WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[Samt]

14 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Yes. And she disciplined her mind like an Aes Sedai to defeat the a'dam. It doesn't bother me. Clearly it bothers you.

But this same logic means that the 3 oaths should have been basically meaningless to anybody with a disciplined mind. The problem is that this type of mental fortress essentially requires completely dissociating your mind into separate parts and makes you go insane.  

I think the better argument is that Renna didn't see it as a weapon and thus didn't stop Egwene from using it, but that also has some odd side effects.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Elder_Haman said:

Because it doesn't bother me and it seems a valid enough explanation? She resisted the sul'dam at every turn. She continued to fight her capture. She was able to defy Renna during battle. I use that as circumstantial evidence that she learned to discipline her mind against the torture. Like she did in the books.

No, she didn't? Blood and bloody ashes, are you deliberately trying to be dense? You took that as circumstantial evidence of something that is completely against the book lore and the show lore and the very nature of the a'dam. Well, congratulations.  Is admitting that there is a plot hole so difficult for you? Or what is your particular problem here? Your solution beggars belief, does not fit the evidence shown in the show, does not fit the lore in the books. That you find it convincing means nothing, it is still pointless, idiotic speculation. 

 

What point are you trying to make here? That any spurious defense of the show's plot should held equal to the logic of the show or the book's lore? Or that anything you say is beyond reproach? Your argument is stupid, and contradicts the show lore and the book lore. Even if the show's writers agree with you, it does not change that and your attempts to bully and supress other users here is demeaning. 

 

And if you must know, yes, that bothers me. Perhaps you can enlighten me who I should complain about your behaviour as a moderator to? Or are you allowed to act as you please and insult you who you please here?

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

But this same logic means that the 3 oaths should have been basically meaningless

No. The Oath Rod and the a'dam aren't the same things. The Oaths are made unbreakable by the OP as channeled through the Rod. The a'dam does not have that component.

[Guire]

6 minutes ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Honestly if would have been much better writing had Egwene not killed the sul’dam and have the sul’dam ask “Why have you spared my life?” And Egwene reply, “Had I had any intention harming you I would never have been able to touch the flaming collar.” “Instead I have helped you to find your proper place as Damane. Thank you for teaching me those lessons so well.”

That was almost exactly how I thought they would play that. Egwene as hand of justice.

[Gary Again]

I don't think the boat scene was impacted by Moiraine's oaths she didn't attack the Seanchan with the power she attacked the boats and then the seanchan either lived or died based on their own actions which is what she did with the ferry in season one and I think that was probably foreshadowing to this.

 

As to if she could do that I don't see a problem with it because when Bayle Domon is running from the Seanchan in the books they make it really clear that the Seanchan can easily sink his boat from distance and they showed that Moiraine focused on the damanae first, she should be able to clearly see them since they are channeling and then she just systematically attacked ships until they fled. If she just wiped out their entire fleet in one shot that would be overpowered but they showed her just strategically and systematically go from ship to ship so to me I can buy that.

 

Shielding at that distance is problematic but Ishy was there so who knows what he pulled, it could have been a circle with him leading it, could have been a gateway inverted and hidden or a scrying device so I'll give some leeway because Ishy knew he was trying to have them shield Rand so I'm sure Ishy can think of a clever way to do it where an untrained Rand wouldn't see it coming that is entirely believable to me.

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

I think that there are absolutely some politics involved. There is certainly an effort to showcase strong female characters and emphasize diversity. And there is, I'm sure, a degree of pandering to critics who vote for awards, who clearly skew in a particular political direction. Neither of those things are bad in and of themselves. 

Its not bad it just complicates telling a story with 4 male characters whose book characteristics are deemed toxic.  It's like telling a story from pacifist point of view about American Civil War.  

[DigificWriter]

I'll admit to being wrong about Egwene temporarily dying. The question is, is everyone else as willing to admit that they were wrong in doubting the veracity of the changes made to how the collar portion of the a'dam worked for the show?

