S3E4 - The Road to the Spear

[Mailman]

  22 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Thanks for the explanations, everybody.

 

What really confused me, if I get right down to it, was the furthest-back thing with the woman who would become Lanfear because at that point, Rand's visions should be of Lews Therin, not an Aiel (unless my understanding of the Metaphysics of Reincarnation is completely wrong, in which case the story has failed the coherency test).

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Rand does not have to be LTT's relative. It's his soul reborn not a direct blood line.

The visions are bloodline.

Edited 22 hours ago by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  22 hours ago, Mailman said:

Rand does not have to be LTT's relative. It's his soul reborn not a direct blood line.

The visions are bloodline.

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There shouldn't be a difference based on the broad way the Metaphysics of Reincarnation were explained.

[Mailman]

I'm not sure of what you speak.

LTT and Rands ancestor in the AoL are not the same soul and they are not related.

LTT and Rand are the same soul.

The person with Lanfear is Rands blood relative.

 

Reincarnation is not limited to your direct bloodline to the best of my knowledge.

Edited 21 hours ago by Mailman

[Agitel]

  21 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

There shouldn't be a difference based on the broad way the Metaphysics of Reincarnation were explained.

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Well, can't remember exactly how the show covers it. To break it down:

 

First, there may be multiple lineages a person has. The Columns are specifically tracing back Rand's Aiel lineage.

 

Second, the visions Rand has in the columns are not his prior lives or incarnations. He is just experiencing events through the eyes of his ancestors. But these were different people and different souls. 

 

Third, Rand has no known blood relation to Lews Therin. Lews Therin was his most recent prior life, his most recent incarnation before Rand al'Thor. But the cycle of reincarnation is not tied to blood ancestry at all. One can reincarnate into someone who you have no blood relation with. 

 

The numbering wasn't meant to be presented in an abrasive way. Sorry if it comes across as such. 

 

Edit: And sorry if my phrasing in my last post was obscure or confusing. When I wrote "Rand lives as..." I didn't mean that to imply it was his prior life. I was just trying to capture that he isn't just witnessing events as an external watcher, but he is experiencing that event as his ancestor, with all their emotions and investment. But my phrasing could be confusing when reincarnation is such a key part of this world. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Agitel

[DigificWriter]

  21 hours ago, Agitel said:

the cycle of reincarnation is not tied to blood ancestry at all. One can reincarnate into someone who you have no blood relation with. 

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Which is something that the show should have clarified and didn't... hence the confusion.

 

The explanations that you and others have provided have helped lessen that confusion a bit, so thank you.

 

 

Edited 21 hours ago by DigificWriter

[Jaysen Gore]

The other thing I'd toss out there is a reminder that LTT's genetic lineage was completely ended during the Breaking. So there is no way for anyone descending from LTT to exist in today's world - he had no surviving children.

[Mirefox]

I think it is important to also consider that what you are seeing is a history of the Aiel.  While Rand is tied to that, this pertains to the Aiel more than it does the Dragon.

[DigificWriter]

Confusion aside, I really did like the presentation of what they showed us, both with Rand and Moiraine's parallel yet different experiences. I'm still not entirely sure how what we learned about the Aiel and the Tuathaon either justifies or explains the current attitudes of the former towards the latter or why Rhuarc calls the latter "the Lost Ones", though.

 

I didn't really talk about this anywhere, but after Episode 3, I started to think that the orb that we saw Moiraine channeling through in the Trailers - which LezbiNerdy had been calling the "Choden Ball" - might end up being the Sakarnen, so having this episode confirm that private theory was nice.

 

Even though both Moiraine and Rand were told not to speak about what they experienced, spoken words from the Trailers indicates that the former isn't going to heed that admonition, and it'll be interesting to see what the fallout is.

 

I also can't wait to find out the actual context of the abovementioned scenes of Moiraine using the Sakarnen.

