Semirhage - Asha'man Warder?

[Mr Ares]

I prefer to think of it as retro-active self defence. killing doesn't = murder.

Maybe you would like to think of it in more favourable terms. Maybe you would like to use euphemisms, and duck the issue, and use fancy terms to distract from what you are doing. I really don't think you have that capacity for cold-blooded killing. And a pre-meditated killing on a captive without benefit of trial looks an awful lot like murder where I'm from. If they had the Geneva Conventions in Randland it would be a war crime as well. Shooting prisoners is murder. I suppose you'll say she was "shot while trying to escape" as well?

[Reiver]

I don't feel you can apply that sort of rigid morality to Randland. Things are possible there that aren't in the RW and situattions that could never arise here can there. Semi isn't just a prisoner she's a coiled serpent. She's shackled now but in that same scene it's made clear that she's escaped from a similar situation before. Killing her isn't just about justice for her past crimes but preventing future ones and getting rid of the need to divert forces to look after a very dangerous prisoner. Short of severing her on the spot you can't really deny her her weapons without a significant allocation of resources that are needed elsewhere.

 

Here there's a possibilty to undo at least omne of her crimes with her death whereas in the real world you can't bring back a loved one (or a hand) once they're gone.

[Mr Ares]

Semi isn't just a prisoner she's a coiled serpent.

Killing her in the manner you suggest would still be murder. Even murder because you can't spare the resources is still murder. I acknowledge it for what it is. It may be necessary, but it is still murder.

 

In the real world you can't bring back a hand once it's gone.

The only way to do that here is with a weapon that, by its very nature, is damaging to the Pattern, at a time when the Pattern is weak. I don't think the undoing of the crime is worth the price.

[Sabio]

I agree with most of whats said but killing a simple prisoner is different then getting your hands on someone responsible for thousands of deaths.

 

Whats the difference between holding a show trial and executing her and just killing her?  I mean everyone knows she is guilty.  Many might just look at it as doing justice.  The Aiel for one wouldn't hesitate to kill her on the spot.  Keeping her alive is a risk since the shadow will almost certainly try to free her.

[DhaiMon]

 

Whats the difference between holding a show trial and executing her and just killing her?  I mean everyone knows she is guilty.  Many might just look at it as doing justice.  The Aiel for one wouldn't hesitate to kill her on the spot.  Keeping her alive is a risk since the shadow will almost certainly try to free her.

The question here is: Is it really that dead-certain that the Shadow will succeed once more in successfully rescuing one of his top-dog servants? Doesn't that kind of get old, especially after Aran'gar's disguise got uncovered?

Besides, even pious(or sanctimonious, if you will) Egwene realized that keeping Moghedien as a prisoner and source of knowledge was necessary in the end. And look what has come of it: Women rediscovered Traveling, are well on their way to rediscover how to make 'angreal, and more. Would Moghedien have been executed right on the spot, that could never have been achieved. Maybe Semirhage will finally be prodded into doing, or at least guiding, yet another thing that was thought lost or impossible up till then, which is to Heal severed limbs.

In the end, I'd much favor the outcome of Semirhage being kept as a 'slave' during Tarmon Gai'don and even afterwards, and that in the end the most merciless torturer of the Age of Legends would finally forsake her devotion to the Dark One in resignation once her master yet again gets a fine beating. A most ironic twist that would be. Besides, maybe our new Empress Tuon, may she live forever(or at least very long), might see a certain "thrill" in keeping the woman that was masquerading as herself as damane instead of simply executing her. Would serve one of the Forsaken right, and in a way be less "merciful" than just killing her.

[mb]

And look what has come of it: Women rediscovered Traveling, are well on their way to rediscover how to make 'angreal, and more.

 

Actually, the Traveling was discovered by Egwene and the making of ter'angreal/sa'angreal/angreal was discovered by Elayne; both on their own.  They did not need Moghedien for those two things.

But otherwise Moghedien was a good source of information.