[Samt]

5 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Who have I bullied or suppressed? I express my opinions. As do others. I do not bully or name call. 
 

Again, I appreciate your passion on this issue. I have a different viewpoint. 

I don't know how you intended it, but I don't know another way to read, "I'm sorry this is happening to you." other than as sarcastic mockery.  Pretty sure you weren't expressing sincere commiseration.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Samt said:

I don't know how you intended it, but I don't know another way to read, "I'm sorry this is happening to you." other than as sarcastic mockery.  Pretty sure you weren't expressing sincere commiseration.  

Fair. Mea culpa. 

[Samt]

10 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

No. The Oath Rod and the a'dam aren't the same things. The Oaths are made unbreakable by the OP as channeled through the Rod. The a'dam does not have that component.

Well, both are powered by the one power.  And it's made clear that (at least in the books and probably in the show due to the twitter Q and A answers) the Oath Rod works based on what the taker of the oath believes (to be a weapon, to be the truth, to be a danger to her life). So if someone can use mental gymnastics to believe something, they can invalidate the 3 oaths.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Well, both are powered by the one power.  And it's made clear that (at least in the books and probably in the show due to the twitter Q and A answers) the Oath Rod works based on what the taker of the oath believes (to be a weapon, to be the truth, to be a danger to her life). So if someone can use mental gymnastics to believe something, they can invalidate the 3 oaths.  

Like how they can choose their words super carefully to be deceptive yet not "utter no word that is not true"?

Edited October 6, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I'll admit to being wrong about Egwene temporarily dying. The question is, is everyone else as willing to admit that they were wrong in doubting the veracity of the changes made to how the collar portion of the a'dam worked for the show?

I will admit that I didn’t anticipate it devolving into nonsense.  I never agreed with your stance but I thought they would at least have a logical resolution, not the self-contradictory idiocy they gave us.  Did anyone have “you remove the collar by removing the bracelet” on their WoT Bingo card?  Shame it didn’t work like that two episodes ago…

 

Not to mention that the Nyn sub-plot was absolutely pointless because they learned nothing and accomplished nothing.

[SinisterDeath]

41 minutes ago, ilovezam said:

This almost sounds a little like "the function of this pistol is not as a weapon, all it does is launch a projectile at a high velocity which can happen to hurt someone when I point it at them" 😛

 

The a'dam is explicitly designed as a deeply invasive enslavement device, I don't think it's "only to link two channelers". IIRC it's supposed to be nigh impossible for damane to even contemplate causing harm to their sul'dam, but Egwene straight up collared Renna with the intention to kill her.

I can use a gun as a spoon, just as Egwene can use a collar on her Sul'dam to make her look pretty.

The trick is to not have premeditation in mind while using the device.

[Sabio]

15 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

I don't think the boat scene was impacted by Moiraine's oaths she didn't attack the Seanchan with the power she attacked the boats and then the seanchan either lived or died based on their own actions which is what she did with the ferry in season one and I think that was probably foreshadowing to this.

 

As to if she could do that I don't see a problem with it because when Bayle Domon is running from the Seanchan in the books they make it really clear that the Seanchan can easily sink his boat from distance and they showed that Moiraine focused on the damanae first, she should be able to clearly see them since they are channeling and then she just systematically attacked ships until they fled. If she just wiped out their entire fleet in one shot that would be overpowered but they showed her just strategically and systematically go from ship to ship so to me I can buy that.

 

Shielding at that distance is problematic but Ishy was there so who knows what he pulled, it could have been a circle with him leading it, could have been a gateway inverted and hidden or a scrying device so I'll give some leeway because Ishy knew he was trying to have them shield Rand so I'm sure Ishy can think of a clever way to do it where an untrained Rand wouldn't see it coming that is entirely believable to me.