Edited 19 hours ago by DigificWriter

[Jaysen Gore]

  19 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Confusion aside, I really did like the presentation of what they showed us, both with Rand and Moiraine's parallel yet different experiences. I'm still not entirely sure how what we learned about the Aiel and the Tuathaon either justifies or explains the current attitudes of the former towards the latter or why Rhuarc calls the latter "the Lost Ones", though.

 

I didn't really talk about this anywhere, but after Episode 3, I started to think that the orb that we saw Moiraine channeling through in the Trailers - which LezbiNerdy had been calling the "Choden Ball" - might end up being the Sakarnen, so having this episode confirm that private theory was nice.

 

Even though both Moiraine and Rand were told not to speak about what they experienced, spoken words from the Trailers indicates that the former isn't going to heed that admonition, and it'll be interesting to see what the fallout is.

 

I also can't wait to find out the actual context of the abovementioned scenes of Moiraine using the Sakarnen.

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Yes, and a speculation of mine (MAJOR BOOK / SERIES SPOILERS?) is that:

  Reveal hidden contents

her possession of the Sarkanen will replace the bracelet with something of a lot more power that will enable her to survive her sojourn with the Finn. And at the same time remove it from the board until the Last Battle

 

[DigificWriter]

  19 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Yes, and a speculation of mine (MAJOR BOOK / SERIES SPOILERS?) is that:

  Reveal hidden contents

her possession of the Sarkanen will replace the bracelet with something of a lot more power that will enable her to survive her sojourn with the Finn. And at the same time remove it from the board until the Last Battle

 

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Your speculation is really only going to work if the show doesn't make Moiraine's book fate permanent, which now seems more of a possibility to me than it had previously.

[Turin Turambar]

  19 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Yes, and a speculation of mine (MAJOR BOOK / SERIES SPOILERS?) is that:

  Reveal hidden contents

her possession of the Sarkanen will replace the bracelet with something of a lot more power that will enable her to survive her sojourn with the Finn. And at the same time remove it from the board until the Last Battle

 

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They are going to need it before the last battle...

[king of nowhere]

  21 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Which is something that the show should have clarified and didn't... hence the confusion.

 

 

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i don't see much room for confusion. many people die without children. whole families are erased. meanwhile, with growing number of generations everyone is related to everyone else if we move back far enough.

so the idea that blood relation would be needed for reincarnation wouldn't work.

  19 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Confusion aside, I really did like the presentation of what they showed us, both with Rand and Moiraine's parallel yet different experiences. I'm still not entirely sure how what we learned about the Aiel and the Tuathaon either justifies or explains the current attitudes of the former towards the latter or why Rhuarc calls the latter "the Lost Ones", though.

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it doesn't justify anything. any sane person would think nothing of an oath your ancestors made 3000 years ago.

but those are aiel. they are the definition of honor before reason.

[Mirefox]

  19 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Confusion aside, I really did like the presentation of what they showed us, both with Rand and Moiraine's parallel yet different experiences. I'm still not entirely sure how what we learned about the Aiel and the Tuathaon either justifies or explains the current attitudes of the former towards the latter or why Rhuarc calls the latter "the Lost Ones", though.

 

I didn't really talk about this anywhere, but after Episode 3, I started to think that the orb that we saw Moiraine channeling through in the Trailers - which LezbiNerdy had been calling the "Choden Ball" - might end up being the Sakarnen, so having this episode confirm that private theory was nice.

 

Even though both Moiraine and Rand were told not to speak about what they experienced, spoken words from the Trailers indicates that the former isn't going to heed that admonition, and it'll be interesting to see what the fallout is.

 

I also can't wait to find out the actual context of the abovementioned scenes of Moiraine using the Sakarnen.

Expand  

I forget, have we been given the words of the Aiel prophecy in this show?

[Agitel]

The Aiel have long forgotten the reason for their breakup with the Tuatha'an, at least those who aren't clan chiefs and wise ones. However, the original division was because the Tuatha'an abandoned their oaths to the Aes Sedai to transport certain things to safety. They became "lost" in this way. The Aiel also have a strong warrior culture, and don't really understand the pacifism of the Tuatha'an. Still, the Tuatha'an are one of the few people the Aiel let cross the Wastes to the nations on the other side unmolested. They don't antagonize them. 

