Semirhage - Asha'man Warder?

[krelianzg]

I just considered the possibility that Semi will be bonded with that "extra bit" by one of the Asha'man.

 

I really don't know why it never occured to me before, it seems like a pretty obvious way to control and utilize such a powerful and dangerous prisoner.

 

I don't really think it will play out that way, since at the very least Cadsuane would throttle Rand with her bare hands if he allowed it to happen, but I'd be quite pleased if it did.

[Luckers]

I've concidered that too--i dont think it likely given the relative superstitious fear modern people have for the Forsaken. Lacking a Cadsuane-type male figure i see no man willing to risk that connection, if it even occurs to them.

[Thunderbomb]

My oppinion... Semi is a bit to dangerous to try and control I imagine they question her, doing what ever it takes to weasel some info on were the remaining Forsaken are, then she gets stilled, just my two cents

[Lune]

Plus, can you imagine any Asha'man wanting to kiss her :P They'd sooner kiss a goat I imagine.

[elmis]

I've never really understood the 'extra bit' part. What makes that happen? Just saidin > saidar when it comes to bonding, or is strength in the power relative? At any rate, I pity the fool that has to have Semirhage in his head.

[krelianzg]

I agree that everyone would see it as too dangerous (except maybe Rand, but he's got more than enough bonds to go around already and to say LTT would be upset would be a vast understatement).

 

From a practical standpoint, however, the Asha'man bond seems like it would be perfectly safe, even with someone like Semirhage. From what we've seen, it's more effective than the Aes Sedai bond, and in some ways even surpasses Compulsion. It seems like it "reprograms" the Warder's will based on the Asha'man's commands.

 

When Logain bonds Toveine, she can't even make herself want to escape.

[Luckers]

The extra bit is an intentional alteration to the weave that adds a compulsive element to it. It has nothing to do with strength, or the differences between saidar and saidin--indeed i imagine there is its alternative in saidar, in fact we know that to probably be the case between Romanda's underhanded suggestions to egwene about altering the bond and memories of the time when Aes Sedai routinely bonded men who weren't willing.

 

If you were asking about why the extra bit is successful in controlling Aes Sedai whilst the Aes Sedai compulsive aspect was not successful in compelling Rand, the answer does indeed lay in the difference between the natures of saidin and saidar. Specifically Sammael states that a man wrapped in saidin is immune to compulsive effects--either because the inherent chaos of saidin disrupts compulsive weaves, or because mean in holding saidin exist in a constant state of hightened confrontation including the specific assertion of control--we simply don't know.

 

But we do know that the same does not hold true for women, as we see Moghedian compel Nynaeve and Elayne whilst they hold saidar, and later Graendal does the same with Cyndane and Moghedian. Clearly the tranquility of saidar, or the the surrender inherent in controlling it does not offer the same protection as the male method, hence the Asha'men's success.

[Cadsuane]

I've concidered that too--i dont think it likely given the relative superstitious fear modern people have for the Forsaken. Lacking a Cadsuane-type male figure i see no man willing to risk that connection, if it even occurs to them.

 

Perhaps Caddy herself should bond Semirhage? That would be an entertaining read. It won't happen, of course, but it would be entertaining. ^_^

[krelianzg]

It would make for a certain poetic justice too, seeing as how Semirhage fled the service of the Light and joined the Shadow under the threat of being bound for her little "perversions".

[elmis]

Thanks Luckers. :)

[Wayhey]

I say they should put an Oath Rod in her hands and make take her renounce the Dark One, pledging to fight him until her last breath.  :D

[Thunderbomb]

I say they should put an Oath Rod in her hands and make take her renounce the Dark One, pledging to fight him until her last breath.  :D

 

Good idea except Semi would probably love a chance to blow the Oath Rod to bits.

[krelianzg]

Will the Oath Rod even work on someone who is shielded? We know it won't work on non-channelers...

 

Semi is as self-serving as any of the other Forsaken though. If she were bound to an Asha'man, she would probably cooperate as much as possible just in case the chance to escape came along later. That would probably appeal to her far more than death or stilling.

 

Another thing, do the female Forsaken have the same "black strands" connection to the DO as men do? If so, will Rand sever hers as well? I imagine that would give them additional leverage over her, a la Asmodean.

[Lune]

Oath Rod works on shielded people. The person taking the Oath only needs to be holding the rod, someone else can channel into it.

[Tyrell]

She can be shielded and still swear an oath on it, besides, as mentioned, it'd be somewhat ironic.

 

Edit : Beaten to it!

[HoppyQ]

Another thing, do the female Forsaken have the same "black strands" connection to the DO as men do? If so, will Rand sever hers as well? I imagine that would give them additional leverage over her, a la Asmodean.