You're still using a weave that might kill a lot of innocent slaves, etc.  I mean the chance any, but a few will be able to make it to shore safely is pretty slim.  It's clear the fire was meant as an attack, using the power, to kill these people.  By that logic an Aes Sedai could set a house on fire and be like I just set the house on fire, it's not my fault the people didn't get out in time.  Sinking the ferry wasn't the same thing, no one was at risk, she didn't kill anyone.  She saw the ferry as a way for the shadowspawn to cross so stopped the possibility.  She didn't sink the ferry with the people on it and say up to them to swim to safety.  

Edited October 6, 2023 by Sabio

[Samt]

9 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

Like how they can choose their words super carefully to be deceptive yet not "utter no word that is not true"?

Well, that is a thing they do.  But they can't say something unless they believe it is true.  With all of their brain.  And in all of their mental fortresses.  It may require creativity to understand why they believe it is true.  But they still believe it sincerely and there is always an explanation that seems at least plausible as to why it is true from their point of view.  

 

As was mentioned, if Egwene ended up letting Renna go, that would be an interesting Aes Sedai type thing where she convinced herself it wasn't a weapon because she wasn't going to hurt Renna.  But it takes some super strong Koolaid to plan to kill someone with something while also believing that this thing is not a weapon.  

 

9 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I can use a gun as a spoon, just as Egwene can use a collar on her Sul'dam to make her look pretty.

The trick is to not have premeditation in mind while using the device.

So Egwene didn't have a plan and just lives in the moment and killed Renna in a fit of passion?  Because otherwise, that's premeditation.  

[Gary Again]

11 minutes ago, Sabio said:

You're still using a weave that might kill a lot of innocent slaves, etc.  I mean the chance any, but a few will be able to make it to shore safely is pretty slim.  By that logic an Aes Sedai could set a house on fire and be like I just set the house on fire, it's not my fault the people didn't get out in time.  Sinking the ferry wasn't the same thing, no one was at risk, she didn't kill anyone.  She saw the ferry as a way for the shadowspawn to cross so stopped the possibility.  She didn't sink the ferry with the people on it and say up to them to swim to safety.  

 

I think you are right about the spirit of the law but the letter of the law she didn't attack them with the power she attacked the boat with the power. Aes Sedai have a long history in the books getting around the spirit of the oaths because of loopholes in the letter of the law with the oaths. I can definitely see it bothering people and it definitely is a grey area but I didn't have a problem with it because Aes Sedai and Moiraine maybe even more than most of them is often operating in that grey area.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gary Again

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Samt said:

Well, that is a thing they do.  But they can't say something unless they believe it is true.  With all of their brain.  And in all of their mental fortresses.  It may require creativity to understand why they believe it is true.  But they still believe it sincerely and there is always an explanation that seems at least plausible as to why it is true from their point of view.  

 

As was mentioned, if Egwene ended up letting Renna go, that would be an interesting Aes Sedai type thing where she convinced herself it wasn't a weapon because she wasn't going to hurt Renna.  But it takes some super strong Koolaid to plan to kill someone with something while also believing that this thing is not a weapon.  

I get why the scene bothers some people. It's nothing that particularly troubled me. But at the end of the day, that's the subjective nature of these things. I am happy to admit that it is a plot hole that leaves viewers to fill in their own explanation for what happened. I'll even agree that little holes like this are examples of sub-optimal writing.

 

All tv shows have things like that though, and it's just not one that bothered me. I dislike Moiraine's sinking of the boats more than I dislike Egwene's use of the collar. I didn't dislike either of them enough to think that it was a bad episode.

[SinisterDeath]

As a reminder, can we keep this topic about Episode 8?

 

If you have issues with staff, please take it to Personal Messages and work it out there?

If you're particularly worked up about the episode, may I suggest take a breather? Go outside and touch some grass? 

[Samt]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

I get why the scene bothers some people. It's nothing that particularly troubled me. But at the end of the day, that's the subjective nature of these things. I am happy to admit that it is a plot hole that leaves viewers to fill in their own explanation for what happened. I'll even agree that little holes like this are examples of sub-optimal writing.

