Verin and her 70 year project

[Luckers]

Ah ok, i get the distinction your making now. Sorry, i was an idiot. :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

It's a very thin hair.

[DonDew]

  Ive been thinking about this alot and I have a theory that I haven't seen suggested.

  I have a strong suspicion that our esteemable, mysterious Verin may (just may), turn out to be either an agent of the Creator or of the Pattern itself.

  She seems to turn up at just the right crucial moments and places from the most innocous(being there when Moraine and Suian are subtly discussing Rand and, fairly easily, knowing exactly what they were talking about), to the almost obvious(the"infamous"lying scene in tGH,coincedentaly being in the Two Rivers when Perrin shows up,and showing up in Caemlyn just in time to join with the embassy and follow Rand.)

  Besides, the DO and the baddies have the Forsaken, lots of dark-friends seemingly everywhere, and all sorts of cool, nasty little critters (including doggies!!), it just seems fair that the Good forces have some kind of "Wild Card" too.

 

 

[Vambram]

  Ive been thinking about this alot and I have a theory that I haven't seen suggested.

  I have a strong suspicion that our esteemable, mysterious Verin may (just may), turn out to be either an agent of the Creator or of the Pattern itself.

  She seems to turn up at just the right crucial moments and places from the most innocous(being there when Moraine and Suian are subtly discussing Rand and, fairly easily, knowing exactly what they were talking about), to the almost obvious(the"infamous"lying scene in tGH,coincedentaly being in the Two Rivers when Perrin shows up,and showing up in Caemlyn just in time to join with the embassy and follow Rand.)

  Besides, the DO and the baddies have the Forsaken, lots of dark-friends seemingly everywhere, and all sorts of cool, nasty little critters (including doggies!!), it just seems fair that the Good forces have some kind of "Wild Card" too.

 

 

 

Thats one of the best, and most intriguing theories about Verin which I have ever seen, and I agree with you. I hope that this theory proves to be the correct one!

[Gentled Ben]

Besides, the DO and the baddies have the Forsaken, lots of dark-friends seemingly everywhere, and all sorts of cool, nasty little critters (including doggies!!), it just seems fair that the Good forces have some kind of "Wild Card" too.

 

They do; he's called The Dragon. I like the idea too, though, but I don't think that's what she is. She's just a maverick Aes Sedai with a clue. That lie still bugs me, though...

[Luckers]

Kind of reminds me of the Purple Ajah theory that was bandied around for a while back in the day... that Verin belonged to a secret ajah within the tower dedicated to doing what needed to be done for the light....

[Caramoore]

I know that I'm going to screw this up but... Didn't at least one of the sisters that Verin used her non-compulsion compulsion on turn out to be a dark sister who seems to think she has a duty to make sure Rand makes it to the last battle? Seems like I remember a part from her POV in the last book. Sorry for all the vagueness but I have not read the books in a while and may be misremembering but I think it was in the last book. I need to do a reread.

[Tyrell]

Yes, that's Elza. It's a good example of the self-rationalisation aspect of Verin's type of Compulsion.

 

Verin uses her brand of Compulsion

Elza then has to come up with a reason within herself to follow verin's commands.

She decides that she has to see that Rand reaches TG so that the Dark One can defeat him there.

 

And now she is very furvent indeed in her service/protection of Rand, and still believes herself faithful to the Dark One too.

[Kiyre]

I don't think it's consistent to claim that Verin is an agent of the Creator, given what we know. After all, what else is the point of the Creator's I WILL TAKE NO PART (in tEotW)? Presuming that was the Creator (and it fits with everything else we're told), sending Verin on a quest isn't taking no part. If this is supposed to be a drama with human actors struggling to undo their mistake and repel the dark one, and if the creator doesn't even help Rand (beyond constructing a stairway) although Rand is explicitly his agent, then why would said creator involve himself with Verin? It ruins the entire cosmological scheme.

 

Also, let's say for the sake of argument that she *is* the creator's agent. Is she some sort of spiritual being, or is she a person who the creator spoke to from the sky and provided a mission? I find the idea of her as a spiritual entity inconsistent with her behavior and POVs (after all, her quest would likely be more than 70 years old and all evidence points to her being a normal human channeler). And so I think, unless anyone has alternate hypotheses here (a wilder one being that there is a secret order with direct communication from the Creator), we must acknowledge that if she's the creator's agent, it's probably only to the degree that he gave her a mission.