 

[Nightstrike]

I have no idea what they're gonna do with Semirhage, but Randland has the death penalty. Didn't Rand have some Aiel he actually LIKED hang for LESSER crimes than those Semirhage commited? Most of the real world had the death penalty some 200-500 years back (similar societies as those in WoT). I don't think they are ever gonna get any information out of Semirhage, no matter what they do. She's as evil as anyone could ever be. Only chance she'll ever have of continuing her sadistic perversions is if she stay faithful to the DO. So my bet is that is exactly what she'll do. If she ever gives them any information, it's likely to be a bait for a trap.

[DhaiMon]

Didn't Rand have some Aiel he actually LIKED hang for LESSER crimes than those Semirhage commited?

I seem to recall that as well...some time in Fires of Heaven, right?

That's a point in favor of Semirhage's execution, I got to admit, although I hope that either Rand's law-and-order-ish side will give way to pragmatism in this respect or that Tuon indeed does want to have Semirhage to do with her as she pleases before Rand can proceed with trying and executing her; if anyone knows how to handle a'dam, then it's the Seanchan, and if Cads doesn't manage to "break" her first...besides, it just would be great fun to see her broken.

By the by, I had this other, crazy thought about what would maybe happen to her then: The Hand of the Light might seem out of the picture, but how would the possibility of good Asunawa and crew submitting themselves to the Seanchan sound to you? I would think of some Epilogue-like scene along the following lines:

<Semirhage sits confined in her prison cell, brooding, Tuon walks in>

Tuon: "Semi, my naughty pup, I have visitors for you..."

<Asunawa and assistant(s) enter>

"Semi, you see, these fine men here wanted to demonstrate their skills, so if you would please make yourself...comfortable?" <evil smile>

 

Just off the top of my head, but I'd think that...cool.

[Tel Janin]

Didn't Rand have some Aiel he actually LIKED hang for LESSER crimes than those Semirhage commited?

 

Mangin.  He was one of the Stone Dogs who followed Rhuarc into the wetlands.  He went to the gallows for killing a man who had gotten a tattoo of a dragon on his arm.

 

Anyway, how do you convict someone from the Age of Legends?  There are no witnesses, most all the written information on her alleged atrocities has been destroyed...it's all hearsay.  Unless she convicts her self out of her own mouth, how are you gonna hold a trial?  Thoughts?

[Nightstrike]

Anyway, how do you convict someone from the Age of Legends?  There are no witnesses, most all the written information on her alleged atrocities has been destroyed...it's all hearsay.  Unless she convicts her self out of her own mouth, how are you gonna hold a trial?  Thoughts?

I don't know... Aren't the Forsaken's atrocities pretty well documented? Being sworn to obey the Dark One is pretty incriminating in itself. But Rand don't want to kill women, so he might not allow it. It'll sure be interesting to see what happens with her in AMoL.

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Whats the difference between holding a show trial and executing her and just killing her?

One puts forward at least a pretence of belief in the rule of law, justice, giving people a fair trial, that sort of thing. The other doesn't bother with the pretence.

I mean everyone knows she is guilty.

Everyone knew the Nazis were guilty. Didn't stop Nuremburg.

Keeping her alive is a risk since the shadow will almost certainly try to free her.

Just because killing is sometimes the lesser of two evils, doesn't make it right.

[General Cauthon]

Keeping her alive is a risk since the shadow will almost certainly try to free her.

 

Excellent!!! Now we have Forsaken bait ;D

 

Or Perhaps Moridin will just let her rot, especially since she tried to kill Rand AFTER Moridin told them to leave Rand alone. Perhaps he sends Slayer to kill her, and then recycles her?

[Reiver]

Just because killing is sometimes the lesser of two evils, doesn't make it right.

Apart from in this casekilling is the best solution. Summary justice is still justice.

 

I wonder how much Rand's aversion to killing women affected the outcome. If it had been Demandred or, even more interestingly, Arangar whether he'd have rolled out the balefire shielded or not.

