S3E2:A Question of Crimson - Discussion

[Agitel]

This is the type of stuff that'd get you doing penance on a farm for three years. 

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:04 PM, Agitel said:

 

I get Elder Haman's comments, but come on, basically telling an authority figure that you just used her and are going to ignore what she tells you to do is just what it is to tell someone you don't accept their authority to tell you to stay. 

 

An Accepted does that in the books and she is literally dragged by her ear to the Mistress of Novices for penance and possible switching and kitchen duties for a month, assuming the Aes Sedai doesn't just tie her up with air and/or switch her there with weaves of air. 

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It was a nonsensical comment.  If my kids ever talk to myself or my wife like that, there is at the very least a reprimand.  Acting respectful and acting reverent isn’t merely about following the letter of the law or finding loopholes.  At the very least, everyone should at least be able to agree that she didn’t respect or revere the position of Amyrlin in that moment; whether or not that was within character or their should have been repressions can be debated, I suppose.

[DigificWriter]

I'll concede that agreeing to only follow the rules conditionally comes close to being outright defiant, but Siuan acceding to Egwene's condition wasn't the only option available to her for resolving the situation, which is why I don't see what Egwene did as actually raising to the level of defiance.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:23 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'll concede that agreeing to only follow the rules conditionally comes close to being outright defiant, but Siuan acceding to Egwene's condition wasn't the only option available to her for resolving the situation, which is why I don't see what Egwene did as actually raising to the level of defiance.

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Her tone alone was defiant.  That can matter.

[Agitel]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:23 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'll concede that agreeing to only follow the rules conditionally comes close to being outright defiant, but Siuan acceding to Egwene's condition wasn't the only option available to her for resolving the situation, which is why I don't see what Egwene did as actually raising to the level of defiance.

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Egwene stated a condition for returning for testing, but after the test she told Siuan to F off in so many words and admitted to only using her. 

[Agitel]

The show Tower is obviously much more generous in the liberties it gives its novices and accepted so it's hard to judge, but still. 

 

Edit: For comparison, though, book accepted aren't at liberty to just leave the Tower/Tar Valon of their own accord to do what they want. 

Edited March 21 by Agitel

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/13/2025 at 12:20 PM, zacz1987 said:

How much time was meant to have passed between episode 1 and 2? I was confused how Alanna made it to Emond's Field quicker than Perrin when he took a Waygate.

 

I do feel the show revolves far too much around Tar Valon and the Aes Sedai. Sure they should be in the show but they should not be the main part.

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Alanna took the waygate, Perrin mentions that. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 3/14/2025 at 7:37 PM, Mirefox said:

When Perrin, Loial, and the maidens enter EF, shouldn’t the ogier have freaked people out?  The town was recently ravaged by trollocs and continues to have a trolloc problem and a creature that someone from EF mistook for a trolloc (after having fought them and been chased by them) just strolls down the street and nobody reacts in terror?

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I did feel the book carried this off much much better, with the Aiel and Ogier creating a lot more noise 

[Turin Turambar]

I think maybe the people of EF are a little less shocked by things. They have been dealing with ongoing trollocs attacking them. Not too long ago trollocs were made up thing.  That they are in fact real has likely made them a.little blasé to seeing something unusual. 

[Mailman]

  On 3/23/2025 at 1:17 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I did feel the book carried this off much much better, with the Aiel and Ogier creating a lot more noise 

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  On 3/23/2025 at 2:02 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I think maybe the people of EF are a little less shocked by things. They have been dealing with ongoing trollocs attacking them. Not too long ago trollocs were made up thing.  That they are in fact real has likely made them a.little blasé to seeing something unusual. 

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They may have just thought Burger King was opening a store so no big deal.

[Wassup]

20 years before, the Aiel swept through kingdoms unchecked to Dragonmount and turned back only because they accomplished what they set out to do. Many people should still be alive from that war. They would all be mostly terrified of Aiel. 
 

In season 1, a town saw one Aiel, killed him, and put his body up in a cage out of fear. So, how can two Aiel walk around TV and EF without anyone commenting or freaking out?

