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Rand vs Gandalf


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Guest silver89

Rand wins hands down. While old Gandalf is twirling his staff and muttering his spells, Rand would whip out the balefire.

 

AND

 

Good-bye Gandalf! :)

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Hate to ruin the fun, but to be fair, you can't pit two people against each other when they have entirely different methodologies, each based on separate cosmological laws, because there is no middle ground.

 

Because if Gandalf had ever lived in a world where balefire existed, don't you think he would have learned how to do it?

 

There are other examples, but you get the point.

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I voted for Gandalf...but I actually think Rand would win, simply because Gandalf rarely gives us a taste of what his power is actually like...my favourite episode is in "The Ring goes South" when he kills the wolves.

But sadly I have to admit the the old sage would be badly beaten against Rand.

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Gandalf was the emissary of a God (The Valar, who revived him!) and far more powerful that any human. So even if Rand did manage to kill him, the Valar would simply revive him and he'd swoop down and smite Rand!  :P

Not even Rand would be revived by the Creator.  :D

 

Rand is kindof like that too... see book 1.  The Valar wouldn't do poop de squat, they just sit there in paradise and do nothing.  Rand is reborn by the wheel, the Valar cannot resurrect someone removed from existance. Rand would be more powerful if gandalf existed in his world, because that is what makes him the Dragon.  :p but I agree with that guy that said you can't really compare them.

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Gandalf was the emissary of a God (The Valar, who revived him!) and far more powerful that any human. So even if Rand did manage to kill him, the Valar would simply revive him and he'd swoop down and smite Rand!  :P

Not even Rand would be revived by the Creator.  :D

 

I've read LOTR and I don't remember The Valar Where did this info come from or did I just miss something? Help me out here.. Thanks.

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Rand is kind of like that too... see book 1.  The Valar wouldn't do poop de squat, they just sit there in paradise and do nothing.  Rand is reborn by the wheel, the Valar cannot resurrect someone removed from existence. Rand would be more powerful if gandalf existed in his world, because that is what makes him the Dragon.  :p but I agree with that guy that said you can't really compare them.

 

I wouldn't call call Rand an emissary from the Creator. It's not like The Creator and The Dragon had a meeting and said 'OK, I need you to go down there and sort stuff out.' The Creator never interferes, the pattern spun Rand out through necessity. However that is exactly what happened with Olórin (Gandalf) he was sent specifically by Manwë.

 

Gandalf was actually revived by the Valar (as Gandalf the White), specifically Eru Ilúvatar did this. I agree you can't really compare the two, but at the same time balefire can't just mean Rand wins. As Gandalf the White he was one, if not the most powerful being in all Middle-Earth, only the Witch-King of Angmar could possibly have been stronger. But we'll never know since they never managed a duel or anything.

 

 

I've read LOTR and I don't remember The Valar Where did this info come from or did I just miss something? Help me out here.. Thanks.

 

It's not in the LotR directly, it's in books like The Silmarilion and Unfinished Tales and I think some others. Basically The Valar were created by Ilúvatar or 'God'. If I remember there was 13 good guys (The Valar) and one @sshole (Melkor, who created Sauron.) The 14 were sent to the world to shape it as they saw fit, 13 made it beautiful but not Melkor. The Valar had a big battle and finally defeated Melkor and they decided to create all the races of Middle-Earth. That done the holed up in the Undying Lands and decided not to interfere anymore. The Valar had servants, called The Maiar. Eventually The Valar decided to send people to help out Middle-Earth (Sauron had since risen). The greatest of The Valar (Manwë) sent Olórin of The Maiar, more were sent too. Olórin was Gandalf. Curumo was Saruman etc.

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I voted for Rand.

 

I have a great deal of respect for Gandalf & he is one of my all time favorite characters but, Gandalf always seemed reluctant to use his power.

 

Take the incident with the Balrog for instance. Gandalf stood there and told it to shoo "You shall not pass.". The entire chase through Moria would not have happened If Rand was there. He would have killed all the orcs & strolled on to the exit.

