Do the excuses of season 1 still hold true?

[Elendir]

Reading discussions, I am starting to think, that I am part of very small group of people, who think that Rand channeling was his secondary power. I see his primary power elsewhere.

 

When Rand traveled and interact with people, he bound them to his cause. Min, Guy with carriage outside Caemlyn, Loial, Elayne, Ingtar and Hurin, Lan who was alofe to him at first, ..., Siswai'amans ... That was his primary power.

 

TV show Rand, who don't interact with Min, Tom, Loial, Ingtar.... That is his real depowering and it is total so far. And it has its impact on story logick either, because without their relations to Rand, they lack of motivation in show.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Elendir

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Elendir said:

Reading discussions, I am starting to think, that I am part of very small group of people, who think that Rand channeling was his secondary power. I see his primary power elsewhere.

 

When Rand traveled and interact with people, he bound them to his cause. Min, Guy with carriage outside Caemlyn, Loial, Elayne, Ingtar and Hurin, Lan who was alofe to him at first, ..., Siswai'amans ... That was his primary power.

 

TV show Rand, who don't interact with Min, Tom, Loial, Ingtar.... That is his real depowering and it is total so far. And it has its impact on story logick either, because without their relations to Rand, they lack of motivation in show.

this is a wonderful point.

 

however, it does not impact the show much, because the bast majority of that "power" is used from book 4 onward.

we already had subtle hints. rand already has the loialty of the emond fielders. masema looked at him in awe. avienda said car'a'carn. alayne is loial to him through egwene and nynaeve. as for the rest, rand journey is just starting. just like in the books, the first books are about rand accepting his fate as dragon reborn; then, from book 4, rand unites the world.

and it's worth noting that for all his ta'veren, he had to fight hard to get the various nobles.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

4 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Yeah, it's less about girl, more like about Egwene. She saved herself, even though she shouldn't have, clearly showing character can be self-sufficient and doesn't need any outside help. But than Rand can't get season climax on his own, he needs big strong Egwene to save him. But i'm sure that isn't playing favorites, Rand just doesn't need to be center of story, right? 6 more seasons to go, lol.

 

That's not exactly Rand's moment, more like emphasis on how little agency and progress he had in two seasons. Instead of letting Rand fight, show simply hand-waves storyline. To have Turak and Ingtar to say words from the book and to not have same meaning in scenes like in the book is not following source material. It's more like mocking source material. "This guy is having moral dilemma and trying to redeem himself, lol he just dies not even stalling his enemies". "This guy is stepping stone in hero's path and clear outline of Rand's growth, lol he simply dies like cartoon character".

How was this big strong Egwene saving Rand? She was getting owned by Ishy and almost begged Rand to help her, did people watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed? Everyone was getting owned by Ishy, the moment Rand is unshielded, untrained, un experienced as he is he owns Ishy, deflects everything he throws at him and kills him. Egwene, perrin, matt they where all going to die unless Rand saved them.  

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Scarloc99 said:

deflects everything he throws at him and kills him. Egwene, perrin, matt they where all going to die unless Rand saved them.  

More then deflects. He absorbs all that and directs it into his sword.

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Elendir said:

Reading discussions, I am starting to think, that I am part of very small group of people, who think that Rand channeling was his secondary power. I see his primary power elsewhere.

 

When Rand traveled and interact with people, he bound them to his cause. Min, Guy with carriage outside Caemlyn, Loial, Elayne, Ingtar and Hurin, Lan who was alofe to him at first, ..., Siswai'amans ... That was his primary power.

 

TV show Rand, who don't interact with Min, Tom, Loial, Ingtar.... That is his real depowering and it is total so far. And it has its impact on story logick either, because without their relations to Rand, they lack of motivation in show.

For most of books 1,2 and 3 Rand doesn't really interact with many people. Book 1 he and Matt are split off, or he is hiding behind Moiraine, 

 

Book 2 he is travelling with lanfer in an alternate universe for parts of the story, although he does get some leadership experience. 

 

Book 3 he goes lone bandit across rand land and doesn't really talk to anyone other then to kill them. 

 

So show rand at this point is probably in about the same place as book rand fro that respect. 