 

It seems like we have many other explanations for Verin's actions that are better and more logically consistent. She may have learned something from notes, may have been given a directive 70 years ago, etc. All of these propositions are more parsimonious and have more evidence than the claim that she is the only other person beside Rand that the Creator ever spoke to, and that she received a mission from him, thus violating his directive not to intercede with the turning of the wheel.

 

Therefore, Verin is to my mind almost certainly not the Creator's agent in any strict sense. Or at least, I don't like the idea at all.

[CUBAREY]

I agree that being an agent of the creator makes no sense in light of the cosmology of  the series (agent of the pattern is also out as we have been explicitly  told that the pattern is neither good nor bad).  If there were an organized purple agah (or egg shell white Agah) I think we would have been given a whole lot more clues of its existence by the 11th book. However, we have a whole lot of maverick A.S. out there. Verin is probably just among the more deadly of those who follow the light.  She is the "Dirty Harry" of the White Tower, a little compulsion on sister that kidnapped Rand, no problem-- contemplating poisoning Cadsuane because she was unsure of her intent, regrettable but necessary under the circumstances.  Not trusting many of her fellow A.S.- just smart. Frankly, of all the A.S. she is my favorite. A Vigilante A.S.-- she deserves a prequel just to herself.

[wvlr]

A Vigilante A.S.-- she deserves a prequel just to herself.

 

OH Yes!    I could live with one of those.

 

 

I do think that she is an agent of the Light - Just as Suan and Moraine are.  Not some special group or such, but she probably got some "special info" like they did.    Maybe it was from someones "fortelling"  or from the Dreamer.  I personally think that it was from the "Dreamer" and that was probably why she did not want to turn over the "notes".    The notes might have revieled too much about her.  ie if she revieled some special knowledge in the notes she might have some "explaining" to do.    "Vernin - you knew about this 70 years ago and never told anyone about it?"

 

Just like Suan and Mory she had to hold her "secrets" closely.

 

[professorskar]

I've heard the "Verin is an angel" and "Verin is purple Ajah" theories before, and I don't buy it, for the same reasons most people have said.  It doesn't seem to fit in the series at all, there haven't been any hints towards its existence, etc.  What would be the reason for a secret Ajah dedicated to serving the Light?  ALL Aes Sedai are supposed to serve the Light.  It's the same reason there aren't any Lightfriends.  Everyone is supposed to be walking in the Light already, there'd be no need to make a distinction.

[Allo]

I've heard the "Verin is an angel" and "Verin is purple Ajah" theories before, and I don't buy it, for the same reasons most people have said.  It doesn't seem to fit in the series at all, there haven't been any hints towards its existence, etc.  What would be the reason for a secret Ajah dedicated to serving the Light?  ALL Aes Sedai are supposed to serve the Light.  It's the same reason there aren't any Lightfriends.  Everyone is supposed to be walking in the Light already, there'd be no need to make a distinction.

Short Answer:

 

The reason for a secret Ajah is because of the qualifier you named. Secrets. Some information is dangerous and it is from this knowledge and the inability to share this knowledge due to the fact that it could be misused by either the ignorant or manipulated for the purposes of the Dark One that such a group would form. There are many examples of this in the book, from Siuan's and Moiraine's knowledge of the birth of the Dragon Reborn, to Elaida's suspicions of the Black Ajah within the Tower and its subsequent hunt. Perhaps even the knowledge that Verin has gained from the famous notes or other unnamed sources and her task.  Grouping these people together under a specific label such as "Lightfriends" is merely a way to differentiate them from everyone else.  You could just as easly call them the "Chosen of the Light" or other such non-sense, its just a label of convience.

 

 

 

Long Answer:

 

I believe that most of the disdain for the "Purple Ajah" and "Lightfriend" theories is mainly an issue with terminology and slightly skewed logic.  Generally these theories attribute members recieving orders from the Creator in the same manner that "Darkfriends" and the "Black Ajah" do from the Dark One.  I wouldn't say this is entirely false though, considering the talent of foretelling/dreaming being the main source of sensative information that those who are attributed these titles base their work from.

 

Verin, Moirain, Siuan, Leann, and even Eladia(no matter how delusional this character really is) would all fall into these categories.  I would also drop Min and Egwene into this grouping as well.

