WoT Season 2 Episode 8: What Was Meant to Be

[ilovezam]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

because he said he is hyper sensitive to the three oaths, not because it is obviously against them. 

The Aes Sedai are really weird about using the Power to "educate" with corporal punishment, and apparently that's a-okay according to RJ.

But I guess plausible deniability can only stretch so far, if Moiraine sinks a ferry with its captain on it that's pretty much a level of oath "violation" that we've not seen in the books, which is what Sando ultimately objected to, and Rafe hashed it out with Team Jordan. In the end the scene featured the boat being sucked down into a whirlpool, Moiraine stops channeling, and the silly captain goes to die with it.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a branch of ethics that goes into this. If I fire a gun with it pointed at someone's head after robbing him, but I claim that "I did not intend to kill him, I just wanted to escape - I would have been even happier if I managed to escape while he stayed alive!", is that a plausible defense? A common answer to that question is that we cannot reasonably expect to not have caused harm in so doing, and therefore my initial claim is a huge load of copium that would have been too convenient if allowed.

[Ralph]

1 minute ago, ilovezam said:

The Aes Sedai are really weird about using the Power to "educate" with corporal punishment, and apparently that's a-okay according to RJ.

But I guess plausible deniability can only stretch so far, if Moiraine sinks a ferry with its captain on it that's pretty much a level of oath "violation" that we've not seen in the books, which is what Sando ultimately objected to, and Rafe hashed it out with Team Jordan. In the end the scene featured the boat being sucked down into a whirlpool, Moiraine stops channeling, and the silly captain goes to die with it.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a branch of ethics that goes into this. If I fire a gun with it pointed at someone's head after robbing him, but I claim that "I did not intend to kill him, I just wanted to escape - I would have been even happier if I managed to escape while he stayed alive!", is that a plausible defense? A common answer to that question is that we cannot reasonably expect to not have caused harm in so doing, and therefore my initial claim is a huge load of copium that would have been too convenient if allowed.

 

I think there would be a difference between attacking a person and doing something to an object that affects the person, especially if you would have done exactly the same had the person not been there. 

[ilovezam]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

 

I think there would be a difference between attacking a person and doing something to an object that affects the person, especially if you would have done exactly the same had the person not been there. 

That seems plausible on a technicality, but by that logic Aes Sedai could probably just "set my enemy's clothes on fire" or "tighten that dude's belt with great force" or "telekinetically throw a cleaver at this guy" or "summon a meteor in the sky that's only targeted in the general direction of this fortress" and call it a day, I'm not sure the third Oath would have had any meaning in-universe at all whatsoever, and the Ashaman scenes would greatly lose their impact. There's definitely no precedence in the books in this regard, too.
 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

That seems plausible on a technicality, but by that logic Aes Sedai could probably just "set my enemy's clothes on fire" or "tighten that dude's belt with great force" or "telekinetically throw a cleaver at this guy" or "summon a meteor in the sky that's only targeted in the general direction of this fortress" and call it a day, I'm not sure the third Oath would have had any meaning in-universe at all whatsoever, and the Ashaman scenes would greatly lose their impact. There's definitely no precedence in the books in this regard, too.
 

The point is the purpose. you can't say shooting someone in the head is not using a weapon, albeit it is to achieve something else. same with setting clothes on fire in order to burn him. however, to set his clothes on fire because you are cold would be fine, even though obviously he will be burned as collateral damage. 

 

similarly, torturing someone with op is fine. as is beating (eg Rand in the box) as a punishment. doing the same thing because you want to hurt them would not be ok. RJ in one interview said beating them because you hate them would not be permitted iirc. 

[LTL]

It seems pretty clear that using the one power in the way Moiraine did to sink the ship was using it as a weapon. Unless we are going to say that cannons and artillery are not weapons, which they are by every reasonable definition. 

 

The only justification I can see under the oaths is that Moiraine believed that the Dragon's life was in imminent danger and thus she could use the one power as a weapon to defend him because to do so is actually in the last extreme defence of both her own and her warders life (and everyone else's). If the Dragon dies, Moiraine and Lan will die at the Last Battle, if not before, so even though her life isn't in imminent danger, it is in inevitable, extreme danger, so she could see it as a last, extreme defence of her own life to save the Dragon from Ishamael. To be really clear on this, you could view it as a situation similar to using the one power as a weapon to stop someone from giving you a poison that would inevitably kill you within the next 2 years. Your life is not in imminent danger but you could still use the one power as a weapon in defence of your life to stop this happening I would think. I think this must be what they were clumsily trying to get Moiraine to explain (they failed) when she said that she could and would kill 1000 innocents to save Rand. 