 

At least,  it is very strongly taboo to bother them. 

[DigificWriter]

I wanted to mention something here that I just talked about in a comment on LezbiNerdy's most recent video breaking down this episode:

 

Although they both go unnamed onscreen, the WoT Show Fandom Wiki found at wheeloftime.fandom.com (not to be confused with the WoT Book Fandom Wiki found at wot.fandom.com) identifies the last two 'Randcestors' that we see as Rhodric (the one to whom Latra entrusts the Sakarnen and the one who swears the oath that the Aiel will always follow the Way of the Leaf) and Charn (the one who talks with the woman who will become Lanfear), which means that whlist the events that Rand experiences are from the books, the identities of some of the individuals who originally lived those events have been altered for the show.

[Agitel]

  18 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

it doesn't justify anything. any sane person would think nothing of an oath your ancestors made 3000 years ago.

but those are aiel. they are the definition of honor before reason.

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3000+ years goes beyond the limits of believability, I think (though they get rather vivid reminders through the Columns), but we today are also in a much more individualistic culture. Certainly throughout history people have seen obligations and shared responsibilities across time and a people. 

[Agitel]

I do wonder about the reduction of sa'angreal for the show. 

 

Full series book spoilers ahoy:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

In particular, we see Rand destroy the male access key on top of Dragonmount. And we see Rand use Callandor's flaw to trap Moridin after that point. Seems like we have to sacrifice one plot point or the other. I really hope they have Rand destroy "Callandor" on Dragonmount. I feel like that is so essential to his arc, and realizing he doesn't need the raw power, and the rejection of that temptation and what he was going to do with it. The plot point with Moridin, while significant, is just a plot beat and not absolutely essential to Rand's arc. Okay, there is the epilogue, and I suppose that link ties into theories regarding it, but it isn't absolutely necessary to get the point across in the show if they keep that epilogue change. I'd hate to see them keep Callandor. I know they can still have the same messaging, but him breaking the access key is just such a symbolic moment for the whole arc. 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

  23 hours ago, Mailman said:

Probably the only thing I would have changed is I would not have had Rand looking back at Muridin. The only way is forward by stepping back in time. He could see his face as he drew level and stepped past.

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I think it had value because it literally showed that some Aiel could not move past a certain discovery, and they become stuck. It's foreshadowing.

[Jaysen Gore]

  16 hours ago, Agitel said:

 

3000+ years goes beyond the limits of believability, I think (though they get rather vivid reminders through the Columns), but we today are also in a much more individualistic culture. Certainly throughout history people have seen obligations and shared responsibilities across time and a people. 

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Not to point too fine a point of this, but many of the Judeo-Christian religious vows have origins almost as long. Imagine what were to happen to a shame based culture like Japan had all of their ancestors sworn an oath to uphold the 10 commandments, and then to become a leader of men, every feudal lord needed to find out they were breaking those oaths as samurai.

 

Western society is guilt based, not shame based, and so our frame of reference for this kind of oath violation is really different than the Aiel's.

[DreadLord31]

I appreciate that @DigificWriter found the episode a bit confusing and needed an explanation. But I also think that that is a perfect example of WoTTv’s fatal flaw. Because … 
 

I think that pretty much everyone who loves the books - for the most part loved this episode (I know I did) because it was closest to a beat-for-beat book faithful adaptation of “the trial of Rhuidien”. Plus there were other major nods to book ppl. 
 

Flame and the void. Tam is a blade master. Lan/Rand training. Exposition almost direct from the books. 
Close to scene for scene for scene portrayal of the Aiel’s history. 
 

But the shows past … unfaithfulness … to the books (for the sake of non-readers?) … then for the Tv audience maybe makes this episode a bit of a “whaaat is going on here?” And loses its emotional power that it has for readers. 
 

