Season 3 Sneak Peek

[DojoToad]

  On 2/24/2025 at 7:46 PM, Turin Turambar said:

If I ain't playing mafia, I might as well "discuss" the show here.

 

I think the BA not killing anyone while they were stunned was just because their priority was escape. I also don't think they were really out very long. Granted killing with the power should be quick and easy and they didn't exactly run out.

 

I'm gonna go with...

  Reveal hidden contents

PLOT ARMOUR 

 

Expand  

The only reasonable explanation so far...

[LTL]

  On 2/25/2025 at 12:07 PM, Mailman said:

Nothing said that the Dragon had to be Aiel. That is why she questioned Nynaeve on if any of the boys were born outside the Two Rivers. You have 3 boys born at nearly the exact same time (when because of Gitaras foretelling the date is your best bit of concrete knowledge) why would you risk leaving 2 of them behind. Especially after all three are targeted by the shadowspawn. He is also only half Aiel the other half is Andoran.

Expand  

We could go back and forth on this and your next answer but it would be way OT. The point is that you are likely prepared to give the benefit of the doubt and make excuses or find reasons for most unrealistic book stuff, while nitpicking faults with the show that most people may not even find unrealistic at all. There are many flaws with the show but this scene is good TV that is not unreasonable in terms of realism compared to any fantasy/sci-fi/action tv show that I've seen. If there is not a single fantasy/sci-fi/action show/movie in which the level of realism meets your demands then that is unfortunate, it seems these genres are not for you on screen!

[Mailman]

  On 2/25/2025 at 12:44 PM, LTL said:

We could go back and forth on this and your next answer but it would be way OT. The point is that you are likely prepared to give the benefit of the doubt and make excuses or find reasons for most unrealistic book stuff, while nitpicking faults with the show that most people may not even find unrealistic at all. There are many flaws with the show but this scene is good TV that is not unreasonable in terms of realism compared to any fantasy/sci-fi/action tv show that I've seen. If there is not a single fantasy/sci-fi/action show/movie in which the level of realism meets your demands then that is unfortunate, it seems these genres are not for you on screen!

Expand  

Again if you want to enjoy the spectacle and not think about how the characters react then thats fine. I like things to make sense within the world that has been built. If you want the sitters and sisters of the tower to freeze in the face of danger and be incompetent with the power then that's the showrunner choice ( i dont like it but can accept it). 

 

However I think what we will see is the level of competence and power bend to the requirements of the story rather than having it be consistent to the actual character.

We have already seen this in show from Moiraine when she is unable to defeat a Fade and around 30 trollocs yet at the end of season 2 is able to destroy 18 ships that have Damane on board.

 

Yes we could go back and forth and I am happy to do so especially if it makes me realise an issue I have missed. And all I have done is provide factual responses to the things that you consider issues and I think where either explained in world or in the case of Mantherens queen potentially poor writing.

Edited February 25 by Mailman

[LTL]

  On 2/25/2025 at 1:11 PM, Mailman said:

However I think what we will see is the level of competence and power bend to the requirements of the story rather than having it be consistent to the actual character.

Expand  

I don't necessarily agree with respect to this scene but in general I completely agree with this and it's something you will probably have to turn a bit of a blind eye to if you want to enjoy the show. Like you, I hope that they don't push it too far and would like to see it be consistent, but I don't think it will be if they see an opportunity to film a cool scene that just needs a bit of tweaking to character power to work as they want.

 

On the back and forth, I don't think it would be too productive and it's not relevant to this sneak peek but the key points would be that Moiraine knows the dragonmount prophecy, multiple people see Rand and think he's an Aiel in the book, he has the red hair that is rare outside the Aiel, and yet Moiraine shows no sign of favouring him being the dragon over the other 2 for most of book 1. It should have been immediately clear to her, and sure she could bring the others along "just in case" or you could argue that she could favour him but we don't read through her eyes so we don't find out, but I think it's probably just a mistake due to not having the whole story when starting writing. I remember Egwene running with the Aiel and them gaining respect for her for keeping up but I couldn't give you a page and a quote. 