 

The fact that all are supposed to be walking in the light is a big difference from those that work to preserve the world from falling into darkness.  I believe in freedom, but its our military that defends that based on knowledge that most times I am not privy to since its dismination could be counter-productive to the cause at hand.  I see the definitions of the "Lightfriends" and their ilk, being much similar to this. They are in essence a group acting on sources of information that are not available outside their immediate circle for fear that the release of the information could be manipulated by Darkfriends/Black Ajah/ect..

 

While the cosmology does dictate that the Creator will have no direct action, it does not state in any shape or form that he did not build within the pattern the tools needed to preserve itself.  An instruction manual to the universe so to speak.  These instruction are doled out through prophecy/foretelling/dreaming/viewing and in and of themselves neither good nor evil.  The fact that that those recieving them strive to prevent the Dark One from escaping his prison, and that they cannot release that information for fear that Darkfriends could use it, would create many small secret societies within the sphere of 'everyone walking in the light' which in turn get affectionate names by the internet community as a whole as things like the "Purple Ajah" and "Lightfriends" to sort of define a group of people that are privy to sensative information and allow for a label that people can understand.

 

One such large group would be the followers of the Dragon Reborn.  Sure, most of the population 'walks in the light' but these are the people actively fighting to see that it doesn't fall into darkness and guided by the Prophecies of the Dragon amoung other additional sources.

[cloglord]

It's only been like 5 pages of threads, but I felt the need to drop in here.

 

(agent of the pattern is also out as we have been explicitly  told that the pattern is neither good nor bad).

 

No, I don't think its out, its called Taveren, and since the pattern is a creation of the Creator for a specific purpose, Taveren are specifically agents of the pattern, and in a larger sense, doing the work of the Creator.  That said, I don't think that Verin is Taveren.

 

I agree with the points made about Verin by RAW and Luckers.  Certainly her study of the notes of Coriannin may be some sort of impetus that set her on her path, but there are other clues that have not been mentioned.  I'll recap them, because I have done the Verin intensive re-read that RAW suggested for himself, and I took notes.

 

Around 930 Verin makes her last mistake.  Thirty years later, around the time of Malkier's fall, she begins studying the "name hidden within a name" fragment that she shared with Egwene.  It is also at this time that she aquires her flower angreal. This is the major problem I have with the Coriannin notes being the impetus of her 70 year project.  I assume that Verin probably found her angreal along with the dream ring, as both artifacts appear to be undocumented by the White Tower.  If this is true then it would have been a 40 year project not a 70 year project.  It is far from certain, but I think it is likely the case.

 

It is also interesting to note that apparently she is involved in her own thing to such an extent that she does not know who Isam is as per TGH.  What was she doing during the fall of Malkier that has her oblivious to the specifics of such a large worls event?

 

 

  We also know from her comments in TGH that her first inkling that the DR was reborn came around the same time that Tar Valon was besieged.  If she had some mention from Corianin's notes specifically referencing the Dragon reborn's rebirth, I think that would have qualified as a "clue" and kept her from making the statement that she did by the 3 oaths.  It is because of this that I believe that Neadal's notes are referencing something else, and that if her 70 year project is derived from them, then she must have realized, after the fact, that the three taveren are key to her achieving this previously unrelated goal.  Alternately it could mean that the notes were found at that time, and that her 70 year project is unrelated to Nedeal's notes.

 

 

  It is also easy to assume from her quick entry into the inn on Toman Head, and her mention of another inn in Carhien, (The great tree?) that she has a network of eyes and ears, or perhaps even has some connection to the ajah E&E's.  What this might mean, could be anyone's guess, but it could explain why Verin seems so well informed. 

 

There is of course the matter of the lie, but that has been well covered, so I will go on to another seldom discussed Verin topic. 

 

Why she knew to go to the 2 rivers, and why she went.  It is obvious from TSR that Verin had identified Perrin as the wolfking by this point.  This implies that she has spent quite a bit of time studying the prophecies of the Dragon.  Coupled with her correct interpretation of the 5 ride forth... prophecy, I would say that Verin has to be the foremost authority, (Excepting Ishmael perhaps,) in Kareathon (Sp?) prophecy.  She even surpasses Moraine, as Moraine knew the specifics about Perrin's wolfbrother status, and still failed to make the connection.  Further, for the careful reader she clearly states her reason for traveling to the 2 rivers, as being, "Taveren."  Perrin asks her point blank why she and Allanna went to the 2 rivers, Verin tries to give the run around, Perrin calls her on it, Verin tries to calm Perrin and tells him that she will answer his question.  If Verin is in fact bound by the oath against lying, this means that she HAS to answer the question, yet the only other thing she said to Perrin at this time is to whisper, "Taveren," over her cup of tea.  It is at this point in the story where she makes the claim, that if she could split herself in 3rds she would attach herself to each of the three taveren.  This implies to me that her 70 year plan isn't directly related to Rand himself, but is rather tied to all three taveren.