Like @DigificWriter brought up - what is the show’s metaphysics of reincarnation? And then a bunch of book readers gave book explanations. The truth is… the show has sucked at metaphysics and logical consistency with it. Going all the way back to S1 E1 opening lines where they said “The Dragon Reborn could be reborn as a girl.”  No. Core to the whole story is the Dragon was a male Aes Sedai and the male half of the OP is tainted so the Dragon Reborn goes insane while he is suppose to save the world. 
 

Show metaphysics of the halves of the OP. Of reincarnation. Of the dagger and Shadar Logoth. Are not very clear at all. 
 

That being said… as a book fan… this is the best fantasy episode of Tv I’ve ever seen. Makes me so happy and angry at the same time. Happy because “they did it!” And angry because … “why the heck couldn’t you have being ‘doing it’ in the previous 18 episodes?” 
You are capable of bringing us an awesome, book-faithful adaptation. So what we’re doing in S1 and S2? 

[A Memory Of Why]

  19 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Yes, and a speculation of mine (MAJOR BOOK / SERIES SPOILERS?) is that:

  Reveal hidden contents

her possession of the Sarkanen will replace the bracelet with something of a lot more power that will enable her to survive her sojourn with the Finn. And at the same time remove it from the board until the Last Battle

 

Expand  

 

I saw an interview with Raff from the dusty wheel guy where Raff confirms..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Choedan Kal and Voras wand are merged into the sword and orb..

 

[SinisterDeath]

  13 hours ago, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I saw an interview with Raff from the dusty wheel guy where Raff confirms..

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Choedan Kal and Voras wand are merged into the sword and orb..

 

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This honestly doesn't surprise me.

Like, the series was planned as 8 Episodes, and 8 Seasons... But what happens if they are told by Amazon that the 4th or 5th season will be their last?

[A Memory Of Why]

  18 hours ago, Mirefox said:

I forget, have we been given the words of the Aiel prophecy in this show?

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Yeah, episode 2 i think..

 

Avi talking to Moraine and Eggy about prophesies (a remnant of a remnant) and Bair at the end (he shall come from the west).

 

Also in the Rhuidean visions with the AS.

[Agitel]

It should also be remembered that in Book 4 there is still so much that is vague and we don't know, whether lore-wise or from a limited character perspective. 

 

At this point in the books Rand is still channeling very instinctively with very little idea about what he's doing. He can do very little with the One Power consistently. He can't even consistently seize the source to weild it. His terminology for describing what he's doing is all over the place. It's not until the next book he (and therefore the reader) even begins to get a grasp of it, and it still takes multiple books to really flesh a lot out. We do have some insight because we at least know what Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve were taught in the Tower in books 2 and 3, so they have some fundamentals to understand how weaving saidar works, some of which we can apply to Rand. But before they were trained they couldn't see the flows to weave with, or know any specific weaves, or or sense when another woman was channeling. 

 

Reincarnation is also not something that gets fully explained in the books. There's not anything suggesting blood descent, and we do get some additional insight they haven't delved into yet, but the in world belief of the characters in reincarnation is not something they have any actual hard data about. 

 

A lot of what we know which is vague to in world characters has been clarified by Jordan and Sanderson. And people still come on with questions or misunderstandings about balefire, reincarnation, the Ages, the Wheel that we as a community kind of have cultural knowledge about from discussing Jordan's and Sanderson's words (in addition to the books) which feels obvious. 

 

Now all of those details are fun, but they're not necessary for following the plot, so it's not like Jordan made mistakes and forgot to put things into the books. There are just things in world characters don't know but which Jordan has fleshed out as background for his world. 

Edited 13 hours ago by Agitel

[Agitel]

While I appreciated seeing a lot of references in this episode to the Flame and Void and Aiel culture, I did feel like they were kind of sloppily fed in at the last minute rather than built up naturally over the course of multiple seasons (or even just this one season). It's like "oh here, lore. And more lore. And more lore" like rattling off a list. Some of it is hard because you're not in a character's head and need an excuse to talk about it, and Lan and Rand missed their sword training until this season.