Wheel of Time Season 3 - Full Season Discussion

[DigificWriter]

@SinisterDeath @Elder_Haman Making all of the Sisters - including Elaida - who were directly involved in deposing and executing Siuan Darkfriends would be a narratively simplistic decision that alleviates the question of how the 3 Oaths apply (they wouldn't), gives a clearly delineated moral objectivity to those opposing Elaida's actions (even from afar), and makes it very simple for a character like Moiraine to at least temporarily step into any storylines that involve bringing Elaida down one way or another.

 

I'm not necessarily explicitly saying that Rafe and his team did any of this, but don't think that it's entirely inconceivable that they could/might have.

Edited April 23 by DigificWriter

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:00 PM, DigificWriter said:

@SinisterDeath @Elder_Haman Making all of the Sisters - including Elaida - who were directly involved in deposing and executing Siuan Darkfriends would be a narratively simplistic decision that alleviates the question of how the 3 Oaths apply (they wouldn't), gives a clearly delineated moral objectivity to those opposing Elaida's actions (even from afar), and makes it very simple for a character like Moiraine to at least temporarily step into any storylines that involve bringing Elaida down one way or another.

 

I'm not necessarily explicitly saying that Rafe and his team did any of this, but don't think that it's entirely inconceivable that they could have.

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It's not inconceivable. But (a) there's no reason to think they've done this; (b) it would cut against the thematic heart of the books; (c) it would make for far less interesting television; and (d) I would hate it.

[DigificWriter]

@Elder_Haman To each their own.

 

I personally think that there's absolutely a world in which the 'Tower Schism' storyline could work and be compelling, nuanced, and thematically resonant with one side of it representing the Light and the other representing the Shadow.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

But not the characters within it, and the whole point is about the Shadow influencing things. If they could just stand up and take over everything there would not be much of a story going on, imho. Elaida ties herself to the Andor line to help the Light, she takes over the Tower to help the Light, even all the nonsense about building a second higher Amyrlin's Tower is on some level about putting things the way they are meant to be, to help the Light. Making her just Alviarin's +1 at the party undermines all of that and makes Alviarin completely extraneous. It would be akin to making the Children of the Light just all be Darkfriends to make things easier to understand. 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:25 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Elder_Haman To each their own.

 

I personally think that there's absolutely a world in which the 'Tower Schism' storyline could work and be compelling, nuanced, and thematically resonant with one side of it representing the Light and the other representing the Shadow.

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This is how it already is. Making Elaida a darkfriend doesn’t change this at all. All that making her a DF does is simplify things in a way that cuts out the more interesting parts of the Tower Schism and removes all of the nuance from Egwene’s plot. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:31 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

It would be akin to making the Children of the Light just all be Darkfriends to make things easier to understand. 

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Which, from my personal point of view, would be as equally valid a choice as the alternative and still offer avenues for exploring the overall thematic nature of the story.

 

But, again, to each their own.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:37 PM, DigificWriter said:

still offer avenues for exploring the overall thematic nature of the story.

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How? By doing this, you neuter the absolute heart of Jordan’s theme. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

All that making her a DF does is simplify things in a way that cuts out the more interesting parts of the Tower Schism and removes all of the nuance from Egwene’s plot. 

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Genuine question time: would you mind giving me some examples?

 

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:38 PM, Elder_Haman said:

How? By doing this, you neuter the absolute heart of Jordan’s theme. 

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I think the degree to which this is true depends on what you think Jordan's thematic aims are/were (which is a subject I have no real position on given that I didn't like the WoT books that I've read).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Genuine question time: would you mind giving me some examples?

 

 

I think the degree to which this is true depends on what you think Jordan's thematic aims are/were (which is a subject I have no real position on given that I didn't like the WoT books that I've read).

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I forgot that you haven’t read the books. 
 

Here is the overarching theme:

Absolute evil exists. Absolute good exists. But while these things exist, they almost NEVER exist independently of one another.

 

Thus, wherever an evil institution exists, you will find some good in it. The same for people. 
 

When the Tower falls, it falls not because the Dark One commanded or instigated it. It falls because of one ‘good’ woman’s arrogance, vanity and pride. And when the Tower is ultimately rebuilt, it is facilitated — in no small measure — because of the Dark One’s minions and their schemes. 
 

The same is true of the Children of the Light. They are devoted to good, but are full of self-righteous people serving themselves and their own ambitions. When they are ultimately rebuilt, it is because of the choices of those who turned to the Dark. 
 

Rand’s ultimate victory is not just about good triumphing over evil. It’s about recognizing that evil must be permitted to exist in order for good to exist. 
 