[DigificWriter]

At the risk of pendatry, Emond's Field doesn't exist in the show (the village bears the name of the region in which it's located, The Two Rivers), but if you need an explanation for why the presence of two Aiel wouldn't cause fear, I've got two:

1) its been 20 years

2) the impact of the Aiel War likely didn't reach as far as The Two Rivers

[Mailman]

  On 3/24/2025 at 5:29 AM, DigificWriter said:

At the risk of pendatry, Emond's Field doesn't exist in the show (the village bears the name of the region in which it's located, The Two Rivers), but if you need an explanation for why the presence of two Aiel wouldn't cause fear, I've got two:

1) its been 20 years

2) the impact of the Aiel War likely didn't reach as far as The Two Rivers

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I agree that they may not know Aiel on site like they most definitely would in TV. But any outsiders especially armed female ones would attract interest.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/24/2025 at 5:49 AM, Mailman said:

I agree that they may not know Aiel on site like they most definitely would in TV. But any outsiders especially armed female ones would attract interest.

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Not in light of the presence of Whitecloaks and Hunters of the Horn.

 

Also, The Two Rivers wasn't as isolated and insular - even in Season 1 - as Emond's Field was shown to be.

[Mailman]

Female warriors would still be super rare.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/24/2025 at 3:30 AM, Wassup said:

20 years before, the Aiel swept through kingdoms unchecked to Dragonmount and turned back only because they accomplished what they set out to do. Many people should still be alive from that war. They would all be mostly terrified of Aiel. 
 

In season 1, a town saw one Aiel, killed him, and put his body up in a cage out of fear. So, how can two Aiel walk around TV and EF without anyone commenting or freaking out?

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Kingdoms? They basically just wrecked Caihrien chasing after Laman. (Look at the maps) There was a lot of fighting but I think the wetlands overdid the drama of it. That said it was 20 years ago and most people now understand what that was all about. At least people in power. 

That was one example. Who knows the circumstances? Possibly wandered into area already half dead. Plus that was a mining town full of rough folks. That Aiel was killed just as likely out of prejudice as fear. 

Tar Valon is a secure, guarded city. They will have seen Ogier masons and Possibly other Aiel before. Could there be some gossip about it? Yes. Would people gawk? Probably.  Would there be panic in the streets? Doubtful. Same for the Two Rivers.  Well it's a village, but basically  everyone that travels does so armed. Rand and his dad carried bows on their trip from the farm to town before any trollocs showed up. Again there probably would have been some notice but not panic. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I think we have to accept that they cannot fit everything in. Yes they are taking liberties, but that is a given. Leaving things unsaid like the reactions to the Aiel and Loial leaves room for other things like the iconic scene in the following episode. 

 

In the TR, it is more muted where they are at least keeping a low profile where them walking about TV inside the Shining Walls was odd. 

 

I most definitely think they could have done it better but also I don't think it is a main issue. 

 

But certainly doesn't make sense. Any armed warriors would excite comment in the TR, even moreso with the Whitecloaks and trollocs, not less, IMHO. But there is more important stuff to spend screemtime on. Again, IMHO. 

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/16/2025 at 8:07 AM, Turin Turambar said:

Those houses could have done things that could not be forgiven.

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I know I'm late to this conversation (catching up on previous seasons' discussions), but it doesn't matter if they did things that were unforgivable. She had just forgiven them, openly in her court. So she flat out lied. They had a reason for writing it this way, good or bad, but you can't justify it from a character perspective. What Morgase did was unforgivable.

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:49 PM, DigificWriter said:

Take up the 'Star Wars is an adaptation of Arthurian Legend' thing with my Creative Writing teacher (who, as mentioned, also taught High School English), because that's precisely how she described it.

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The fact that your HS English teacher said it doesn't make it true. I heard a lot of very stupid things come out of the mouths of professors in HS and college.