 

I don't think the scene was well done because it looks very much like she broke the oaths and (as can be seen from the lengthy discussion here) the reasoning for why she might not have done is unclear and unexplained. This is the most coherent explanation for why she was able to make the statement about killing innocents and then take this action though, so I would imagine it is the justification that the show has in mind.

[Joe B]

On 10/6/2023 at 11:50 AM, Guire said:

So heron on hilt on Rands sword was just a "my bad" by show for first season and that was Tam's sword that burned up correct?  I plan a full season rewatch soon but didnt remember a sword swap.

Actually, as far as I can tell, the heron is only on the hilt for one scene. It’s as if someone asked “how does Turak know there is a heron on Rand’s sword? That line doesn’t work.” So the solution was to glue one on the hilt or vfx?

[Yamezt]

On 10/7/2023 at 1:28 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

Bad Points

....

- Egwene holding off Ishamael as long as she did. 

 

 

It reminded me of a scene in AMOL:

Spoiler

M'hael vs Vora Sa'angreal Egwene where M'hael's sheer "will power" (pretty sure that was the word use though it has been a while) held off a strong channeler with the most powerful tower's Sa'angreal

 

It got a chuckle out of me. 

[Guire]

23 minutes ago, Joe B said:

Actually, as far as I can tell, the heron is only on the hilt for one scene. It’s as if someone asked “how does Turak know there is a heron on Rand’s sword? That line doesn’t work.” So the solution was to glue one on the hilt or vfx?

On scene rewatch I think brand actually came from heron on proximal blade.  Rand grabs blade as he is pushing it into Ishamael,'s chest.  I wonder if visble heron on hilt may only be on one side.  So its been hidden from audience because we are seeing unbranded side.  More likely just a prop oops though.

[Samt]

11 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

 

It reminded me of a scene in AMOL:

  Hide contents

M'hael vs Vora Sa'angreal Egwene where M'hael's sheer "will power" (pretty sure that was the word use though it has been a while) held off a strong channeler with the most powerful tower's Sa'angreal

 

It got a chuckle out of me. 

Spoiler

Pretty sure that M'hael is using Sakarnen at that point.  It's two very powerful channelers each with a very powerful Sa'angreal.  Comments about will power in that context are more flavor than literal, I would say.  That's not comparable to Egwene holding off Ishamael with no real combat training or experience (and being the weaker channeler overall anyways).  

 

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Samt said:

  Hide contents

Pretty sure that M'hael is using Sakarnen at that point.  It's two very powerful channelers each with a very powerful Sa'angreal.  Comments about will power in that context are more flavor than literal, I would say.  That's not comparable to Egwene holding off Ishamael with no real combat training or experience (and being the weaker channeler overall anyways).  

 

starts without, and is gradually being worn down so runs to get it

Edited October 9, 2023 by Ralph

[Joe B]

22 minutes ago, Guire said:

On scene rewatch I think brand actually came from heron on proximal blade.  Rand grabs blade as he is pushing it into Ishamael,'s chest.  I wonder if visble heron on hilt may only be on one side.  So its been hidden from audience because we are seeing unbranded side.  More likely just a prop oops though.

It every other scene it looks like this.

[Joe B]

1 minute ago, Joe B said:

It every other scene it looks like this.

Then in the live scene, it looks this:

[Yamezt]

15 minutes ago, Samt said:

  Hide contents

Pretty sure that M'hael is using Sakarnen at that point.  It's two very powerful channelers each with a very powerful Sa'angreal.  Comments about will power in that context are more flavor than literal, I would say.  That's not comparable to Egwene holding off Ishamael with no real combat training or experience (and being the weaker channeler overall anyways).  

 

Spoiler

No, he definitely wasn't using a Sa'angreal at that time. It was why he had to run off to Demandred to borrow Sakarnen.

 

Then the next fight with both of them using sa'angrel was balefire vs flame of tar valon

 

 

 

[Samt]

31 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

  Hide contents

No, he definitely wasn't using a Sa'angreal at that time. It was why he had to run off to Demandred to borrow Sakarnen.