 

There are several loose ends with Verin as well.  We know that her last mistake, and the beggining of her plan coincide as having happened 70 years ago.  There are two things that seem likely candidates for this mistake.  One is the mysterious happenings in Far Madding that led to her arrest warrant.  The other is the death of her first warder Balinor.  We know that Thomas came along 10 years after the death of her first warder, and Thomas is described as having greying hair.  Lan is also described as having greying hair and we know that he is around 50 and hase been a warder for quite a while.  It is certainly possible that this mistake seventy years ago, led to the loss of her first Warder, Balinor.  A third contender springs to mind, and that is the failed attempt at compelling a man.

 

We also know that Verin is unsurpassed at delving, and that she has an extensive knowledge of herbal medicines, as evidenced by her sleeping draught for Moraine and Siuan in NS, and the fact that she asked the wiseones for a sleeping draught that she knew could be used as a poison.  This could certainly indicate something about her pre-aes sedai past, or it could just be a skill set that she picked up over the years.

 

The last thing that I'll discuss is Verin's sudden obsession with the immenence of TG.  It is clear from KoD's that Verin is fixated on TG to the extent that she feels that there is a better way to serve Rand, than to stay with him.  She cites the sightings of ghosts as a sign that TG is VERY close, and it apparently has motivated her to go off on her own.  I think that it has been speculated correctly that Verin is off the fetch the Horn of Valere and from there, reunite Mat with the Horn.  I will spare you all my theories on how that will come to pass, but suffice it to say, Verin seems to be willing  to aim at some target other than Rand, and that in many cases, it is in more in preparation towards TG than it is towrds the support of any specific person.  She seems, to me at aleast, to be working towards making sure that the Prophecies of the Dragon are all fulfilled before TG.  She is tha facilitator of the 5 ride forth, she is the first to recognize the wolfking prophecy, was there to ensure that Rand would learn Laughter and Tears from Cadsuane, and now is apparently off again to make sure that the "Horn will be found only in time for the last battle."  She seems to have made a habit of helping to fulfill obscure dragon prophecies, while letting the big ones take care of themselves.

 

As for Verin being a part of a secret group, I think that it is likely that there is a secret group.  The group of sisters operating under Cadsuane's sphere of influence, but that is another theory for another thread...

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Taveren are specifically agents of the pattern, and in a larger sense, doing the work of the Creator.

 

Taveren do indeed further the pattern but nothing in the books even suggests whether this advancement is in support of the Creator (instead of the DO). The pattern is nuetral, tavaren adnance the pattern.  Some Rand, Mat, Perrin are in the lioght but there tavaren's orks to advance the pattern not the light.

[Caramoore]

I would have said they are to Balance the Pattern, which is why for all the cool lucky things that happen around Rand and the boys there are as many bad...

[elmis]

That was a good read cloglord! Thanks :)

[dreago]

Hmm.. I would not say that Ta'veren are agents for the Creator, but since the DO is trying to break the Wheel then you could call them anti-DO

agents.

[cloglord]

Taveren do indeed further the pattern but nothing in the books even suggests whether this advancement is in support of the Creator (instead of the DO). The pattern is nuetral, tavaren adnance the pattern.  Some Rand, Mat, Perrin are in the lioght but there tavaren's orks to advance the pattern not the light.

 

Yes, the pattern is neutral, but it the work of the creator.  Presumably the creator made the pattern for a reason, the most likely one being the imprisonment of the DO.  Therefore an agent of the pattern is carrying out the will of the creator and is actively working against the DO.  Think of it this way, if the creator was a baker, creating bread to feed people, the bread is a means to an end, and it would not exist without the creator.  Further it would not be bread if it were missing the key ingredients, the taveren.  The bread is neutral, it doesn't care if it gets eaten, but if the ingredients were in a position to know their part, they would care, because what good is baking powder all on its own?  Have you ever eaten straight baking powder?  It sucks.  But it provides an important function.  It makes the pattern fluffy and light.  And if the pattern weren't fluffy and light only the DO would eat it.....