 

Fwiw, I really liked the books for being generally good in terms of keeping the rules of the world consistent and realism within the world, and I also don't like it when the show deviates from that too much. I just think a more balanced view on the book and show would recognise that the books have plenty of flaws in this regard but can be enjoyed immensely despite that, and the show has even more flaws in this regard but again can be enjoyed despite that. It's simply a question of degree and it is fine to draw the line somewhere between the book and show in terms of what you're ok with, but there doesn't seem to be the realisation on your part that this is what you're doing. You argue very much as if everything the show does is totally wrong and a deviation from realism is a disaster that would never have happened in the books, and I don't think that's a fair reflection of reality.

[king of nowhere]

  On 2/25/2025 at 6:14 AM, Mailman said:

Okay thats just not right.

The trainable channelers can be drawn from every single age group from approx  14 years old till death.

You can only draw inborn spark users from around 14 to maybe 20 to 21 age group at a stretch.

So out of 1000 Ashman you have maybe 100 to 150  at most who are in the target age group and only 20% of those would have the spark inborn. So the true number is maybe 20 to 30. 

 

So if those 30 say had not gone to the Black Tower 22 of those would have died from power complications leaving only 8 to be neutralized by the Reds.

Expand  

You are right that men with the spark don't get old.

But you are miscalculating the demographics of a preindustrial society, even one with oddly effective healtcare. 

If you remove children, as they are too young to have manifested channeling, those between 14 to 21 years of age may well be over 20% of the total, maybe even 30%. 

 

Anyway, the greater point is that the reds we see are sitting in tar valon, not chasing channelers. This strongly sabotages their effectiveness.

The tower divisions also sabotage it; i wouldn't put it past the blue ajah to not share news of male channelers from their own spy network simply to make the reds look bad

 

Regarding dumai wells, the wise ones are also mot accustomed to fighting with the power. And they were far, which reduces their effectiveness.

Regarding the raid on tar valon, it was a small military unit surrounded and outnumbered in enemy territory; a well organized military would have rebuffed them hard.

 

Oh, and i absolutely agree your main point that the respective power and competence are bent for story sake. It's happened already. Some of that, like nynaeve struggling with her block, is in the book.

Just saying that for the specific scene, aes sedai giving a poor show is not unexpected

Edited February 25 by king of nowhere

[Asmasur]

  On 2/25/2025 at 1:11 PM, Mailman said:

We have already seen this in show from Moiraine when she is unable to defeat a Fade and around 30 trollocs yet at the end of season 2 is able to destroy 18 ships that have Damane on board.

Expand  

When is Moiraine unable to defeat a Fade and 30 trollocs? Before being struck by the Trolloc blade she and Lan took care of those trollocs quite easily.  

 

I didn’t see 18 ships having Damane on board. Suroth’s ship had 8 Damane and they were occupied with shielding Rand. Perhaps that is why they couldn’t deflect Moiraine’s attack. These are quite logical choices by the show. 

[expat]

  On 2/25/2025 at 5:52 AM, Mailman said:

You do realise that you are agreeing almost point for point the things I have been arguing for while you claim I have it backwards.

Expand  

Your statement was: "I have no objection to people enjoying shows purely for the spectacle or action sequences."  My point was that nobody enjoys the show purely for the action sequences, but well-done action sequences are a necessary component to the show. Which is why I think your statement was backwards.  Since you like nothing about the show, of course you didn't like the action sequence, and have spent the entire thread knocking it through its lack of realism without acknowledging that lack of realism is a hallmark of almost all action sequences.

 

We agree that well-done writing and acting are also necessary components to the show.  I'm glad we have found common ground.

[expat]

  On 2/25/2025 at 6:14 AM, Mailman said:

Okay thats just not right.

The trainable channelers can be drawn from every single age group from approx  14 years old till death.

You can only draw inborn spark users from around 14 to maybe 20 to 21 age group at a stretch.

So out of 1000 Ashman you have maybe 100 to 150  at most who are in the target age group and only 20% of those would have the spark inborn. So the true number is maybe 20 to 30. 

 

So if those 30 say had not gone to the Black Tower 22 of those would have died from power complications leaving only 8 to be neutralized by the Reds.

