A better take

[wynand]

How far out of the realm of possibility would it be for a serious fan to acquire the rights to the screen adaptation and recreate the tv series in a way that portrays the book as the author intended, rather than how the screenwriter thinks their "improved and politically corrected version" should portray the story? 
Seriously.

[DojoToad]

I think that Amazon's rights would have to expire and then purchased for a boatload of money from Jordan's estate/Harriet.  If that part happens, is there enough money left over to do anything with...?

 

Not a lawyer, but a lot of money tends to make most things happen.

[Kaleb]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I think that Amazon's rights would have to expire and then purchased for a boatload of money from Jordan's estate/Harriet.  If that part happens, is there enough money left over to do anything with...?

 

Not a lawyer, but a lot of money tends to make most things happen.

Yep. Whether a "serious fan" version would be better is up for debate given that Rafe himself and many of his team are themselves serious fans, but I welcome anyone with an extra billion dollars to generate more WoT content for me.

Edited March 25 by Kaleb

[Samt]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:01 PM, wynand said:

How far out of the realm of possibility would it be for a serious fan to acquire the rights to the screen adaptation and recreate the tv series in a way that portrays the book as the author intended, rather than how the screenwriter thinks their "improved and politically corrected version" should portray the story? 
Seriously.

Jeff Bezos is one of the richest men in the world.  I'd say there is significant evidence that he isn't doing WoT because he wants to make a significant profit on it.  That suggests he may not be willing to sell the rights to WoT rights for any amount of money that could possibly be re-couped in making a new TV show.  Thus, you would need to find a fan or group of fans that might be willing to take a 9-10 figure loss for the love of the story.  Possible, but seems a long shot.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, Samt said:

Jeff Bezos is one of the richest men in the world.  I'd say there is significant evidence that he isn't doing WoT because he wants to make a significant profit on it.  That suggests he may not be willing to sell the rights to WoT rights for any amount of money that could possibly be re-couped in making a new TV show.  Thus, you would need to find a fan or group of fans that might be willing to take a 9-10 figure loss for the love of the story.  Possible, but seems a long shot.

It's obvious why bezos bought it he wanted his own GoT for his streaming service, and he wanted it almost entirely for the chance at more profit and the prestige it could bring too him.

 

bezos is not some benevolent force or megafan you only have to look at the way he treats his staff or independent contractors to see the true worth of the man.

[Jaccsen]

17 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Yep. Whether a "serious fan" version would be better is up for debate given that Rafe himself and many of his team are themselves serious fans, but I welcome anyone with an extra billion dollars to generate more WoT content for me.

 

For a serious fan, Rafe seems unable to understand the source material. His adaptation changes things radically and not just to fit it on the screen. His team makes up a lot of content that never appeared in the book.

[Elgee]

Are you also from South Africa, Wynand?

[Samt]

10 hours ago, Mailman said:

It's obvious why bezos bought it he wanted his own GoT for his streaming service, and he wanted it almost entirely for the chance at more profit and the prestige it could bring too him.

 

bezos is not some benevolent force or megafan you only have to look at the way he treats his staff or independent contractors to see the true worth of the man.

I'm not saying he's a benevolent force or superfan.  It's more a consideration of reputation (personal and for his streaming service) and ego.  I just don't think that Bezos would part with the rights for WoT for an amount of money that wold reflect the economic value that someone else could get from them.  He would jack up the price in order to compensate for the perceived harm to his own brands and that increase in price would make this an unviable venture economically speaking.  So if someone wants to buy WoT from Bezos, they have to do that for a reason other than wanting to make money.  

[Jaccsen]

15 minutes ago, Samt said:

I'm not saying he's a benevolent force or superfan.  It's more a consideration of reputation (personal and for his streaming service) and ego.  I just don't think that Bezos would part with the rights for WoT for an amount of money that wold reflect the economic value that someone else could get from them.  He would jack up the price in order to compensate for the perceived harm to his own brands and that increase in price would make this an unviable venture economically speaking.  So if someone wants to buy WoT from Bezos, they have to do that for a reason other than wanting to make money.  

Amazon may not have the movie rights so there are options. It just depends on how things are structured. 

[wynand]

1 hour ago, Elgee said:

Are you also from South Africa, Wynand?