[Jonn]

I think that Verin is involved with something to do with time itself.

 

She has some knowledge of things like the portal stones, alternate worlds, time loops and things of that nature. To add to the thoughts that others have put up, I think her role in this tale is to act as a messenger.

 

She is time's messenger, which is not to say that she's a time traveller. I think she has found a way to glimpse where the pattern is going or at least trying to go. I don't think she's ta'varen or a particular vessel of the Creator or the Pattern's will any more than Moiraine or Lan or any major piece of the tale is. She serves her role as she sees fit, and she claims in her own thoughts that she hasn't made a serious error in 70 years. So I concur that she is following some sort of map to a destination that involves a particular timeline.

 

Now, "the lie". We all know that there are a couple of possibilities here. She's either Black Ajah, or has been released from the Oath against lying. OR she could have never have taken that oath.

The other possibility is that she did not lie. Moiraine somehow DID send her.

 

Now here's where I'm going.

 

The doorways to the Aelfinn and Eelfinn. There are two and the lead to different places.

 

The Rings of Rhuidean and the Rings in the Tower. They show possibilities. The test for Aes  Sedai and Accepted, for the Wise Ones, for an Aiel Chief...Dreaming, Fortelling...

 

There are several ways to access the hidden worlds beyond regular,linear time. Not all of the paths are the same but the elements they touch upon are related, correlated to how the Wheel is moving and the Pattern it is weaving.

 

OK, I may be losing some of you. What I'm saying about Verin is that for some time now, she has been glimpsing into these worlds, gathering information, studying the variations, the clues, putting these pieces together, and by this current timeline...she's only missing a few pieces. The puzzle is about to come together.

 

I believe that Moiraine did send Verin, but it must have been in some other variation of time that we could not have been aware of in The Great Hunt. As we have read on, it's more and more apparent that Verin knows things that others do not, not even Moiraine.

 

This has long been a theme in the series. Knowledge if given at the wrong time, acted upon at the wrong time, or used in the wrong way can cause serious damage. A person who knows this and possesses such knowledge will naturally be very cryptic, and cautious about how they reveal knowledge to others and in what context they deliver these revelations.

 

The examples are there and they are pivotal parts in the series. They are meant to be as cryptic as Verin is.

 

The Dreams. Wolfdream and Dreamwalking. The Aiel Dreamwalkers and Egwene, Perrin. The Fortellings. Gitara, and Elaida, Nicola. The Aelfinn. Tuon's damane Seer. The Portal Stones, the Rings and the Columns. Moiraine's letters.

 

Moiraine sent those letters with the intention that they be read at precise moments. So you have people acting rather suspiciously, like Thom, but they are bound by the knowledge given them, to hold information and act in a specific way until the time is right.

 

So Verin...she acts in ways that are mysterious. Her POV thoughts mention time and plans, and it is suggested that she must do things in a particular fashion. She says things that are at odds with what should be, like her "lie" and the irony in the way she wrote to Rand in Knife of Dreams.

 

In Rhuidean, Rand went through the columns there to see the history of the Aiel. The past, as it actually happened through the eyes of the Aiel. Now, as far as we can tell, there must be a terangreal that exists that does something similar...perhaps something that shows glimpses of the actual future, and not like the Rings the Wise Ones travel through...not the possible future...THE future. So if one set of Rings is in the White Tower and another set went to the Waste in Rhuidean, maybe many years ago, Verin Mathwin glimpsed the future through some kind of similar terangreal or onject. Not the whole of it, not the way Moiraine was bombarded such that her memory fades rapidly. Instead she may have glimpsed the future in a way similar to what Rand saw in the columns. She jumped around and saw particular things, but...there may have been further variations to the way the terangreal would work than we can know.

 

So, no, Verin is not really a time traveler as some have hypothesized before. I think she is a witness to the pattern, She studies it, and time, and how it moves and it determines her path and her actions as it has for over 70 years up till the Last Battle, the end of the Age cycle.

 

And so this is why she is often the mysterious messenger in the series. She intervenes at crucial times, giving messages, clues and subtly directing the key figures towards what she has interpreted is the correct path. And she hasn't made a major mistake in 70 years.

 

Maybe we can trust that.