Expand  

The Seanchan tested every young girl at (IIRC?) 14.  They were not finding 80 years old folks like the rebel AS were.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 2/25/2025 at 12:07 PM, Mailman said:

Nothing said that the Dragon had to be Aiel. That is why she questioned Nynaeve on if any of the boys were born outside the Two Rivers. You have 3 boys born at nearly the exact same time (when because of Gitaras foretelling the date is your best bit of concrete knowledge) why would you risk leaving 2 of them behind. Especially after all three are targeted by the shadowspawn. He is also only half Aiel the other half is Andoran.

 

Egwene initially travels alongside Moiraine with the Aiel and also during the initial stages they have Kaderes wagons with them. The Aiel also do not travel at maximum speed all the time. They then always travel with the wagons until they return to the wetlands. I think there are always horses with them as Moiraine and Lan are either walking with the wise ones or mounted.

 

I never liked the OP death channeler moments sure maybe you could draw a little too much and could do an extra kick but to wipe out every enemy channeler across an army was bad. The only thing that could explain it is the unreliable narrator. It's possible in the 1000 years since that her counterattack has been exaggerated in handed down stories.

Expand  

See what you've done here is make allowances for the characters actions abilities or lack thereof.

The prophecy doesn't come right out and say the Dragon will be an Aiel. It isn't the most difficult riddle to solve with the whole "maiden wedded to no man", and "of the ancient blood" lines. That's kind of a different discussion though. 

The Aiel have lived in one of the harshest environments on the planet for millennia and have adapted to it.  Egwene has lived in a rural river village where she was a inn keeper's daughter and lived a pretty privileged life. After her adventures and a month in the waste she has adapted to the conditions as well as people who lived there all their lives. I don't think so, but it is Egwene so it is just a demonstration of her greatness. 

"Fake news", that's the explanation for why it is okay? Or it didn't really even happen like that. No one knows foe sure so sure but it is still making allowance for something you find unbelievable. 

 

 

[Wassup]

  On 2/25/2025 at 3:00 PM, Asmasur said:

When is Moiraine unable to defeat a Fade and 30 trollocs? Before being struck by the Trolloc blade she and Lan took care of those trollocs quite easily.  

 

I didn’t see 18 ships having Damane on board. Suroth’s ship had 8 Damane and they were occupied with shielding Rand. Perhaps that is why they couldn’t deflect Moiraine’s attack. These are quite logical choices by the show. 

Expand  

 

The point with the Damane on the ships should also be noted they would only do what they were instructed to do.  If they were not instructed to defend the ships but only to shield Rand, they would not sway from that task.  They were focused on their assigned task and may have been pressed hard to do it (my speculation).

 

 

Also, to the point of power and competence being bent for the story, we need look no further than the battle on the tower top in S2E8.  Compare what Ishy was doing to the attacks Rand had to deflect (instinctively at that) during his initial encounters with the Forsaken.  There were giant walls of fire thrown at him, the air around him turned to water, excruciating pain felt throughout his body, lightning called down upon him, etc.

 

Ishy just throws some small fire balls or something.  He had to lose and they had not put Rand in a position to fight back.

Edited February 25 by Wassup

[Elder_Haman]

My big takeaway from this discussion is that there is near universal agreement that this sneak peek was of pretty solid entertainment value and that it has inspired a sense of optimism and anticipation for the series. 
 

In that sense, mission accomplished!

[Wassup]

Lots of views since the release.  Lots of videos released by content creators to keep/build up hype.  

 

Production looks like the best of the three seasons.  Looks like it is trending up.

 

I actually liked what I saw the first time I watched it as opposed to usually being mad as a book reader and having to rewatch to like it.  Hopefully this is how I get to view all of S3.

[Samt]

  On 2/25/2025 at 12:08 AM, Mailman said:

Not exactly. In your analogy they are 20 ft because of the power but they would not be able to play any offence with their height unless they are attacked because of the oaths.

 

The Tower Aes Sedai at Dumai wells held their own against a vastly larger number of wise ones.