 

All tv shows have things like that though, and it's just not one that bothered me. I dislike Moiraine's sinking of the boats more than I dislike Egwene's use of the collar. I didn't dislike either of them enough to think that it was a bad episode.

Completely agree.  The show is better the less you think about it.  

[SinisterDeath]

3 minutes ago, Samt said:

So Egwene didn't have a plan and just lives in the moment and killed Renna in a fit of passion?  Because otherwise, that's premeditation.  

Yep.
Because the a'dam literally doesn't let you do anything if it's premeditated. That was covered when Egwene fantasized about beating Renna to death.

It's also theoretically possible that if you believe hard enough that you're just shaving their face and not slitting their throat, you might be able to do just that. But that requires a certain amount of psychotic break that's not going to be typically possible...

[Samt]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's also theoretically possible that if you believe hard enough that you're just shaving their face and not slitting their throat, you might be able to do just that. But that requires a certain amount of psychotic break that's not going to be typically possible...

That's kind of what I'm getting at.  This sort of thing is not generally possible for an entirely sane person.  Either you plan it and follow through, or you just go with the flow and plan nothing.  Living in the middle is a weird psycho vibe that I don't think Egwene really has in the books.  

[DigificWriter]

8 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I will admit that I didn’t anticipate it devolving into nonsense.  I never agreed with your stance but I thought they would at least have a logical resolution, not the self-contradictory idiocy they gave us.  Did anyone have “you remove the collar by removing the bracelet” on their WoT Bingo card?  Shame it didn’t work like that two episodes ago…

 

And that's not how it worked here.

 

Also, how did everything devolve into contradictory nonsense? The gist of the argument everyone was using to push back against my argument is that Sharon Gilham and freelance writer Amy Ratcliffe were wrong in stating that the collar portion of the a'dam could only be removed upon the death of the damane wearing it, which is exactly what this episode demonstrated.

 

Yes, the show found a way to get the collar off Egwene specifically that got around that caveat, but the caveat was still true nonetheless.

 

 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

2 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

 

I think you are right about the spirit of the law but the letter of the law she didn't attack them with the power she attacked the boat with the power. Aes Sedai have a long history in the books getting around the spirit of the oaths because of loopholes in the letter of the law with the oaths.

Yes, but by this same logic could an AS not simply light a person’s clothes on fire and say, “I didn’t attack the person, I attacked the clothes. The person’s survival depends solely upon their choice to stop, drop and roll.”  Besides The intent is all in Moraine’s words to paraphrase, I would kill 1000 innocent people to protect the Dragon Reborn. Thus her intent was to use the OP to kill people, a clear violation of the 3rd oath. All in all not a bad episode but any way you slice it this is huge gaping plot hole. Just have to accept it and hope for a better season 3 🤷

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

And that's not how it worked here.

 

Also, how did everything devolve into contradictory nonsense? The gist of the argument everyone was using to push back against my argument is that Sharon Gilham and freelance writer Amy Ratcliffe were wrong in stating that the collar portion of the a'dam could only be removed upon the death of the damane wearing it, which is exactly what this episode demonstrated.

 

Yes, the show found a way to get the collar off Egwene specifically that got around that caveat, but the caveat was still true nonetheless.

 

 

You were right. I owe you a million internet dollars. Where do I send the check? 😉

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, Samt said:

Living in the middle is a weird psycho vibe that I don't think Egwene really has in the books

Putting the Collar on with no premeditated thoughts of harming her is 100% possible without being a "psycho".

The "leaving her to hang" part, could be the a'dam's loop hole of the Damane being unable to "lift a hand" against the Sul'dam.. She didn't lift a hand, she used her mind. She can "think" harm against her Sul'dam.

Which as we saw, she she did plenty of times in her cell when she fantasized about beating Renna's skull in with her fists.