[Nightstrike]

OK, I may be losing some of you. What I'm saying about Verin is that for some time now, she has been glimpsing into these worlds, gathering information, studying the variations, the clues, putting these pieces together, and by this current timeline...she's only missing a few pieces. The puzzle is about to come together.

 

I believe that Moiraine did send Verin, but it must have been in some other variation of time that we could not have been aware of in The Great Hunt. As we have read on, it's more and more apparent that Verin knows things that others do not, not even Moiraine.

 

Well, that was an interesting idea. Before I read that, I was going to suggest that Moiraine was the one that lied and not Verin. But now I am very much into your idea instead. It's certainly more appealing to me!

[elmis]

One word could have different meanings though:

 

Ingtar: "Why are you here, Verin Sedai?" (respectful)

Verin: "Moiraine sent me!" (cheerful, kinda like "Moiraine asked me to look after you")

 

Rand: "You sent Verin to babysit me!!" (angry)

Moiraine: "I did not send Verin!" (defensive, kinda like "I didn't send her, but I asked her to look after you..")

 

However, at this point we know that there is more to Verin than meets the eye, though I don't think she's any agent of the light, messenger from time or any of the other theories. I simply belive she's an Aes Sedai, with her own agenda, which is to make sure the good guys win TG.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Allow me the pleasure of quoting myself, on the subject of whether or not Verin had to lie to say what she did.

 

Its very simple.

 

Moiraine said that she wished "one of us" (Siuan and Verin were with her at the time) could go with Rand.

 

So, Verin is using that as her justification to say that Moiraine "sent" her, in a passive sense.

 

Its like when someone says "Well, when Betty-Sue cussed out Mary-Jane in the hall ... oooooo boy they sent the rumors flying!"

 

Neither Mary-Jane nor Betty-Sue intentionally "sent" rumors, nor did the rumors "fly", but the word works.  Just because Ingtar heard something different ...    ;)

 

Its classic Aes Sedai wordplay.  Naturally when Moiraine is asked later, since she didn't intend for Verin to go, she says "I didn't send Verin".

 

Verin did not speak any word that was not true.  What Moiraine said is what "sent" Verin with Rand, and so, Moiraine "sent" her, even though Moiraine did not mean to send her.

 

That is only one of numerous justifications that allow Verin to say what she said without technically lying.  It also could be as simple as "The fact that Moiraine wouldn't come forced me to, because the boy could not be left free at such a critical juncture, so, Moiraine's actions sent me.  Therefore, Moiraine sent me."

 

There are plenty of ways that Verin's statement can be justified, none of which require her to lie.  And if she believes it will work, then it will, because the Oaths are interpreted through the mind of the Sister who swore.

 

This one gets blown waaaaaay out of proportion.  Its just a really good example of "the truth an Aes Sedai speaks may not be the truth you thought you heard."

 

There is simply no need for a convoluted explanation about how Verin could say what she did ... its well within the normal scope of Aes Sedai wordplay.

 

As for "glimpsing into these worlds, gathering information, studying the variations, the clues, putting these pieces together" ... well that postulates methods that we certainly haven't seen ... and aren't necessary in a world with plenty of prophecy to study.

 

Yes, I know that Jonn mentions "There are several ways to access the hidden worlds beyond regular,linear time." and gives examples.  Most of those are examples Verin had no access to (all the entrances to 'finn-land, and the Rings of Rhuidean), some wouldn't be useful at all (the test for becoming Aes Sedai) and some would almost certainly be as useless (the Rings in the Tower test for becoming Accepted, which only showed marginally real possibilities because Egwene brought a Dreaming ter'angreal into the same room ... Nynaeve's experiences were clearly not real possibilities) and the Prophecies are Foretellings ... and if the source is someone else's Dreaming, well, that brings us right back to Corianin's notes, doesn't it?  We know that there is something of value in what we haven't seen, otherwise she wouldn't have contemplated burning them, or handing them to Egwene.

 

We know that Verin hadn't actually been transported by Portal Stone ... ever ... before Rand took her to Falme ... so that couldn't have been the source of her justification, or her information.

 

Neither Moiraine nor Verin had to lie to make that sequence work.  This is simply another instance of overcomplicating the simple.  Verin is smart, and has done her homework (studied the prophecies intensely for years).  We've seen one possible source of additional secret information (Corianin's notes) ... there just isn't a need for anything more.  She could do everything she's done with just that, and half a brain.