[fearbrog]

43 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

How was this big strong Egwene saving Rand? She was getting owned by Ishy and almost begged Rand to help her, did people watch the same scene or did Amazon have 2 versions they showed? Everyone was getting owned by Ishy, the moment Rand is unshielded, untrained, un experienced as he is he owns Ishy, deflects everything he throws at him and kills him. Egwene, perrin, matt they where all going to die unless Rand saved them.  

Because first show denying Rand his fight with Turak. And than he is sheilded again and Egwene literally saves him. And it would be okay, maybe show really needed to give her another moment to be heroic, but than let Rand really fight Ishy, like Jordan wrote. Where in the book Rand struggles and learns about sacrifice, in show it's Egwene struggles and Rand stabs Ishy. It doesn't matter if he "deflects" or "absorbs" Ishy Power, in book he succeeded because he really fought for a win (and had help from Horn), not simply because he is Dragon.

[Requiem]

Rand beating Turak in the book is entirely unearned. He is losing till he assumes the void and then is still losing if slower. He goes on the attack and just wins because RJ needed him too. By this point in the books he has about a month's training with Lan and some experience after travelling with Ingtar and Co. He hasn't earned a victory against a trained and experienced blade master and that fact he wins is frankly ludicrous.

[Yamezt]

9 hours ago, fearbrog said:

Yeah, it's less about girl, more like about Egwene. She saved herself, even though she shouldn't have, clearly showing character can be self-sufficient and doesn't need any outside help. But than Rand can't get season climax on his own, he needs big strong Egwene to save him. But i'm sure that isn't playing favorites, Rand just doesn't need to be center of story, right?

I feel like your dislike originates from a dislike towards Egwene (which is your prerogative).

 

The other ladies involved in that scene: Moiraine removing the Damane's shield and Elayne healing Rand were pretty integral in turning the tide, so I'm not sure why you're dismissing their aid. (Also, I like Rand making moon eyes as Elayne.)

 

Rand just spent the whole season running away because he doesn't want to hurt everyone/his friends. And I guess the lesson is he needs people/his friends. So it comes full circle. If he solves everything because he is the Dragon, then why does he need to gather this army or unite the Nations when he can solve it by being the Dragon/Chosen one?

 

And if the show follows down the path of the book, then Rand has to deal with letting people (Maidens) die for him once he accepts he has to unite the world.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Yamezt

[Deviations]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:24 PM, grayavatar said:

The explanation for why the story doesn't stick to the books is limited time and limited seasons allocated. This meaning that more than one book will need to fit in each season. But is this true? I feel that these two season demonstrate that they had the capability to stick much more closely to the books.

 

Many people were saying "Lol, these fans expect the story word for word". If anything I feel that we got too many words.

I truly feel that if you took most of the dialogue from the first two books you would end up with less dialogue than what we got in the show. The books are thick but it's mostly descriptive text.

 

For most of the 16 episodes approx 16 hours of runtime what we got was a meandering Days of Our Lives drama. Warders lounging around and chatting, almost every male character being emotional or weeping on the floor. Darkfriends and Forsaken frolicking with Trollocs and chidren showing what nice guys they really are. Ishamael and Selene flirting? c'mon! Falme was the time for Nynaeve to shine, instead she spent most of the time staring at Elaynes leg. Selene and Liandrin had way too much screen time.

 

Where is the urgency, the tension? Where are the stakes? Is the importance of the prophecies understood by the audience? Ishmael's actor should be an extra at this point with very limited dialogue. Anytime he is shown he must be menacing. (Think Darth Vader) Suroth should have been flat on the floor begging for mercy, instead she was trying to boss one of the Forsaken around. You can't have a story like this without actual bad guys. The Seanchan where almost portrayed like good guys, which at this point of the story they should not be. The Whitecloaks were the towns liberators. Where was Ingtar's reveal and redemption?

 

One very great issue with this show is that they take too long to establish some concepts while the rest of the story lags.

What are Damane?