You can’t just have generic bad guys and keep with this theme.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

I think the degree to which this is true depends on what you think Jordan's thematic aims are/were (which is a subject I have no real position on given that I didn't like the WoT books that I've read).

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From my understanding, Jordan had a peculiar view on what was considered Ultimately Good and what was Ultimate Evil. He was pretty on the nose about it in the wheel of time. 

The Creator was Ultimate Good, and the Dark One was Ultimate Evil.

 

He was also well versed on historical Dictators/Fascists,  both in what they did, why they did what they did, and even what led them to do what they did, and why they believed what they did.

 

I started Reading the Shadow Rising, (Tower Schism) back in the early 2000s. Back then, I read Elaida as Bush Jr.

But had you read it back in 1992, you may well have thought it was about ol' Bill Clinton.

If you read it today, you may well think it's about you know who.

If you were British, you may well have thought it was about Bloody Margaret Thatcher herself! lol

 

Ultimately though, in the books you have the Ultimate Evil  (The Dark One), who has it's minions actively sowing disinformation. Spreading strife, and Division. Making sure all of Humanity cannot come together to Defeat the Ultimate Evil, because they're too busy fighting each other over stupid petty games of power.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:03 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Making sure all of Humanity cannot come together to Defeat the Ultimate Evil, because they're too busy fighting each other over stupid petty games of power.

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Right. And also recognizing that any true “defeat” of “evil” in the mortal world would be evil in and of itself. 
 

Eliminating evil requires eliminating humanity, which — of course — is the Dark One’s ultimate goal. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:58 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Rand’s ultimate victory is not just about good triumphing over evil. It’s about recognizing that evil must be permitted to exist in order for good to exist. 
 

You can’t just have generic bad guys and keep with this theme.

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Everything you said, and to wit; If they Forgo the Dark One as an actual entity that's an actual tangible threat to reality itself, and instead make all of the villains human. Then we've entirely lost the plot. 

 

The Dark One needs to be an ever present threat in the background of the show, causing chaos, strife, and discord. Hence, the purpose of the bad weather that we've barely seen... and the spoiling food...
 

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:08 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Right. And also recognizing that any true “defeat” of “evil” in the mortal world would be evil in and of itself. 
 

Eliminating evil requires eliminating humanity, which — of course — is the Dark One’s ultimate goal. 

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Aye, but that's the end game of the series if you will. 😉 

 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/23/2025 at 3:58 PM, Elder_Haman said:

You can’t just have generic bad guys and keep with this theme.

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Almost no-one who does things that are judged to be evil views those things in that light, because, as Sheev Palpatine said to Anakin, "good is a point of view", and that truism would exist even in a world where Absolute Good and Absolute Evil exist in equal measure (at least in my opinion).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:21 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Almost no-one who does things that are judged to be evil views those things in that light, because, as Sheev Palpatine said to Anakin, "good is a point of view", and that truism would exist even in a world where Absolute Good and Absolute Evil exist in equal measure (at least in my opinion).

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You’re missing the point. It’s not about “point of view”. It’s about making sure that the series doesn’t show institutions as monolithic forces for good or evil. 
 

[first when not last]

  On 4/23/2025 at 5:51 AM, Ralph said:

 

Not at all

 

Everyone but Elaida could easily have believed that Siuan was a Dark friend. She had been accused and sentenced 

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That makes not difference in the books. In the books, if a legit Aes Sedai attempted to "execute" someone falsely accused of being a Darkfriend, she wouldn't be able to do it. The angreal-reinforced oath has to do with what the victimized person is, not with what she has been accused or convicted of.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:21 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Almost no-one who does things that are judged to be evil views those things in that light, because, as Sheev Palpatine said to Anakin, "good is a point of view", and that truism would exist even in a world where Absolute Good and Absolute Evil exist in equal measure (at least in my opinion).

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Yes, but the entire point, is that Book Elaida abhors Darkfriends, the Black Ajah, Shadowspawn, and the Dark One. The believes she is doing the lights work, without realizing she is a pawn for the Dark One & the Black Ajah because she is blinded by her own pursuit of power. (Power Corrupts)

 

IF they make her a Dark Friend in the Show, undermines that entire dynamic, and IMO it will become lazy writing.

Also, they definitely need to lean into the power hungry corrupt Politician that really likes gold things, that wants to demolish part of Tar Valon to build their Palace. The timing could not be more Perfect for this plot line.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:25 PM, Elder_Haman said:

It’s about making sure that the series doesn’t show institutions as monolithic forces for good or evil. 