[Jonn]

The simple fact is that Verin's history is hidden to us. She makes reference to a series of events that has lead to her role in the present time, and this path has been over 70 years in the making.

 

Moiraine, in less half that time, has done more than most Aes Sedai might accomplish in 100 years of planning. The cryptic status of Verin's character and her actions leads us as readers to believe that in this time (70 years+), she's probably done a lot more than most Aes Sedai in as many years.

 

Verin is an example that there are Aes Sedai from the generation prior who are as dedicated to defeating the Dark One and working towards the fulfillment of the Dragon prophecy as any of the young upstarts like Siuan or Moiraine. She is very clever because she accomplishes her goals without revealing too much to those around her, and this is probably why she is still alive when so many others or her age who may have been stronger have perished.

 

Now, it seems every time I come through here and share my thoughts...I'm being perceived by some to be a crackpot with vulgar and disgustingly complicated, convoluted ideas that can't possibly be taken seriously.

 

"Ooh, why does it have to be so complicated?" "I think it's much simpler than that!"

Things like this.

 

Uhh, listen. You don't own my thoughts or how I enjoy this piece of fiction. If I want to have more fun with my ideas, think of how things COULD be, have the scope of vision I want, I think I'm more than entitled to that. I don't like to be bored with fantasy. I like complexity, dramatic irony. I like things with spice and flair. I think imagination takes as much intelligence as dry logic, sometimes more.

 

If I can think it, it's not out of the realm of possibility, because if I thought of it, chances are there's someone out there who might have thought the same thing.

 

I'm not here to tout my own genius, prove that people's ideas are wrong. I have an idea. It's not that crazy given the context of the novels being a fantasy. There have been much more convoluted things that have happened in these very novels than my idea. You know what though, the novels still maintain their shape, are as captivating as they've ever been and still hold the attention of the many fans of the series.

 

Glimpsing into different times in this series is not out of place. In fact it's one of the major dramatic devices that Jordan has used in the series. Arguably, some of the best sequences in the books have involved this device of alternate worlds, time shifts and visions outside of reality and time.

 

Balefire is an example. Rand's trip in Rhuidean. Egwene and Nynaeve's test to be Accepted. Moiraine's visions in Rhuidean. The ways. Portal stones...

 

There are dozens of instances where these fantastic devices have moved the story and its characters along, and rarely is it called convoluted or unbalanced. Like I said, these elements are fundamental in the world RJ has created.

 

I don't see why all of a sudden when I imply that these elements may have something to do with Verin, one of the most mysterious Aes Sedai in the series; it's overcomplicated, convoluted and unlikely to apply to how she corresponds to the storyline.

 

For the sake of having ideas, expanding the scope of the possibilites, heck just delving deeper into conversation... What would you have against that, Robert?

 

I feel you are being contrary for the sake of being contrary sometimes. Look, to get your point across, you don't always have to shoot someone else's idea down, or amend someone's thoughts for them.

 

The heart of what you were just saying is that Verin didn't have to lie to say what she said.

Let's not go into that whole thing where RJ meant this or that in this context or that context.

 

I agree. I don't think she lied either.

 

I think you might have an arrogant need to make thing simple for crazy people like me.

 

Listen. I don't want that. I've never seen these books like that. I'm not looking for simple. I'm looking for high fantasy and drama. I'm looking for plot twists, epic adventure, a world of wonder and characters, heroes, villains. I'm looking for the hope that lies in knowing that in this world of fantasy, anything is possible. As cliché as that may sound, that's the truth of it for me. And I don't think people would disagree with that. I don't think most people read these books to play logic games or to self-affirm their intelligence.

 

I don't care for people who scoff at my sense of reason when I'm talking about a fantasy series where everything in it comes from the imagination. I think if there was one thing that we should get from reading these books is that imagination is everything.

 

So Robert, you may feel the need to make it simple for me. To explain. Don't. You just don't have to. Know why?

 

It's already quite simple to me the way I think of it. If it's too complicated for you to grasp. Well, I'm sorry, there isn't much more I can do about that besides repeating myself again.

 

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

Jonn chill out, I always consider everyones opinions...

 

I LOVE YOU, COME HERE *Gives Jonn a big hug*

 

HEY WHERE YOU GOING?!! *Jonn runs away*

 

;D ;D ;D