This should have taken 10 minutes at most. You could establish this by putting Eqwene in a 1 meter wide partition in a room with many such partitions. Have her pull at the adam bracelet like it is Marvel Thor's immovable hammer. Have her given a pet name and be patted on the head. Have her punished/ rewarded with the adam like training a puppy. I could demonstrate this in 5 minutes or less across 2-3 short scenes. Renna had way too much screen time.

 

What are warders and what does the bond do?

Have one of the boys, while training with Lan, ask "why not just have an army of warders?"  and then Lan succinctly explains the benefits and limitations. I think this one scene alone would eliminate about 4 episodes of show content. Maybe more !

 

Costs

Many of the actors that played roles of background characters should have had limited dialogue and been little more than extras. Alanna's warders should be seen and not heard. Verin's warder was portrayed well.

I feel way too much effort was put in to practical effects for the Ways in season 1 only to CGI it better in season 2

The adam don't need to be CGI'd to this extent. Show the leash, have the sul'dam tug on the leash, this will have greater effect on screen. How are damane supposed to report to their masters or beg for forgiveness if they have a sucker in their mouth? The blonde Seanchan damane almost seemed like she was giving orders with her stance and attitude. Head held high, shoulders back.

The novice quarters in the White Tower are ridiculously large and elaborate. They should be almost cells.

What was that giant throne on top of a pyramid that was somehow dragged in to a forest where there are no roads? LOL. Does it have a retractable bulldozer. Completely unnecessary.

Building an entire village on that river where Perrin gets captured? As people move to cities there are many underpopulated vilages and towns in europe. There are many cowboy western sets in the USA that can be repurposed. Not every house needs thatched roofs. Even Emond's Field had some roof tiles. In Rand's dream where he was married to Egwene how much did it cost to build that house with the round timber roof?

Barthanes, a very minor character in the books is the second most powerful lord in Cairhien, yet an entire set was built for him to sit and eat among the kitchen servants? Really?! As far as I can tell this is the only time they used this set. I hope they didn't build the location for the party in Cairhien because that scene was so inconsequential (and slow and boring) compared to the books.

 

Pacing

The first season should have been a desperate escape from Emond's field via Shadar Logoth, reuniting in Caemlyn and rushing to Fal Dara. Tar Valon should not have been shown yet as it bogged the story down.

Season 2 should have been an adventurous gut clencher chasing after the horn, "Lord Rand" should not have been glossed over. Culminating in Falme with Min rather than Avienda. The scenes inside Falme with Ingtars party should have emphasized stealth with the battle happening later OUTSIDE the city using CGI to multiply the soldiers on each side in to 2 large armies. The battle took the whole final episode in the show but it should have only been about 10 minutes at most. Mat on a roof facing 2 dozen Seanchan waiting in a line to charge him was utter nonsense. I laughed so hard at this and then I laughed harder when the heroes appeared. It was filmed like a high school production and then some high school productions might do better. Very much an unimpressive anticlimax. Birgitte should have been CGI'd riding through the clouds and shooting  arrows that set ships on fire. Instead we got some no-personality cosplayers standing in a line.

Season 3 is where the white tower should have been introduced. Hunters for the horn. Faile. Mat with Gawyn Galad. Everyone heading to the stone and meeting Aiel along the way.

 

I feel the story has been mixed like a salad and landed in the same spot as in the books, only the plot has been sacrificed along the way in exchange for a strong focus on what should be background characters. There is just so much that could have been cut out of the show and replaced with actual story.

Many of the more interesting aspects from the books have been suppressed while bolstering all the boring stuff.

 

There was so many times the story was bogged down in useless drama where I wished I could physically give it a push to move it along.

 

 

Amen brother.

 

I’m going to try and avoid bitching on each and every thread……..

 

For the record, I did come back to try and watch season 2, even though I really disliked season one.  Eternal hope for my favorite book series I guess.

 

1.  Jordan’s books (the STORY) are why we are all here.  He wrote an incredible story, with incredible characters.

2.  This is NOT Jordan’s story.  I can go along with Sanderson who said he looks at it as a different turning of the wheel.  O.K.  I can get there.  However, this turning is not as interesting to me as the turning written by Jordan and it’s not close.

3.  “It has to be adapted to fit the TV medium, blah, blah, blah…..  Other works have been adapted well.  Band of Brothers.  GoT., etc.