 

The Seachan channelers did absolutely nothing except use the power for battle they had no other objective in life other than preperation for fighting. And again we never have a direct head to head between the Aes Sedai and the Damane that was not heavily tilted in one sides favour or individual captures. (minimal sky lights and such I am not counting).

 

When in the books are the Aes Sedai useless in battle and humiliated. 

 

The Seachan attack on the Tower is a surprise attack from a completely unexpected enemy from a completely unexpected vector designed to use overwhelming force to simply capture channelers and then flee.

The Sharan attack was an ambush against a tired force behind the lines. They acquitted themselves well in the final battle against the same force only being backed down when Demandred in a full circle using a Sa'Angreal used balefire to break them.

 

This assertion that seems to have crept into the argument that the Aes Sedai in the books were completely useless i find confusing.

Expand  

It’s not a perfect analogy, but I still like it.  It’s not really intended to be just about combat skills.  The AES Sedai are just generally complacent in their one power skills and not motivated to develop new weaves and generally improve their power.

[DreadLord31]

  On 2/24/2025 at 7:46 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I think the BA not killing anyone while they were stunned was just because their priority was escape.

Expand  

This is mostly correct, clearly. And is an important point that has been lost in this discussion of the realism of the battle. 
 

When they’re going to the docks to escape the city there is a very important line from Liandrin. She says, “Did you get it?”  Referring to an item from the 13th depository. Think about the significance of that line for this whole scene! 

[Mailman]

  On 2/25/2025 at 3:20 PM, expat said:

The Seanchan tested every young girl at (IIRC?) 14.  They were not finding 80 years old folks like the rebel AS were.

Expand  

Yes the seachan tested all girls at 14. It has nothing to do with the Black Tower though as no one ever recruited for them so all men with the ability to learn remained in the population for ever. So when Black tower recruitment began they could test the whole population.

 

Seachan was also a 100% unified continent with a Monarchy\dictator that was in charge of all the channelers. Unlike Randland which was many small divisions.

 

If you remember the story in the books of the Seachan Royal family occasionally for cruel entertainment putting the collar on men at court chained to a Sul'Damane and most of the time nothing happened but occasionally both would die screaming that was collaring a man who could learn.

Edited February 26 by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 2/25/2025 at 4:19 PM, Turin Turambar said:

See what you've done here is make allowances for the characters actions abilities or lack thereof.

The prophecy doesn't come right out and say the Dragon will be an Aiel. It isn't the most difficult riddle to solve with the whole "maiden wedded to no man", and "of the ancient blood" lines. That's kind of a different discussion though. 

The Aiel have lived in one of the harshest environments on the planet for millennia and have adapted to it.  Egwene has lived in a rural river village where she was a inn keeper's daughter and lived a pretty privileged life. After her adventures and a month in the waste she has adapted to the conditions as well as people who lived there all their lives. I don't think so, but it is Egwene so it is just a demonstration of her greatness. 

"Fake news", that's the explanation for why it is okay? Or it didn't really even happen like that. No one knows foe sure so sure but it is still making allowance for something you find unbelievable. 

 

 

Expand  

No it's not.

If Moiraine could only take one of the boys it would probably have been Rand. However all 3 boys were attacked specifically by the shadowspawn. Why on earth would she take the risk and not take all 3.

 

I don't think we ever get the story from Moiraines perspective in the first book except during the final page. So we never get her inner monologue as to her beliefs.

 

She continued to question Nynaeve when she arrived in Baerlon about if any of them were born outside. So could still not be 100% sure she had the right person until she could have that certainty it is not only prudent to retain all three but not doing so would be stupid.

 

In the books she plays her cards close to the chest never mentioning the Dragon to them at all and her reasoning for taking them to the eye is putting 3 tav'veren at a crucial place in order to hopefully effect the outcome. 

 

They are also separated after Baerleron and only reunite at the near same time as the warning in regards to the eye is revelaed.

 

Expecting Moiraine of the books to solely bank on what could be interpreted as young woman not married is insane. Aiel maidens were forbidden from combat as well so why you would assume that one of them would give birth on the mountain is a big question.

Edited February 26 by Mailman

[Mailman]

  On 2/25/2025 at 4:34 PM, Elder_Haman said:

My big takeaway from this discussion is that there is near universal agreement that this sneak peek was of pretty solid entertainment value and that it has inspired a sense of optimism and anticipation for the series. 
 