[the_Genghis_Khan]

I actually think whats going to happen is that they will slap a A`dam on her and try to get stuff out of her like they did Moghy. However I don't think it's going to work. Were talking about the ultimate BDS&M freak. She's gonna laugh at them with everything they try to use to force her to talk. Hell she's gonna get off on it more than likely.

 

 

This

 

They have multiple a'dams laying around, this would be the obvious route to tie her up with.  I doubt that she'll enjoy the pain, she likes to deal it out but I bet she cracks like a windshield in a 12 car pile-up when they start picking her brain.

[Sabio]

Anyway, how do you convict someone from the Age of Legends?  There are no witnesses, most all the written information on her alleged atrocities has been destroyed...it's all hearsay.  Unless she convicts her self out of her own mouth, how are you gonna hold a trial?  Thoughts?

I don't know... Aren't the Forsaken's atrocities pretty well documented? Being sworn to obey the Dark One is pretty incriminating in itself. But Rand don't want to kill women, so he might not allow it. It'll sure be interesting to see what happens with her in AMoL.

 

 

Yeah don't think her saying I am one of the Forsaken sworn to the Dark One but totally innocent of all charges would really be an effective defense. 

 

Think because she is a woman Rand wouldn't order her execution, not sure if he would stand by and allow it to happen even if Cas ordered it.

 

And for using her as bait to lure the shadow to free her, lets look at past history.

1. They were able to kill Asmo

2. Able to free Mogi

3. Able to kill 2 black Ajah in the stone of tear

 

So the good guys track record of keeping captives isn't good.

[the_Genghis_Khan]

 

And for using her as bait to lure the shadow to free her, lets look at past history.

1. They were able to kill Asmo

2. Able to free Mogi

3. Able to kill 2 black Ajah in the stone of tear

 

So the good guys track record of keeping captives isn't good.

 

I don't think keeping her alive is a good plan either.  Nynaeve has knowledge of how being a suldam works.  I'm sure Nynaeve would love to pick Semi's brain about more complex healings and she is familiar with the whole Moggie situation and would probably quickly assume that this another valuable opportunity to learn from one of the Forsaken.  I'd slap an a'dam around her neck, interrigate her under heavy guard for a few days then hold a trial with immediate execution of the death sentence.  (Innocent until proven guilty need not apply.)

[Mr Ares]

Just because killing is sometimes the lesser of two evils, doesn't make it right.

Apart from in this casekilling is the best solution. Summary justice is still justice.

This doesn't look a lot like justice to me. Best solution in what sense? Because it's easier? And even if it is the "best" solution, doesn't mean it's a good solution, just the least bad. Sometimes killing is the best solution, but that doesn't make it right. I continue to wonder how much experience you have of killing, given your apparent willingness to do it in this case.

 

If it had been Demandred or, even more interestingly, Arangar whether he'd have rolled out the balefire shielded or not.

Doubtful. Cadsuane has already warned him off balefire. It's far too dangerous for such casual use. Plus, keeping her alive for interrogation makes sense, and would make sense even if dealing with a man.

 

(Innocent until proven guilty need not apply.)

So will you bother with a fair trial, or just pretend?

[Anomalous]

well, just call me a long time lurker... been reading dragonmount forums for years now.. recently i've gotten all the WoT books in Audiobooks cds.. my work is such that i can listen to them while i am working..  i've listened to them a few times now (the whole series).. anyway... Book 11 has me really thinking about what will happen in the last book(s)..

 

i've really been thinkin about Semirhage's capture..

 

bonding her i think is out of the question..

 

using the a'dam seems the most logical way to hold her.  like was said by other posters, Nynaeve is very familiar with the use.. and if you'll remember Moghedien tried to defy Nynaeve until Nynaeve bundled some painful memories and kept feeding it to Moghedien.. over and over and over..

 

Semirhage is arrogant.. and she is cruel.. and her reputation is what made people soo afraid to keep her captive as she states after her capture (if i remember correctly)..