 

Furthermore, George Lucas never claimed that Star Wars was an Arthurian adaptation. He drew inspiration from Arthurian legend, but also from far Eastern religions and modern day politics. (I've also seen ancient history mentioned, but never a specific example of it.) 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 4:07 AM, Fiona_12 said:

She had just forgiven them, openly in her court. So she flat out lied.

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Listen more carefully to what she actually says. She forgave the HOUSES, not the individuals. It’s clear that she cut deals with the people who assumed power. After all, it wasn’t Morgase or her soldiers who did the killing. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 1:59 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Listen more carefully to what she actually says. She forgave the HOUSES, not the individuals. It’s clear that she cut deals with the people who assumed power. After all, it wasn’t Morgase or her soldiers who did the killing. 

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They are the house. The same as she is the throne. It would be considered the same as the royal we.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/5/2025 at 3:07 PM, Mailman said:

They are the house. The same as she is the throne. It would be considered the same as the royal we.

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Only it isn’t. Because she cut a deal. She forgave the Houses because they agreed to remove the existing leadership. 

[Fiona_12]

 

  On 4/5/2025 at 1:59 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Listen more carefully to what she actually says. She forgave the HOUSES, not the individuals. It’s clear that she cut deals with the people who assumed power. After all, it wasn’t Morgase or her soldiers who did the killing. 

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Yes, I know she did. And I can kind of understand your line of thinking, but I can't agree with it because everyone in the House is part of that House, so the implication is they are all forgiven. It's semantics, and very underhanded. Cutting deals with the rest of the members of the House doesn't make it less dishonest. 

 

I can accept a ruthless Morgase, like punishing people when it is necessary for the stability of the kingdom when she would rather show mercy, but I can't accept a dishonest Morgase.

Edited April 5 by Fiona_12

[Fiona_12]

  On 3/21/2025 at 8:23 PM, DigificWriter said:

I'll concede that agreeing to only follow the rules conditionally comes close to being outright defiant, but Siuan acceding to Egwene's condition wasn't the only option available to her for resolving the situation, which is why I don't see what Egwene did as actually raising to the level of defiance.

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How else do you think Siuan could have handled it, given her goal was to keep Egwene in the Tower because she didn't want to lose such a powerful channeler? I'm just curious. It's established in S2 that novices can't just leave the Tower whenever they want. Furthermore, Siuan was very direct in her statement to Elayne that she expected to see her back in novice white the next day. There is absolutely no reason to assume she didn't expect the same of Egwene. (I can't remember what she wanted to talk to Nyaneave and Egwene about privately in that scene.)

 

Egwene knew what was expected of her once she passed the Accepted test, which is the same thing that is expected of all Accepted. Siuan doesn't have to say, "You are not permitted to leave" for Egwene's behavior to amount to defiance.

[Samt]

  On 4/5/2025 at 6:45 PM, Fiona_12 said:

 

 

Yes, I know she did. And I can kind of understand your line of thinking, but I can't agree with it because everyone in the House is part of that House, so the implication is they are all forgiven. It's semantics, and very underhanded. Cutting deals with the rest of the members of the House doesn't make it less dishonest. 

 

I can accept a ruthless Morgase, like punishing people when it is necessary for the stability of the kingdom when she would rather show mercy, but I can't accept a dishonest Morgase.

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It’s not unprecedented that a monarch might execute the head of a noble house and make peace with the heir of that house.  Considering that the heir is likely the child or close relative of the previous head of the household, the forgiveness is significant.  Familial guilt is somewhat foreign to modern, western sensibilities, but looms large in many historical and some modern cultures.  The fact that all of the descendants and relatives of the guilty party are not considered to bear that guilt is meaningful forgiveness in this context.  Even for the executed person, it allows for the ability to leave a legacy that can carry on the name and influence and could constitute a real negotiating point in a peace deal.

 

That said, I think that the question is more the degree to which this was a betrayal of trust on Morgase’s part.  Did the heads of households negotiate a deal that they understood would mean their own deaths because it would allow their families to survive? Or were they lead to believe that they would be allowed to live and then deceived?

Edited April 5 by Samt