In that sense, mission accomplished!

Expand  

I agree from the comments in here and on the youtube comments it seems to be being received very well. I do wonder if that is because the show has completely lost those that don't like the first 2 seasons and they have officially tuned out. No way to tell yet.

 

I just think it could have been so much better. The CGI was great especially in regards to power usage. Fleetwood has exceptional presence.

 

To see sitters reduced to spectators just feels so wrong to me. These are woman that have been forged by passage through the 3 rings had to complete the 100 weave challenge to demonstrate their control of the power under extreme duress in the knowledge that you can die inside those challenges. Have decades and centuries of experience. It just feels wrong.

Edited February 26 by Mailman

[Turin Turambar]

  On 2/26/2025 at 12:38 AM, Mailman said:

No it's not.

If Moiraine could only take one of the boys it would probably have been Rand. However all 3 boys were attacked specifically by the shadowspawn. Why on earth would she take the risk and not take all 3.

 

I don't think we ever get the story from Moiraines perspective in the first book except during the final page. So we never get her inner monologue as to her beliefs.

 

She continued to question Nynaeve when she arrived in Baerlon about if any of them were born outside. So could still not be 100% sure she had the right person until she could have that certainty it is not only prudent to retain all three but not doing so would be stupid.

 

In the books she plays her cards close to the chest never mentioning the Dragon to them at all and her reasoning for taking them to the eye is putting 3 tav'veren at a crucial place in order to hopefully effect the outcome. 

 

They are also separated after Baerleron and only reunite at the near same time as the warning in regards to the eye is revelaed.

 

Expecting Moiraine of the books to solely bank on what could be interpreted as young woman not married is insane. Aiel maidens were forbidden from combat as well so why you would assume that one of them would give birth on the mountain is a big question.

Expand  

I don't think we were discussing if it was wise to take all 3 ta'veren. It was if it should have been easy to decipher that the Dragon would be Aiel from the prophecy.  The two lines in the prophecy were "from the ancient blood", and "born of a maiden wed to no man". Granted there seems to have been limited information gathering done on the Aiel (itself a failure of the tower) but through the breaking,  the Aiel are one of few if not the only people that maintain the same location and structure and not intermingle much. Therefore they should have been a prime candidate for research.  Doing that research would have quickly resulted in learning maidens of the spear are said to be wed to the spear and cannot wed without giving up the spear.  The birth on dragonmount part didn't mean they had to be in combat, it could have been a  random incident as fantasy book prophecy fulfillment frequently occurs that way.

[Turin Turambar]

As to the Sitters, I'm wondering how long it had been since they did those tests. I've never seen where any Aes Sedai undergoes ongoing training or recertification. Skills  diminish over time.  I trained to do things when I was younger. I doubt that I would be able to do them now even if my life defended on it. 

[Wassup]

  On 2/26/2025 at 1:28 AM, Mailman said:

...

To see sitters reduced to spectators just feels so wrong to me. These are woman that have been forged by passage through the 3 rings had to complete the 100 weave challenge to demonstrate their control of the power under extreme duress in the knowledge that you can die inside those challenges. Have decades and centuries of experience. It just feels wrong.

Expand  

 

The sitters were generally selected based on strength in the power, were they not.  AS created a culture where you were automatically obsequious to those who were stronger in the power regardless of any ability or skill you had otherwise.  The sitters were most likely in their position to some political skill and sheer strength with the OP.  Age may have been a factor as well.

 

Even though they all had to pass the same challenges to earn the shawl, that would have been decades in the past for most.  They would most likely have a lifetime of focus on other skills/talents and not been prepared to face what they faced.  There are also examples of AS in the books who seemed to be broken or cowed far easier than one would expect based on the types of trials they had to pass to earn the shawl.

[king of nowhere]

  On 2/26/2025 at 1:28 AM, Mailman said:

 

 

I just think it could have been so much better. The CGI was great especially in regards to power usage. Fleetwood has exceptional presence.