 

Then the next fight with both of them using sa'angrel was balefire vs flame of tar valon

 

 

 

Okay.  I may have forgotten that part.  But the point is the same.  He holds her off a bit for flavor but is clearly outmatched without Sakarnen.  
 

Narratively, there is a big difference between giving a villain some inexplicable power in order to give the hero something to overcome and letting the hero have inexplicable power against the villain.  

[Yamezt]

16 minutes ago, Samt said:

Okay.  I may have forgotten that part.  But the point is the same.  He holds her off a bit for flavor but is clearly outmatched without Sakarnen.  
 

Narratively, there is a big difference between giving a villain some inexplicable power in order to give the hero something to overcome and letting the hero have inexplicable power against the villain.  

TBH I don't really see the difference narratively. Like I get plot-armor has to happen for drama, but it felt like they both overstepped on rules established so far in their respective medium.

 

Spoiler

I believe the power differential is even greater in the book. From recollection, the book scene, the battle included fire/air weaves being hurled too and destroyed by M'hael too and the attempt shielding occurred because he started using balefire. Egwene was also suffering enragement of the loss of warder at that time which I am pretty sure which should account for a far more ruthless approach. And on top of that, it wasn't even one of the original forsaken but a second rate last minute forsaken one.

 

However, I had 10 years to get over that scene in the book. That's why it illicit a laugh out of me because it felt like a call back to the scene (or maybe it was just me - it was a scene that really really bothered me at that time. I only read AOML once and this scene is still quite burnt in my mind).

 

That said, I do think that it is possible that TV Ishy is playing a long game. But if he were battling all out, definitely in the equally silly pile for me.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Yamezt said:

if he were battling all out

If he were battling all out, he wouldn't just stand in place throwing fire. He would use balefire, wouldn't he? Or use a more creative weave that attacked from behind Egwene's shield.

[Yamezt]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

If he were battling all out, he wouldn't just stand in place throwing fire. He would use balefire, wouldn't he? Or use a more creative weave that attacked from behind Egwene's shield.

Very good point!!

 

We have to wait and see if Balefire is in the TV medium - but I believe it should it. It is quite important

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Yamezt said:

Very good point!!

 

We have to wait and see if Balefire is in the TV medium - but I believe it should it. It is quite important

I agree that it should be a weave. I don't think it should have the time-altering properties from the books. More like it just burns that soul from the pattern.

[king of nowhere]

well, in book one moiraine fights aginor or balthamel, and holds one off for a bit. egwene is stronger than moiraine at this point, and possibly more trained in war channeling. i can easily accept the scene. in both scenes it is clear that the foresaken has the upper hand from the beginning.

 

just in the same way that if I got in a boxing match with a trained boxer, there's no way I can win, but if I focus on defence I may be able to hold off for half a minute or so.

[LightHelpMe]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:46 PM, Rhaze said:

Ingtar left a bad taste in my mouth that carried through the rest of the episode. I think the question of can a darkfriend be saved was an important arc that Ingtar answered.

 

 I liked the Heroes of the Horn and even the Mat "I remember" line.

 

 Nice to see Lan do something other than fail.

 

Lanfear playing her own games is fun.

 

Liked that Egwene freed herself but you cant ask too many questions or it just falls apart. Take it at face value that Egwene rescued herself,

 

Hopper, so sad.

 

Fighting scenes were a letdown.

 

Moiraine somehow became the most powerful Aes Sedai in millions of years.

 

Ishamael died so easily it was a letdown.

 

Moghedian was great and I wanted to see more immediately.

You only need to ask ONE question and the whole scene with Egwene freeing herself falls apart. And why not ask? Don't we want better writing than that?

 

I'm loving Lanfear too. She was rather dull in the books, same thing over and over.

 

I cried when Hopper died. I knew it had to come, but it happened kind of suddenly. Oh, who am I kidding. I would have cried no matter what. Just maybe not have yelled No! I hope we see Valda with a horribly mangled arm.

 

Rand and Ishamael "battle" was so anti-climatic. But if he did just give up and let Rand kill him, he's gonna find out the DO has a nasty sense of humor because there is no way the show is killing him of for good.

 

Moghedien was creepy, but I liked it. In the books she usually seemed rather pathetic.