I am/was- Cape Town. Been in Nebraska since 2013.

[king of nowhere]

5 hours ago, Jaccsen said:

For a serious fan, Rafe seems unable to understand the source material. His adaptation changes things radically and not just to fit it on the screen. His team makes up a lot of content that never appeared in the book.

so, you clearly are a serious fan; let's assume that you are given a big bunch of money to adapt wot.

oh, but you have to fit everything in no more than 8 seasons of 8 episodes of 50 minutes each - meaning you've got three hours for each book. 100 millions for the first season seems a lot, but once you start hiring all the actors and the troupe and work on the set, most of it has already vanished. and you've got to replace all the info dumps and internal monologues with something that works on screen.

 

rafe's job was far from perfect, but all the changes were caused by immense external constraints.

[wynand]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

so, you clearly are a serious fan; let's assume that you are given a big bunch of money to adapt wot.

oh, but you have to fit everything in no more than 8 seasons of 8 episodes of 50 minutes each - meaning you've got three hours for each book. 100 millions for the first season seems a lot, but once you start hiring all the actors and the troupe and work on the set, most of it has already vanished. and you've got to replace all the info dumps and internal monologues with something that works on screen.

 

rafe's job was far from perfect, but all the changes were caused by immense external constraints.

You’re right his job was far from perfect. Along with it being an afront to interpretive integrity it is loaded with external elements that reeks of all the buzzwords that would keep this comment from being approved on here.
I resent that someone did that to a story that I love.  You would think that with the limitations he had (as you mentioned) that he would have spent less time completely changing entire personalities of characters and more time working with what was already there and was good. 

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, Samt said:

I'm not saying he's a benevolent force or superfan.  It's more a consideration of reputation (personal and for his streaming service) and ego.  I just don't think that Bezos would part with the rights for WoT for an amount of money that wold reflect the economic value that someone else could get from them.  He would jack up the price in order to compensate for the perceived harm to his own brands and that increase in price would make this an unviable venture economically speaking.  So if someone wants to buy WoT from Bezos, they have to do that for a reason other than wanting to make money.  

But again you were saying that he cares little for the money however this is the man whose policies forced his employees to wear nappies, pee in water bottles and not wear seat belts, and some of his work sites have 100%+ turnover rates.

 

I fully agree that his reputation in certain areas is very important to him.

[Bigote_grande]

Except the changes that were made to the show were not needed to condense the show. I'm sure it's been talked about here but most of the changes don't add any value. Making the EF5 older at the start when we already knew this show,  if completed, was going to take 16 years. Perrin having and killing his wife left no room to develop him in season 1 because how do you comeback from that.  Changing Mat's character and family fundamentally added nothing of value except ruin a lot of people's favorite character.  The jumping off a cliff scene with Nyn and Eggy while I understand the point and imagery that time could have been better used showing the myrdral stalking the boys. The who is the DR was over played for no good reason and with that distracted from the world building and character development. Rosamund Pike is a good Moiraine but having her as the biggest actor when she isn't even in half the books was a mistake. Showing the fight at Edmods was a waste of resources and not very well done. 

As you said the budget and time is limited and they wasted it. You have 64 episodes to tell a story that spans 14 books new spring is a prequel so should be ignored. That's 4.5 hours a book to take the innocent kids from EF to TG. There's a lot of material that needs to be cut to achieve that goal adding original scene that are pointless (Stefin) or have a better in world scene too achieve the same thing (Perrin's frozen wife vs killing WC's after Hopper is killed). 

The show is full of questionable to bad decisions in the first season.  They completely punted the finale, I know that covid and Mat's actor not returning were hurdles that they needed to overcome, it still shows that they lack the creativity, and understanding of the source material to make a pivot to tell a good story. 

[Jaccsen]

On 3/26/2024 at 3:08 PM, king of nowhere said:

so, you clearly are a serious fan; let's assume that you are given a big bunch of money to adapt wot.

oh, but you have to fit everything in no more than 8 seasons of 8 episodes of 50 minutes each - meaning you've got three hours for each book. 100 millions for the first season seems a lot, but once you start hiring all the actors and the troupe and work on the set, most of it has already vanished. and you've got to replace all the info dumps and internal monologues with something that works on screen.