 

but even if she can give it out.. i dont think she can take it.. i dont think she's ever had to take it.. she was used to always being the TorturER, not the torturED

 

also Semirhage with an A'dam on her neck.. could be used against the shadow ;)

 

 

side note.. i wonder how if a leash holder could channel while linked to another that is channeling..

[MikeRiley]

 

If this is the case, then the female Forsaken would have them as well.  Rand has never followed one of them through skimming space, or confronted one of them in T'A'R in the way he confronted Ishamael (ie, a fight the Dark One would be watching).

 

 

Nynaeve was with Moghedien in TAR and there was no mention of cords. Unless that cord is made up of Saidin she should have been able to see it.

 

 

Whats the difference between holding a show trial and executing her and just killing her?  I mean everyone knows she is guilty.  Many might just look at it as doing justice.  The Aiel for one wouldn't hesitate to kill her on the spot.  Keeping her alive is a risk since the shadow will almost certainly try to free her.

 

Welcome to the good guy side. The bad guys will always have the upper hand because the good guys have laws. That's the difference that sets us apart. We have a lot of terrorist prisoners in Guantanamo right now that could have been executed on the spot, otherwise. While they might execute prisoners themselves, we will not (at least I hope we don't) because we are not the bad guys.

 

Besides, think of the prestige and major morale boost that would come of people learning a forsaken was captured, put on trial and executed.

 

 

Anyway, how do you convict someone from the Age of Legends?  There are no witnesses, most all the written information on her alleged atrocities has been destroyed...it's all hearsay.  Unless she convicts her self out of her own mouth, how are you gonna hold a trial?  Thoughts?

 

There are a number of witnesses to her admitting who she was when she was captured so she's already convicted herself out of her own mouth.

 

also Semirhage with an A'dam on her neck.. could be used against the shadow ;)

 

Whatever happens to her, she will be kept well away from the Last Battle to avoid the risk of being freed. She will not be stilled because stilling can now be healed and they would not risk that either. I read through that part recently and it seemed to me that Cadsuane was looking forward to her talks with Semirhage, so she won't be executed (not by Rand at least). Compulsion won't be used by the Aes Sedai because it's a forbidden weave, so that would leave either an a'dam or the Asha'man warder bond.

 

Semirhage escaped before and Elza is still around.

 

 

 

 

Edit: More on the death without a trial, a quote in another thread:

We all know that Mashadar was the entity created by the people of Aridhol because of their strict desire to destroy the shadow they themselves began to enlist the methods of the Shadow and worse in order to fight it. People in the world often said "Better to encounter a Trolloc than a Aridhol soldier".

 

Evil is evil. When you fight evil with evil, you are evil.

[Mr Ares]

If this is the case, then the female Forsaken would have them as well. Rand has never followed one of them through skimming space, or confronted one of them in T'A'R in the way he confronted Ishamael (ie, a fight the Dark One would be watching).

Nynaeve was with Moghedien in TAR and there was no mention of cords. Unless that cord is made up of Saidin she should have been able to see it.

I don't recall mention of Rahvin's cord in T'a'r in FoH.

[lgautam]

They ought to hold a formal trial and execution. It wouldn't be to difficult to convict her considering that people are hung in Randland for being caught THIEVING.

It would be a bad idea to hold her captive either with the a'dam or the Oath Rod(which Rand doesn't have). Quite a lot of people were involved in her capture and they wouldn't be able to keep it quiet like in Moghedien's case.

And the last thing Rand needs right now is rumors of him associating with one of the Forsaken.

[Nightstrike]

They ought to hold a formal trial and execution. It wouldn't be to difficult to convict her considering that people are hung in Randland for being caught THIEVING.

It would be a bad idea to hold her captive either with the a'dam or the Oath Rod(which Rand doesn't have). Quite a lot of people were involved in her capture and they wouldn't be able to keep it quiet like in Moghedien's case.

And the last thing Rand needs right now is rumors of him associating with one of the Forsaken.

That was my thoughts exactly.