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I understand; I just don't think making Elaida a Darkfriend automatically or necessarily does that.

[Kaleb]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:25 PM, first when not last said:

That makes not difference in the books. In the books, if a legit Aes Sedai attempted to "execute" someone falsely accused of being a Darkfriend, she wouldn't be able to do it. The angreal-reinforced oath has to do with what the victimized person is, not with what she has been accused or convicted of.

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This is absolutely not true. It's driven home over and over again that the oaths have to do with what the Aes Sedai believes to be true, not what is actually true.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 6:29 AM, DigificWriter said:

none of Elaida's actions in ascending to the Seat actually hold up under scrutiny and about why it's not inconceivable that every person who was complicit in Siuan's deposing and bore witness to/was present for her execution is a Darkfriend.

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This is what you said. Feels like you’re walking it back now?

[Ralph]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:25 PM, first when not last said:

That makes not difference in the books. In the books, if a legit Aes Sedai attempted to "execute" someone falsely accused of being a Darkfriend, she wouldn't be able to do it. The angreal-reinforced oath has to do with what the victimized person is, not with what she has been accused or convicted of.

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It is dependent on whether they believe the accusation

[first when not last]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:29 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Yes, but the entire point, is that Book Elaida abhors Darkfriends, the Black Ajah, Shadowspawn, and the Dark One. The believes she is doing the lights work, without realizing she is a pawn for the Dark One & the Black Ajah because she is blinded by her own pursuit of power. (Power Corrupts)

 

IF they make her a Dark Friend in the Show, undermines that entire dynamic, and IMO it will become lazy writing.

Also, they definitely need to lean into the power hungry corrupt Politician that really likes gold things, that wants to demolish part of Tar Valon to build their Palace. The timing could not be more Perfect for this plot line.

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Couldn't agree more with what you have written here. Agdashloo by the way seems to me to be perfect for the role.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:54 PM, Ralph said:

It is dependent on whether they believe the accusation

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And they are, of course, trained to believe that what the Sitters say is true and correct. 

[Yamezt]

  On 4/23/2025 at 4:25 PM, first when not last said:

That makes not difference in the books. In the books, if a legit Aes Sedai attempted to "execute" someone falsely accused of being a Darkfriend, she wouldn't be able to do it. The angreal-reinforced oath has to do with what the victimized person is, not with what she has been accused or convicted of.

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In TGS, Elaida declared Egwene a darkfriend multiple times during the dinner with the sitters without equivocation depsite it not being true.

 

The final episode of this season actually made me think of that scene. i.e. Amyrlins being falsely acused of being a darkfriend.

 

There was no reason for Elaida to delcare Egwene a darkfriend - Egwene was sure Elaida has no proof (she clearly knew it was false). However, Siuan was still concerned that Elaida may succeed in convicting Egwene as darkfriend. Egwene then agreed only if that happens and she is slate for execution would she seek help to escape.

Edited April 23 by Yamezt

[Sabio]

  On 4/23/2025 at 11:29 PM, Yamezt said:

In TGS, Elaida declared Egwene a darkfriend multiple times during the dinner with the sitters without equivocation depsite it not being true.

 

The final episode of this season actually made me think of that scene. i.e. Amyrlins being falsely acused of being a darkfriend.

 

There was no reason for Elaida to delcare Egwene a darkfriend - Egwene was sure Elaida has no proof (she clearly knew it was false). However, Siuan was still concerned that Elaida may succeed in convicting Egwene as darkfriend. Egwene then agreed only if that happens and she is slate for execution would she seek help to escape.

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Elaida has a very Whitecloak attitude, she is sure that she is 100% right and people who disagree with her must be bad.  Where a Whitecloak uses weapons she just bullies and fuses force of will to do as she wants.  She might truly believe Egwene a DF since Egwene has the nerve not only to oppose her, Siuan advises her, but also she has the nerve to be a rival.

[Morridin]

Hi guys,

 

Been a long time!

Surely I cannot be the only one that doesn’t like/understand some of these insane changes??

First off he goes to Tear before the waste and for me that’s quite a major thing, with that comes the whole Moiraine getting Sammael (where’s Asmodean!) to teach Rand. 
Sammael dead means we’ve now lost one of what I thought one of the most epic battles of the series!

Mat has to go with Rand to the waste where he was hung. I feel they’re going to push Min to Mat not Rand. 
Also, the killing of Siaun!? What the hell!? Will it now be Leanne teaching Egwene? 
I watch it because I love the book series but I honestly believe HBO would’ve been the better option and would e stayed closer to the actual story. 
 

Lastly, they rushed the whole Thom and Elayne thing too.