 

rafe's job was far from perfect, but all the changes were caused by immense external constraints.

 

I completely disagree. The majority of changes have nothing to do with the internal monologues. They flat out change the plots and characters. We did not need all the Logain stuff in season 1. We did not need the Warder funeral. We did not need any of the Tar Valon stuff. It did not quicken or advance the plot of Eye of the World. Those items were sheer waste of space in an 8 episode season.

 

Also, there are plenty of books that can be largely relegated to an episode or two (Book 10 for instance). There are huge sections that can be cut out and have zero effect on the plot. Rafe chose to cut out the good sections and fill it with his fan fiction.

[Jaccsen]

14 hours ago, Bigote_grande said:

Except the changes that were made to the show were not needed to condense the show. I'm sure it's been talked about here but most of the changes don't add any value. Making the EF5 older at the start when we already knew this show,  if completed, was going to take 16 years. Perrin having and killing his wife left no room to develop him in season 1 because how do you comeback from that.  Changing Mat's character and family fundamentally added nothing of value except ruin a lot of people's favorite character.  The jumping off a cliff scene with Nyn and Eggy while I understand the point and imagery that time could have been better used showing the myrdral stalking the boys. The who is the DR was over played for no good reason and with that distracted from the world building and character development. Rosamund Pike is a good Moiraine but having her as the biggest actor when she isn't even in half the books was a mistake. Showing the fight at Edmods was a waste of resources and not very well done. 

As you said the budget and time is limited and they wasted it. You have 64 episodes to tell a story that spans 14 books new spring is a prequel so should be ignored. That's 4.5 hours a book to take the innocent kids from EF to TG. There's a lot of material that needs to be cut to achieve that goal adding original scene that are pointless (Stefin) or have a better in world scene too achieve the same thing (Perrin's frozen wife vs killing WC's after Hopper is killed). 

The show is full of questionable to bad decisions in the first season.  They completely punted the finale, I know that covid and Mat's actor not returning were hurdles that they needed to overcome, it still shows that they lack the creativity, and understanding of the source material to make a pivot to tell a good story. 

 

Agreed. I do not think the intent was to make a good WoT series. They wanted the name and then wanted to write their own story. They do not care about internal consistency even within their own interpretation.

Edited March 28 by Jaccsen

[Elder_Haman]

17 minutes ago, Jaccsen said:

 

I do not think the intent was to make a good WoT series.

This is laughable. Of course they wanted to make a good WoT series. Whether they succeeded or not is a matter of opinion, but they clearly didn’t set out to make a flop. 

[Samt]

37 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

This is laughable. Of course they wanted to make a good WoT series. Whether they succeeded or not is a matter of opinion, but they clearly didn’t set out to make a flop. 

The intention was to use the name and proper nouns from WoT to make up a story.   Maybe you think it's a good story.  But it's not a good WoT series because it's only tangentially connected to actual WoT.  

[Elder_Haman]

13 minutes ago, Samt said:

The intention was to use the name and proper nouns from WoT to make up a story.   Maybe you think it's a good story.  But it's not a good WoT series because it's only tangentially connected to actual WoT.  

It is far more than “tangentially connected”. The fact that you hate the changes doesn’t mean that the overall story has been fundamentally altered. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

It is far more than “tangentially connected”. The fact that you hate the changes doesn’t mean that the overall story has been fundamentally altered. 

The fact that the story has been fundamentally altered means the story has been fundamentally altered.  

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Samt said:

The fact that the story has been fundamentally altered means the story has been fundamentally altered.  

What FUNDAMENTAL changes have been made? Not plot points being shifted or character origins being changed. I’m talking changes to the overall plot and structure. 

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

What FUNDAMENTAL changes have been made? Not plot points being shifted or character origins being changed. I’m talking changes to the overall plot and structure. 

I've listed a lot of fundamental changes on this forum in the past, but here are a few:

 

--I think that Rand not getting his wound through sheathing the sword is a fundamental change because it changes the choice that he has in his own suffering and arc.  And there is really no reason that this change had to be made.  Doing it the way it was in the book doesn't put any more constraints on the production.  

--I think that making Matt's power not based on his Finn trips makes him a completely different type of hero.

