Scrutiny

[Samuraiflip05]

Well it seems I just saw all the wrong entries about GRRM.  I will give it a try sometime in the future.  Tyrell, I don't need a story to be epic in proportions to enjoy it, the knowledge of how big it is just helps establishing a time frame for reading it.  It can be frustrating starting a series when only half the books are out.  I read EoTW within a year of it's release and didn't find out there were others until FoH came out in paperback.  I have reread with each new book and I think the people at the bookstore wanted to shoot me.  Once a week I was in there asking about the next book...lol.  I am currently invested in two other multi book(10+) series that are still ongoing.  Although they are individual stories set in the same world, so not as hard to wait for the next book.

[Cybertrolloc]

The first three book's main thrust is certainly epic and mostly wrapped up before the 4th besides a few loose ends. It's worth reading for that, just that the main story hasn't really started up yet (and parts of it are still pretty nebulous).

 

First reading A Game of Thrones: pace is slowish at the beginning, but once you get to King's Landing things don't settle down until mid-book 3. There are a lot of characters and history, most of which will be important at some point (he handles info dump better than most writers, but there is a lot). There is tons of foreshadowing throughout the series, most of which probably not obvious for the first read through.

 

I recommend it highly, just that Martin does things most other writers don't: major characters die, likable characters die (sometimes they're both at the same time--and they still die in horrible ways ;)). There is very little in the way of clearly good or evil characters, it's gray almost all around. It's a brutal setting. So if those things would bother you...

[Samuraiflip05]

I guess the problem arises in the fact that most stories are about a character and what they go through.  I assume that with the character turnover that is mentioned so frequently, that GRRM writes about places and events and the characters are secondary?

[RobertAlexWillis]

A Song of Ice and Fire manages to be very character driven, despite the high rate of casualties.  There are very important characters from the first chapters who are still very much alive.  There are also very important characters who get killed.

 

In my opinion, Martin manages, better than any fantasy author I know, to make mortality a part of the story.  There's a greater feeling of drama, because you know that nobody is immune.

 

As much as I like Jordan, you know for a fact that Rand, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min, Elayne, Aviendha, Tuon ... they're just not going to die.  Nobody gets that kind of bye in ASoIaF.

[akaliel]

Ya, you gotta realize that there are 6 or 7 characters with approximately equal POV's in ASoIaF.  1 or 2 of them might not make it to the end of a book.  And in the next book you'll find 1 or 2 new POV's.  It is a very heavily character driven story, every single character is completely unique and unlike any other.  There are no two people who share tons of characteristics (I'm looking at you, every single Aes Sedai).  The only difference with it and other fantasy story's is that these characters are now mortal.  They can and do die.

 

But it's funny, because after the first book you'll be really upset by the death of a main POV, and thinking "how could he kill him, he was the main character".  But by the time you get to the end of the fourth book you'll realize that he was never the main character, the story was never about him.  His death marked when the story really began.

[Davian93]

***aSoIaF SPOILERS DO NOT READ UNLESS YOU HAVE ALREADY READ THE BOOKS***

 

 

The Red Wedding really shook me up even for Martin.  I actually had to put the book down for a day or so after reading that.  I won't go into any further detail than that but man that was a rough...and thats why GRRM is a great writer.

 

[akaliel]

Agreed Davian, that was hard to read.  I nearly threw the book out of the window at that chapter.  What kept me going was at the time the name for the last book was "A Time for Wolves".  It's since been changed to "A Memory of Spring" or something like that.  But knowing that there would be vengeance, eventually, pushed me along.

[Cybertrolloc]

Before I lend my books out to another unsuspecting Martin fanatic, I'll throw the quote that sums up an awful lot of the tone of ASoFaI (and by the time we get to the Red Wedding, we're pretty numb from the preceding horrors ;))

"Prince Rhaegar led free men into battle, not slaves. Whitebeard said he dubbed his squires himself, and made many other knights as well."

 

"There was no higher honor than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone."

 

"Tell me then - when he touched a man on the shoulder with his sword, what did he say? 'Go forth and kill the weak'? Or 'Go forth and defend them'? At the Trident, those brave men Viserys spoke of who died beneath our dragon banners - did they give their lives because they believed in Rhaegar's cause or because they had been bought and paid for?" Dany turned to Mormont, crossed her arms, and waited for an answer.

 

"My lady," the big man said slowly, "all you say is true. But Rhaegar lost on the Trident. He lost the battle, he lost the war, he lost the kingdom, and he lost his life. His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate, and Robert the Usurper rode over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne. Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

[akaliel]

That was one of the best paragraphs in the book and is definitely the tone of the story.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Seriously ... I'm always surprised that people were surprised by the Red Wedding.  How anyone could think that Robb would actually get away with the whole Jeyne Westerling thing is beyond me ... Even Ned Stark, idealistic honor-bound idiot that he was knew he had to marry for power, and kept his "honor" to taking care of his bastard.  Robb was an idiot, and kings who are honorable idiots in war die.

 

Cybertrolloc's quote is precisely perfect.

[Davian93]

Even Ned Stark, idealistic honor-bound idiot that he was knew he had to marry for power, and kept his "honor" to taking care of his bastard.

 

****MAJOR SPOILER****

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, Ned didn't have a bastard.  Jon Stark is most likely his nephew due to the rape of his sister by Rheager...its not definite but its pretty heavily implied.

[akaliel]

*** ANOTHER SPOILER ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still think Ned's sister was raped by Rhaegar?

[Samuraiflip05]

Well, it seems I inadvertantly switched this post from scrutiny to GRRM.  Sounds like the common tone of the world first impressions are wrong, because those who speak first usually have nothing constructive to say...lol.  Definitely sound like books to look into.

[Davian93]

***************ANOTHER SPOILER*************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still think Ned's sister was raped by Rhaegar?

 

Yeah, of course it has been about 2-3 years since I read any of the novels but it did make the most sense from what I remember.

[Cybertrolloc]

ALL SPOILER, including my avatar. Don't look!

***************ANOTHER SPOILER*************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still think Ned's sister was raped by Rhaegar?

 

Yeah, of course it has been about 2-3 years since I read any of the novels but it did make the most sense from what I remember.

R+L=J is one of the who killed Asmo topics of ASoIaF. Then again, it might actually mean something to the story too lol (and isn't it convenient Maester Aemon is blind).

[RobertAlexWillis]

isn't it convenient Maester Aemon is blind

 

Dead now, too.  ;D

[wvlr]

***************ANOTHER SPOILER*************

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You still think Ned's sister was raped by Rhaegar?

 

Yeah, of course it has been about 2-3 years since I read any of the novels but it did make the most sense from what I remember.

 

On your next re-read pay special attention to:

1.  Who is the only (possibly biased) person that ever says anything bad about Rhaegar.

2.  Who is Lyanna making eyes at, at the tourney.

3.  Who seems to return the attention.

4.  How many wives do Tarniagians occasionally have.

+++

[lou]

if rand had not attacked sammael in the anticlimactic way that he did, would we have had moridin saving his butt in SL and the crossing of the balefire flows which have given rise to so many more theories? perhaps rj did have a plan....

[DemandredFO]

I know, Robb stark killed Asmodean:lol