 

Rand would have taken one look at the Balrog and Balefired it end of story.

"OK he didn't pass, Next"

 

Rand is more likely to do something and as such very likely to kick Gandalf's Ass.

 

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To add to what Dragon Reborn wrote, and in response to Paladin, the reason that Gandalf didn't use his "powers" against the Balrog is that, when he came to Middle Earth, his (angelic) powers were limited to match those of mortal men. His gift was one of persuasion and inspiration, allowing him to encourage men to better themselves and fight evil. However, after the fight with the Balrog (who, incidentally was also one of the Maiar, as was Sauron), his immortal powers were restored and he was no longer limited by the confines of the mortal world of Middle Earth.

 

So, in a contest with Rand... pre-Balrog fight, no contest. Post-Balrog fight, Gandalf is now restored to his full immortal powers, whereas Rand remains mortal - whatever happens to "resurrect" him.

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Child of Lir,

 

I still stick to my guns with regards to Rand vs. Gandalf.

 

Gandalf even after the Balrog was never very active. He shooed a few Ringwraiths without ever killing any of them himself. He left that to a princess & a halfling. And he never made a significant diffrence to any of the battles he was involved in. Other than making sure other people were there to insure victory.

 

Imagine Rand in Gandalf's place at the Battle of Minas Tirith or the battle at the Gates of Mordor.

A few death blossoms, some fire arrows & the fight is over.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am a great Gandalf fan. I believe that he was the person most responsible for the defeat of Sauron. But he was a leader & Negotiator not a fighter. Rand could take a few lessons from him.

 

In a one on one fight Rand would win.

I doubt evan an immortal could survive being burned out of the pattern.

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Just to add my little bit to this.

 

Gandalf was never given back his full powers even after the Balrog, his whole prescence was to guide the sides of good. He was not allowed to take any action directly against Sauron. He would not even kill Sauruman, because he was a fellow Maiar (which incidently were actual Gods, there were lesser Gods rather than the main ones which were the Valar).

 

So to actually compare Gandalf (whose full powers have never been seen) against Rand could not be done.

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For all those saying Rand would win by just using balefire. First we have to be clear is this a To the Death battle because I would think they are both on the same side. so this would be a See whose stronger battle. In which case RAND WOULD NOT USE BALEFIRE. Thus said Experience Usually trumps raw strength.

Furthermore if you say this a to the death battle Rand would still be hesitant to use Balefire on an old helpless man he and his to the sky ego would also be confident he could win. Besides, didn’t he promise someone he would not use it? Thus, Gandalf’s experience still trumps Rand! ;D

 

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You can compare two people from different worlds and Gandalf would lose because his magic is more limited by chanting, Rand can put a gag of air in his mouth and defeat him, with bonds of air. and Balefire would work against Gandalf.

 

"Gandalf was the emissary of a God (The Valar, who revived him!) and far more powerful that any human. So even if Rand did manage to kill him, the Valar would simply revive him and he'd swoop down and smite Rand!  Not even Rand would be revived by the Creator."

 

If to the death, regardless of the presents of Balefire, Gandalf could be revived by G-d, note: in Rand's world he may be able to be revived by the creator as well, only the Dark One is limited from reviving someone who was Balefired. Note: this is a possibility, not one I believe RJ will use it is too 'dues ex machina'

 

Another discussion heard at another place... Neo vs. Rand, Neo because he can slow time and dodge balefire, the fight might be similar to Rand's fight with Ishy in Tel'rhoid, only Rand would be unable to assert his will in Neo's world and Neo could rewrite any attack to miss or even disolve in mid-air. The Reason Neo had trouble with the bad guy in 2 & 3 was because the bad guy was originally programed to overwrite the matrix and he too discovered that he could rewrite things that he was not programmed to rewrite...

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I'm not familiar with LotR, I never could get past after they are out of the Shire. Doesn't Gandalf need to cast spells or something? If that's the case, he wouldn't get out more than a syllable; channeling works much faster.