4.  The acting blows.  I’ve always like Pike, but she won’t ever look back and call this her best work.  No subtlety whatsoever.  I turned off S2E2 after seeing Eqwene pout for the 80th time after hearing about Nyneve’s potential compared to hers.  It was like watching a nikelodian after school tv show.

5.  The casting is off.  Sheriam is the only great fit for me so far.  Moraine and Rand are O.K., but most of the rest are miles off.  I will give props to the new Mat.  At least I can understand this guy’s dialog.  I had to turn on captions for the original guy.  Uno is O.K. Too.

6.  The characters are not generally like-able.  Nyneve is like-able but she has none of the foibles that made the book Nyneve my second favorite character.  

6.  I’ll try and watch a few more episodes as it seems that folks here are writing that the episodes get better as they go.  Let’s hope.

 

 

[Yamezt]

16 minutes ago, Deviations said:

I turned off S2E2 after seeing Eqwene pout for the 80th time after hearing about Nyneve’s potential compared to hers.  It was like watching a nikelodian after school tv show.

As they say S2 also includes tDR in the adapation, then I assume this is their version of Egwene being a catty b-iatch to Nynaeve in tDR, resulting in Elayne slapping her. Happened in a more gentle way in this version.

 

16 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Sheriam is the only great fit for me so far.

I did like Sheriam's casting. I actually also really like Leane this season giving people her withering looks and taking the keeper's role very seriously.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Yamezt

[fearbrog]

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

I feel like your dislike originates from a dislike towards Egwene (which is your prerogative).

 

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

Rand just spent the whole season running away because he doesn't want to hurt everyone/his friends. And I guess the lesson is he needs people/his friends.

The reason i concentrate on Egwene rather than Moiraine( who admittedly act more like Rand is false Dragon by declaring him with her Power) is because show authors choose different lessons to teach for Egg and Rand. Lesson for Egwene is she can do anything by herself if she wants, lesson for Rand is he can't do anything without his friends. And i have problem with this because if in book's Rand really needs power of other to succeed, he still can do some things by himself and show doesn't let him. While Egwene really shouldn't learn that type of lesson.

 

4 hours ago, Yamezt said:

If he solves everything because he is the Dragon, then why does he need to gather this army or unite the Nations when he can solve it by being the Dragon/Chosen one?

I don't know, in show so far he goes from being useless to Dragon the shit out of Turak and Ishy, with no in between, he didn't do anything as Rand, well maybe he beat up dude (lol) and banged Lanfear(lmao). 

5 hours ago, Yamezt said:

And if the show follows down the path of the book, then Rand has to deal with letting people (Maidens) die for him once he accepts he has to unite the world.

By the end of book two not only he learns about sacrifice, which might happen or not in show, if show follows down the path of the book, Rand also learns about responsibilities by interacting with Hurin and Loial and Ingtar. He does try to act alone in book 3, but he still learned to be a leader even if little. In show he about to go and meet Aiel with no experience at all.

[Yamezt]

54 minutes ago, fearbrog said:

Lesson for Egwene is she can do anything by herself if she wants, lesson for Rand is he can't do anything without his friends.

Egwene had to learn some ugly truths about herself - that she is an ugly green eyed monster earlier in the season in episode 2 -  wanting to be treated as special just like Nynaeve. She never really appreciated Nynaeve until she thought she lost Nynaeve in the arches.

 

When she got Nynaeve back, she finally realises Nynaeve was also hurting when she was there to comfort Egwene about Rand's purported death, but she cannot support Nynaeve like Nyneave did for her. And she feels smaller and smaller.

 

Then the irony of it all was the Seanchan treated Egwene as very special - she finally got what she yearned for the in WT.

 

Egwene freeing herself from Renna - I don't really think is intended to be a lesson that she can do anything by herself, rather than having the satisfaction of watching the abusee finally being able to turn on the abuser.

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

he didn't do anything as Rand

He also faced Lanfear in the World of Dreams and removed Moiraine's shield. 

 

1 hour ago, fearbrog said:

He does try to act alone in book 3,

Someone posted something that said that Season 3 is linked to Book 4. So S2 is kinda part of book 3