 

No.  The black strands are just on male forsaken to protect them from the taint of saidin.  Sadar doesn't have a taint so the females don't need protection.

[krelianzg]

Ok, didn't know if that was their only function or if they were also related to the "mark" that allows the Forsaken to command Shadowspawn.

[aevogt]

Galina is bound while being shielded.

[Wayhey]

No.  The black strands are just on male forsaken to protect them from the taint of saidin.  Sadar doesn't have a taint so the females don't need protection.

 

Is that from a Q&A?  I haven't seen anything in the books that says either way on that one.  My theory is that besides shielding men from the taint, these wires are what gives the Forsaken thier immortality and allows the DO to catch their souls if they are killed.

[hurryupnwait]

the female forsaken do have the black threads connecting them to the Dark One.  If you look back Lanfear is nearly sick when Rand tells her that he has severed Asmodean's connection  to the Dark One.  I believe her reaction to this news was from her thinking about suffering a similiar fate.  If she had no such connection she would not even have batted an eye.

[TurboZ]

She could have felt that way because she knew Rand was damning Asmodean to madness.

[Wayhey]

She could have felt that way because she knew Rand was damning Asmodean to madness.

 

I doubt Lanfear is all that sympathetic.  She's in it for her.

[Wayhey]

the female forsaken do have the black threads connecting them to the Dark One.  If you look back Lanfear is nearly sick when Rand tells her that he has severed Asmodean's connection  to the Dark One.  I believe her reaction to this news was from her thinking about suffering a similiar fate.  If she had no such connection she would not even have batted an eye.

 

I'd say that's some pretty good proof.  Nice one!

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you look back Lanfear is nearly sick when Rand tells her that he has severed Asmodean's connection  to the Dark One.  I believe her reaction to this news was from her thinking about suffering a similiar fate.  If she had no such connection she would not even have batted an eye.

 

Um ... she wasn't "nearly sick".  She was very surprised because Rand had done something she thought couldn't be done.  She also was a little nervous because this is the first time she faced him where he outmanoeuvred her and outgunned her.  But her reaction is certainly not "proof" that the female Forsaken have "black cords" too.

 

No.  The black strands are just on male forsaken to protect them from the taint of saidin.  Sadar doesn't have a taint so the females don't need protection.

 

That is one theory, however, it is not proven either.  RJ never said it, to my knowledge, and it doesn't quite fit with a couple of things we know.  First off, Ishamael had renounced the One Power, and didn't need any protection from saidin.  Additionally, his "black cord" swelled and grew during his two fights with Rand ... but Ishy wasn't using saidin during those battles, he was using the True Power.  However, Jordan did say that using the True Power is not a function of the "black cords".  ([ACOS book signing, Dunwoody, Georgia; 9 October, 1996, report by Erica Sadun], "Access to the TP is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords.")

 

So, what do we know?

 

1. The "black cords" swell when Ishamael draws on the True Power, but are not the means of drawing the True Power.

 

2. Rand only ever actually sees the "black cords" when he is outside the regular part of the Pattern (on Ishamael, in Tel'aran'rhiod in TEoTW ch 51, and TDR ch 55, and on Asmodean, in skimming space, TSR ch 58).  When he cut off Asmodean, he mentally visualized where the "black cord" should be, and struck (TSR ch 59).

 

3. When cut off, Asmodean becomes vulnerable to the taint.

 

Conclusion:

 

Most likely, in my opinion, the "black cords" are an "outside the Pattern" manifestation of the Forsaken mark.  It is through that mark that the male Forsaken recieved their protection from saidin, however, it does far more than just that.  It identifies them to Shadowspawn, and probably allows the Dark One to keep tabs on them.  Also, they "swell" when the True Power is accessed because that brings the Dark One's attention directly to the user.

 

If this is the case, then the female Forsaken would have them as well.  Rand has never followed one of them through skimming space, or confronted one of them in T'A'R in the way he confronted Ishamael (ie, a fight the Dark One would be watching).

 

A potential hole in this theory is Rand's fight with Rahvin.  However, that fight would be a hole in the "saidin filter" theory too ... 

 

A potential explanation is that the Dark One wasn't really paying attention when Rahvin ate it, so the "black cords" weren't visible.

[lou]

i always find it interesting when the extra bit bonding is discussed. i dont believe it is the same as the traditional warder bond at all. if it were possible to compell the bonded with the traditional, then why alter it? romanda and co discuss altering the bond, and the tower reds discuss the alteration as well. if yo could compell against a person's will, especially since it has been expressively prohibited by tower law, why would you need such an alteration?