--I think that Min is a completely different person in the show and I don't think Rand can have the same arc without Min being Min.

--Thom not meeting Moiraine fundamentally changes how things can play out (although if there are no Finns, this doesn't matter as much.  But no Finns is a big deal).  

 

 

Of course, you can always argue that anything isn't fundamental.  In the coming season, what are some things that you think have to happen in order to avoid changing the plot and structure fundamentally?  As in, will you commit to saying that if x doesn't happen, that's a fundamental change?  What is x?

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, Samt said:

--I think that Rand not getting his wound through sheathing the sword is a fundamental change because it changes the choice that he has in his own suffering and arc.  And there is really no reason that this change had to be made.  Doing it the way it was in the book doesn't put any more constraints on the production.

I’m not sure I follow. What “choice in his own suffering” are you referring to? In any event, I think that there are still some opportunities for him to sheathe the sword before he goes Darth Rand - possibly in the Waste. 
 

32 minutes ago, Samt said:

I think that making Matt's power not based on his Finn trips makes him a completely different type of hero.

I don’t know that we know this. He really hasn’t shown us any “powers” yet. Something happened when he blew the horn, but we aren’t sure what. And we don’t know that the Finn have been cut. 

 

33 minutes ago, Samt said:

--Thom not meeting Moiraine fundamentally changes how things can play out (although if there are no Finns, this doesn't matter as much.  But no Finns is a big deal).

This one makes the least sense to me. How is Thom and Moiraine’s relationship fundamental? There are plenty of reasons to go rescue Mo and plenty of time for Thom to develop a relationship with her. Nothing about their history together has been foreclosed by the story they’ve told so far. 

 

35 minutes ago, Samt said:

In the coming season, what are some things that you think have to happen in order to avoid changing the plot and structure fundamentally?

Rand has to go to Rhuidean and be named Car’a’carn. Egwene has to learn from the Wise Ones. Perrin has to return to the Two Rivers and unite them. Siuan must be deposed. Nyn and Elayne must become exiles. 

 

39 minutes ago, Samt said:

As in, will you commit to saying that if x doesn't happen, that's a fundamental change?  What is x?

Mat has to visit the Finn. Removing the Finn entirely would be a huge blow to the fundamental structure of the novels. 
 

Asmo (or another Forsaken) needs to train Rand with the Power and Lan must train him with the sword before Dumai’s Wells. (I suspect both will happen in S3)

 

[king of nowhere]

18 hours ago, Bigote_grande said:

Except the changes that were made to the show were not needed to condense the show.

 

4 hours ago, Jaccsen said:

 

I completely disagree. The majority of changes have nothing to do with the internal monologues. They flat out change the plots and characters.

you think it's possible to condense the story just by removing some parts while leaving the rest identical?

you think it's possible to remove info dumps without adding other story elements to convey the same information?

a lot of those changes were ways to condense the show or to explain stuff by showing. making the ef5 older skips some early character development. expanding role for logain shows all the stuff with man wielding power and false dragons. the tar valon stuff happened anyway, they just moved it earlier. perrin killing his wife was made to exteriorize his internal conflict. stepin was there to show how the warder bond works, to provide tension for lan once his own bond is broken.
whether those changes were effective or not is another matter. but saying that they have no reasons behind them is just plain wrong.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

To interject, I think it is always strange why those who do not like the series always gloss over how many fans of the books hated the first three (or some of at least) books. And how many fantasy diehards started the series and gave up.

 

And how the book teases the concept of the Dragon, teaching the reader a little bit at a time with huge doses of unreliable narrator with only Rand's uneducated view point. How would that work when the press releases for the series say "A new Amazon prime show about the Dragon Reborn, the most powerful magic-wielder of all-time come back to save the world and destroy it! Moiraine is an Aes Sedai sworn to protect the Dragon from the evil Dark One trying to destroy the world! Oh by the way if you are going to watch it, forget what I just said. I mean, it could be about a lot of things. Nothing saying Rand is the Dragon just because he is the main character. I mean, maybe the Dragon hasn't been reborn, thought of that, huh? Don't just go jumping to conclusions!".

 

So many things had to be changed. Judging it by simply how accurate it is to the book was always going to be an exercise in frustration.