, see chapter 20, The Golden Crane.  The Horn seems a reasonable reason for her going.  Who will she give it to?  Is Mat still attached to the Horn?  He did die, after all.

 

Olver

[Luckers]

What I dont get about the Horn is that when Mat blew it, the Heroes advanced and fell back in unison with Rand in his fight with Ishamael. Mat blew it, they seemed linked to Rand, yet the Horn can be used by the Shadow. Who would they be connected to then, if the Shadow blew it?

 

Awesome question.

 

My answer (and there are others) is this. The function of the Horn in some way draws the Heroes out of tel'aran'rhiod, and in some way suspends the normal rules of physics for them--like Birgette riding on water and shooting arrows that destroy entire ships.

 

My guess is that what it does is blur the barriers between the real world and the dream world, thus allowing the Heroes to affect the real world, yet still be within the dream world. Thus they are able to act in the ways that they do--ways that based on everything we know is impossible.

 

So reality becomes blurry as the solidity of the real world and the ephemeral nature of the dream world mix. Into that you have the fact that the Wheel is pushing for the Dragon. The flow of the fabric of reality is moving in that direction. Add to that (or perhaps as the tool for achieving that) we have Rand's ta'verenism, which normally effects the world as a sort of whirl pool, a web surrounding him in which reality become more fluid, more open to the extremes of chance. This effect is called a "ta'maral'ailen" A web of destiny.

 

So we have the fluidity created by the Horn and the fluidity created by Rand, added to the push of the flow of the pattern itself. What occurs as a result is that the world itself tunes itself to Rand. What he does, it mimics. As he strikes, those he disagrees with fall back, and he falters, so do his comrades.

 

This also allows for the giant visions cast accross the sky, and why Taim and the nameless Dragon were both thrown down at the same time. The world had been made maleable, and thus the effects of Rand's ta'maral'ailen were increased to such a state that they dicatated the reality of the world.