Moraine and Residue

[Kura]

I cam across something rather curious while re-reading tEotW. Chapter 49- The Dark One Stirs

 

What are we waiting for?" mat demanded, the low bamnd of his scarf across his forehead. He had his bow across the pommel of his saddle with an arrow nocked, and his quiver pulled on his belt for an easy reach. Moiraine opened her eys and started down the hill. "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now. We are close, and the Shadow is strong here. Lan?"

Emphisis mine.

 

This, to me, implies that she either knows how to 'pick at' a weave like the Aiel or knows how a way to just make them go away. I also get the feeling she can sense Residues, but that one I'm not so certain of.

 

Your thoughts?

 

[trakand_01]

What did she do last night? Is it the darkhounds outside illian scene?

 

I would imagine that if it is balefire she is referring to, the 'residues' would remain and any channeller would be able to sense them - perhaps linking them to the one who wove the power? I imagine she doesnt want anyone to know that they were there, or be able to trace them, but without knowing the context i'm not so sure.

 

I would imagine that weaves which leave a residue (particularly strong weaves, such as balefire) would leave something behind to be... destroyed, or picked apart as you put it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

What did she do last night? Is it the darkhounds outside illian scene?

 

It was the residue from the wards she had placed up when they had to spend the night in the Blight, before going to the Eye.

 

As to what she was doing ... we don't know for sure, but the description doesn't seem to fit unweaving.  First of all, unweaving prevents residue from ever forming, so it doesn't quite seem to fit how she is describing what she's doing.  I picture it as something more like shredding the residues to make them dissipate faster.  She says they would dissipate "on their own" without her action, so it seems she knows how to make them dissipate faster.

 

This question was raised before ... and no definitive conclusion was reached.  The above is simply my opinion on the matter.

[Kura]

Gah... The first book or two really don't fit well with RJs later details about the power. Small things, but they do irritate me so..

[wvlr]

You know, I just do not see this as being a significant change between the first books and the later books.    Sure we have not heard of it again, but there are suppose to be many "tricks" that the Blue Ajha has and we have only heard of a few.  The same with the other Adjas.  We also have not seen all the possible known weaves and all the talents.

 

In just the last book KoD we saw Avi come up with a new "Talent" and Rand came up with two new battle weaves and an AS discovered at least one new weave.  We also saw our first "Shocklance" and I did not even realize what it really was until a couple days ago.

 

RJ has made some mistakes (very few in my opinion) but I do not see this as being one.

[Man of MAdnEss]

Where have we seen the Shocklance, it has been a while since I read the last few books but could you give a reference wvlr?

 

MM

[CUBAREY]

Its not picking a weave that seems to be a talent unknown to As even in  the Age of Legends (reread the scene in Ebou Dabie where Avi  does it shocking the onlooking foresaken).

 

Also looking for the residue is how Reds search for male channelers.

 

I agree with other post that it may be a Blue trick not known to the other ajahs (or a trick Moraine has kept for herself).  Anyways I envision it to be similar to inverting a weave and making.

 

 

 

[Luckers]

I agree with Robert. It doesn't seem to match Unweaving in the way Aviendha described it. It seems to be something seperate, the destruction or distortion of the residue after it formed.

 

And we see the pistol version of a Shocklance in KoD--it is wielded by Asne against Elayne.

[Kura]

You know, I just do not see this as being a significant change between the first books and the later books.    Sure we have not heard of it again, but there are suppose to be many "tricks" that the Blue Ajha has and we have only heard of a few.  The same with the other Adjas.  We also have not seen all the possible known weaves and all the talents.

 

RJ has made some mistakes (very few in my opinion) but I do not see this as being one.

 

I don't notice anything 'big', its just minor things that are a bit different, I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I know they are there, especially in tEotW.

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, stuff like her choosing to use a wall of fire and rolling earth to fight the trollocs near Shadar Logoth, and that odd weave she used against Aginor.

 

I cringed when I saw the title to this thread, as I argued until I was frustrated the last time this came up. Like RAW and Luckers, I do not believe she's unraveling the weave.

[ignavus1223]

I just want to note that "residues" do appear later in the series.  One example is when the Tower sent AS to read the residues after the Cleansing to try and figure out what had happened.  That was when they thought it was a Forsaken weapon.  I'm pretty sure I remember other references scattered throughout the series.  I don't think it's anything unusual or special removing them.  It's just nobody bothers to do it because they disappear on their own.

[Kura]

Ignavus, yeah Residues do appear later on. Like when Avi unraveled a gateway in Ebou Dar(I think that was the place...), but from that scene I have to say there is something to getting rid of one. Why would they employ such a dangerous tactic if there was such a simple way to simply hack it? Which it appears there is... Frustrating, simply frustrating.

 

Oh well, on to the next one I suppose, don't want to upset Ben. ;)

[wvlr]

Ignavus, yeah Residues do appear later on. Like when Avi unraveled a gateway in Ebou Dar(I think that was the place...), but from that scene I have to say there is something to getting rid of one. Why would they employ such a dangerous tactic if there was such a simple way to simply hack it? Which it appears there is... Frustrating, simply frustrating.

 

Oh well, on to the next one I suppose, don't want to upset Ben. ;)

 

No that was dismantaling an active weave.    Avi did that because if she just let it unravel on it's own.    There would be "residues" that could be "read" by "Wise Ones" and possibly other channelers to discover the "Traveling" weave.