 

To see sitters reduced to spectators just feels so wrong to me. These are woman that have been forged by passage through the 3 rings had to complete the 100 weave challenge to demonstrate their control of the power under extreme duress in the knowledge that you can die inside those challenges. Have decades and centuries of experience. It just feels wrong.

Expand  

I agree it could have been better. There was no need for the BA to get up and calmly walk to the middle, as if for a ball, before channeling. A quick weave while seated would have worked better for surprise.

Though, thinking of it, the very BA didn't knew  each other identities, so moving to the middle could have been a way to identify each other and avoid friendly fire.

Yes, the way siuan and the others were knocked out, there was no reason to not finish them; better put them under a pile of rubble, like nynaeve.

 

However, most sitters reacting poorly to the fight was absolutely justified. Both because most of them haven't fought with the power since their final test a century before, and because of how surprising it was to have not one, but five black sitters. 

 

Ultimately, what could have been better were small details. There may be practivlcal filming reasons they did it like that, too

[Wassup]

  On 2/26/2025 at 1:42 PM, Turin Turambar said:

I don't think we were discussing if it was wise to take all 3 ta'veren. It was if it should have been easy to decipher that the Dragon would be Aiel from the prophecy.  The two lines in the prophecy were "from the ancient blood", and "born of a maiden wed to no man". Granted there seems to have been limited information gathering done on the Aiel (itself a failure of the tower) but through the breaking,  the Aiel are one of few if not the only people that maintain the same location and structure and not intermingle much. Therefore they should have been a prime candidate for research.  Doing that research would have quickly resulted in learning maidens of the spear are said to be wed to the spear and cannot wed without giving up the spear.  The birth on dragonmount part didn't mean they had to be in combat, it could have been a  random incident as fantasy book prophecy fulfillment frequently occurs that way.

Expand  

 

The AS knew almost nothing about the Aiel.  To Moiraine, Manetheren was the "old blood"; and it was strong in the Two Rivers.  A lot of people in Randland probably didn't even consider the Aiel as being connected to them in any way because of the Spine of the World separating the Waste from their land and the Aiel being so foreign of a culture.

 

The Aiel were very secretive with outsiders and especially weary of AS because they had failed the AS in the past.  Think about how some of the common Aiel react to AS.  One Aiel says something along the lines of bring your lightning.  I will dance with them.  So, researching them was difficult at best. 

 

I think the Aiel were also out of sight, out of mind for the AS.  Many did not leave the tower.  Most that did were not gone for long and did not travel far afield.  That is why the Aiel were a mystery to them even after the Aiel war. 

 

[Wassup]

One item really stood out to me for nitpicking is the entrance to the 13th Depository.  What would be the weave that would open the wall like that?  At this time, I don't think they AS knew how to invert weaves to hide them from others.  So, just hiding the entrance with illusion would not have worked.  Also, someone could have possibly gone through the illusion by accident.

 

I do not recall anyone being able to manipulate matter in such a way as to change the wall to a perfectly round entrance which has a smooth surface.   It looks like the hole was just made into the wall by Verin because the entrance looks like it was made that way by the brick layers.  

 

It just seems like a weave that looks great in the show but does not have a fitting explanation for me.

[king of nowhere]

  On 2/26/2025 at 2:58 PM, Wassup said:

One item really stood out to me for nitpicking is the entrance to the 13th Depository.  What would be the weave that would open the wall like that?  At this time, I don't think they AS knew how to invert weaves to hide them from others.  So, just hiding the entrance with illusion would not have worked.  Also, someone could have possibly gone through the illusion by accident.

 

I do not recall anyone being able to manipulate matter in such a way as to change the wall to a perfectly round entrance which has a smooth surface.   It looks like the hole was just made into the wall by Verin because the entrance looks like it was made that way by the brick layers.  

 

It just seems like a weave that looks great in the show but does not have a fitting explanation for me.

Expand  

True.

The best book-friendly explanation would be that the wall is a terangreal

[Skipp]

  On 2/26/2025 at 3:30 PM, king of nowhere said:

True.

The best book-friendly explanation would be that the wall is a terangreal

Expand  

Or a hidden weave known only by the Aes Sedai who knew of the 13th Depository existence.