 

Niss, not to be nasty or anything, but why don't you start a thread where you can diss Rand at your heart's content? It's clear you don't stomach him, and frankly I would rather not read any negativity about him in a thread dealing with other stuff. I am guilty of this very thing when Faile or Egwene or Elayne are concerned, that's why I'm asking humbly  :-\ At least there we would be able to answer you.

Promise or not, Rand would use balefire if he took a fancy to it; Cadsuane just doesn't have that much influence on him.

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Unless you bring the two into a world where the same rules apply to both, there is not much way to compare them. For example if Gandalf plays by LotR rules and Rand play by WoT rules problems occur. In Rand's world the Creator strictly will not not interfere (Rand will not be revived by him if defeated) However Balefire doesn't mean that Gandalf can't be revived. The soul of Gandalf would end up in some sort of 'heaven' Balefire or not Balefire, whereupon Eru Ilúvatar can simply revive Gandalf if he feels like it. Unless people mean to argue that Balefire destroys the soul, Balefire cannot work in LotR-land.

 

This is all still assuming that Gandalf would get defeated because also in LotR-land, Gandalf is far stronger that any mortal! Even if Rand did win he can only kill Gandalf so many times before he gets too tired to channel.

 

People think Gandalf doesn't use his power much, even avoids it? Remember Gandalf chased the Necromancer (Sauron) out of Mirkwood, fought Saruman, fought and defeated the Balrog (whick was nearly as strong as Sauron himself [both were Maiar of the bad variety]), killed a ton of goblins in the Misty Mountains, killed more goblins while perched in a tree etc, etc. Does that sound like he's afraid of a fight? He's just smart and avoids it when he can, using brain over brawn. Rand can at times thrown strategy out the window and run head-long into trouble because he's just looking fir a fight. Rand also fears to channel at present, being afraid LTT will take over, we've even seen Rand get distracted when he needs to defend himself, it cost him a hand! It's very possible something similar would happen fighting Gandalf, seeing as LTT would surely start babbling about killing him and that he is dangerous.

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Gandalf, though somewhat power, was limited by the restrictions the Valar placed on him. His mortal flesh actually made him weaker.

 

He was forbidden to take direct action against Sauron (i.e. fight Sauron 1 on 1), but he was given a little more power to use when he was reborn, though he was still severely limited.

 

Iluvatar, or God, created the Spirits first, and sent them a vision in the form of music, and from there, they went and created what he had shown them.

 

The greatest of these spirits where called Valar, and the rest were Maiar. Morgoth, originally called Melkor, was one of the Valar who wanted to stake his claim to Earth, but the Valar didn't think that was right, so a war was raged. Morgoth corrupted some spirits, including the Balrogs and Sauron, but he was defeated by the Valar directly in the end, and cast into the Void.

 

But the result of the Valar and him waging war was disastrous destruction, so they agreed to never take a direct hand against anyone else again.

 

So when Sauron rose again, and the Dragons and Balrogs awoke, they sent 5 wizards to do the job for them, though they put limits on what they could do.

 

 

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Wait a minute.  The Creator made the world, the wheel, and the means to weave the pattern.  He had to know the effects that would have and thusly he "created" the dragon.  Also when I was referring to book one I was talking about where the creator says something to the effect of there being one who could stop the Dark One IF he chose.  I can't remember the exact circumstances, but it is the only time the creator has spoken in the series.  I thought it was profound that the creator knew the Dragon could save the world (imo made this the Dragon a part of the pattern) but would not force his hand.

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I'm fairly certain that the creator has never directly spoken in any of the books. Or else my memory is useless and that would be something huge I managed to miss. Also it was the Pattern that spun out the Dragon as a need to bring change. Remember the pattern uses ta'veren when great change is required.

 

Also even if Gandalf was severely limited by the Valar powerwise, he was still the most powerful in all Middle-Earth, just like Rand is one of the most powerful channelers going.

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