 

What I envision that Mori did was to wait untill her weave disapated - THEN throw some unorganized "spirit/air" around to scramble or disapate the previous weave residues so no one (channeler with the ability) would notice them.    Sort of like what Rand had all the Asha'men do in Illian but on a very tiny scale.

[ignavus1223]

Avi unraveled the weave to prevent residues.  Moiraine removed the residues that had formed.  Different approaches, same result. 

 

Avi and Moiraine were probably not aware of the other's approach to handling residues.  We've seen a lot of instances where the Wise One's have knowledge the AS do not and vice versa. 

[ignavus1223]

By the way, I don't think Moiraine "scrambled" her residues.  She wasn't trying to prevent the creatures in the Blight from knowing what she channeled.  She was trying to keep them from finding out that she channeled at all.  There are certain creatures, like the gholam, who can tell when someone has channeled.   

[RobertAlexWillis]

She wasn't trying to prevent the creatures in the Blight from knowing what she channeled.  She was trying to keep them from finding out that she channeled at all. There are certain creatures, like the gholam, who can tell when someone has channeled.

 

Moiraine had no clue about gholam at that point ... but Myrddraal have some ability along those lines.  Perhaps she was also worried about Black Ajah, or even one of the Forsaken (although she seems to have had no evidence that some were loose ...)

 

But yes, she was trying to keep anyone or anything from knowing that she had channeled there.  However, "scrambling" the residues may well have had the effect of making them fade more quickly, like breaking solid objects into pieces will make them dissolve more quickly in solution.  If she could "break" the residues into small enough "pieces", then they would dissipate right then and there. 

[Razor]

Why would they employ such a dangerous tactic if there was such a simple way to simply hack it?

 

Perhaps it needed to be unraveled because after they traveled from Ebou Dar to the Farm, the residues would be miles from where they were adn, hence, hard to dissipate, even if Avi knew how to do it.

[Harmless Bandit]

She wasn't trying to prevent the creatures in the Blight from knowing what she channeled.  She was trying to keep them from finding out that she channeled at all. There are certain creatures, like the gholam, who can tell when someone has channeled.

 

Moiraine had no clue about gholam at that point ... but Myrddraal have some ability along those lines.   Perhaps she was also worried about Black Ajah, or even one of the Forsaken (although she seems to have had no evidence that some were loose ...)

 

But yes, she was trying to keep anyone or anything from knowing that she had channeled there.  However, "scrambling" the residues may well have had the effect of making them fade more quickly, like breaking solid objects into pieces will make them dissolve more quickly in solution.  If she could "break" the residues into small enough "pieces", then they would dissipate right then and there. 

 

 

I imagine she had to touch saidar, to use it to remove the residues? Wouldn't that act itself leave residues as well? Or maybe there are limits as to what Myrddraal (or other minions) can detect?

[Tyrell]

I just thought it was one of those inconsistancies between the first few books and the latter ones that popped up as RJ's concept evolved.

[Mr Ares]

I imagine she had to touch saidar, to use it to remove the residues? Wouldn't that act itself leave residues as well? Or maybe there are limits as to what Myrddraal (or other minions) can detect?

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that such a weave would erase it's own residue. In the last thread on this topic someone mentioned that it was possible to make computer programs that erase traces of other computer programs (their equivalent to residue), and would erase their own traces while they did it. Not impossible.

 

I just thought it was one of those inconsistancies between the first few books and the latter ones that popped up as RJ's concept evolved.

There are things harder to rationalise away than this, it's not impossible that that is what he meant. I have a feeling that if he were asked about it, he would remain rather quiet on the issue, though.

 

Perhaps it needed to be unraveled because after they traveled from Ebou Dar to the Farm, the residues would be miles from where they were adn, hence, hard to dissipate, even if Avi knew how to do it.

This seems to be a reasonable answer. The Gateway weave was at the starting point, if they collapsed the Gateway the would have had to have sent a "scrubbing" weave back to that start point. Unweaving seems like the only possible course of action under the circumstances, unless they wanted to risk being the Seanchan learning how to Travel.

[ignavus1223]

I agree that the distance issue is a good one for the Gateway.

 

I imagine she had to touch saidar, to use it to remove the residues? Wouldn't that act itself leave residues as well? Or maybe there are limits as to what Myrddraal (or other minions) can detect?

 

Another option is that the residue erasing weave is so small, it dissipates almost immediately. 

 

 

 

[professorskar]

I don't notice anything 'big', its just minor things that are a bit different, I can't think of any others off the top of my head, but I know they are there, especially in tEotW.

 

The weirdest thing I remember, or at least the thing most different from other forms of weaving seen in the series, was when Moiraine made herself appear as a giant when they were escaping Baerlon.  Not that that in itself is weird, since it could be be explained away as simple Illusion, but she actually steps over the wall to escape.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The weirdest thing I remember, or at least the thing most different from other forms of weaving seen in the series, was when Moiraine made herself appear as a giant when they were escaping Baerlon.  Not that that in itself is weird, since it could be be explained away as simple Illusion, but she actually steps over the wall to escape.

 

Well ... the illusion stepped over the wall.  I doubt that Moiraine did.

[ignavus1223]

If you saw a giant step over your city wall, I doubt you would notice if a small woman slipped through the door at the Giant's feet. 

[CUBAREY]

How about this, Moraine's weave doesn't actually dissipate the residues as much as its an inverted weave which hides the residue until it diispates. Kind of like an inverted weave that hides an illusion weave, which is what Mogy uses to hide her true identy in Salidar.