[LightHelpMe]

13 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

egwene is stronger than moiraine at this point, and possibly more trained in war channeling. i can easily accept the scene.

I can accept this easier than I can Egwene being able to collar Renna. I counted, and Ishamael have her 9 seconds to get that shield in place, and we know it's easier to hold a shield that's already in place even against someone who is stronger. I think it would have been more believable if Elayne had linked with her though. Not a fan of the magic Captain America shield, but whatever.

[Yamezt]

19 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I agree that it should be a weave. I don't think it should have the time-altering properties from the books. More like it just burns that soul from the pattern.

I hope it have the time altering properties.

 

It shouldn't be too expensive to include that as you only need a few scenes to establish what it does in the first instance then for future scenes to "skip" to the altered timeline.

 

Though... I can see it dropped because it might be quite confusing to remember for pure TV viewers. (Unless every episode it features start with a "previously" snippet explaining the temporal effects again)

[Gypsum]

16 hours ago, Ralph said:

could an AS divert a runaway train from hitting people, although it may well kill some of the people on board because she did so? 

 

I love it when we get to the trolley problem!

 

I enjoyed the whole season and the finale but shared some of the questions about Moiraine's attack on the ships violating her Oaths. That was the one part that made me think, "Eh?" You can try to twist your way around it, but can you really?

 

Western legal systems account for some of these issues -- the difference between first degree murder and criminally negligent homicide and/or manslaughter in some US states, for instance.

 

If I shoot balefire straight at you, and it's not in self-defence or in defence of anyone else, then I've violated the Second Oath. That's first-degree murder, in the statutes of most US states. There's no doubts about my intent (you can't accidentally weave it) or of the lethality of balefire.

 

However, if I channel and create a whirlpool in the river that happens to be next to your boat, and your boat happens to sink, then it gets fuzzier. Arguably, it's criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter. I didn't cause your death directly, like shooting balefire or fireballs at you would, but I knew or should have known that my whirlpool would cause your boat to sink, thereby putting you at significant risk of death.

 

Offhand, I can't remember any scene in the books where an Aes Sedai tries to get around the Oaths by effectively committing CNH or manslaughter, but I'm terrible at remembering those sorts of details.

 

What I do remember, however, is that they can't attack people pre-emptively. There were a few battles where they had to put themselves at risk, in the midst of the chaos, in order to channel fireballs and lightning at their enemies. If your friends and allies are in the middle of a battle, and you're on the outskirts as a sort of long-range artillery, then you know that if they lose, bad things will happen to them and possibly to you. But that didn't seem to be enough to let the Aes Sedai blow stuff up without putting themselves directly in the line of fire.

 

Where does that leave us with Moiraine? If you set a ship on fire, your intent is pretty clear. And it's not like she was futzing around with some weird new ter'angreal and accidentally set the ships alight (whoops). It was all very, very deliberate. Same as if you deliberately set a car or building on fire when you knew there were people in it. That's second or first-degree murder, my friends. 'I didn't think anyone would die when I blew the sh1t out of their ship' does not fly. I'm not sure that the Three Oaths are quite that post-structuralist, where any 'fact' that an Aes Sedai convinces herself to be true (whether it is or not) gets her around them, or where any and all percieved danger allows her to use the Power as a weapon. 'I thought he might at some point kill me/Rand/my warder.' I think it has to be actual and imminent risk-to-life, like firing balefire across the room at someone.

 

So was she channeling fire at those ships because Rand was in danger, and she can use violence to protect herself, her warder, and another Aes Sedai? He's obviously none of those things, but he's the Dragon Reborn, so fair enough. But did she know that the Seanchan were shielding him and intended to gentle him? Er, probably not. Could she see their weaves at that distance? Or did she just guess that those ships were up to no good? A bit of dodgy ground, I think, given the Aes Sedai in the battles could actually see their friends and allies getting killed and injured, and they still had to walk into the middle of the Trollocs.

 

I think the writers did it because it looked cool and let Moiraine do something important in those final scenes, but they  played fast and loose with the Three Oaths and the One Power. Ach well.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Gypsum

[LightHelpMe]

On 10/5/2023 at 11:54 PM, Storeebooq said:

Disappointed that they had Eggy kill Renna. I think it was a misstep on her part, and she'll have to grapple with it. They are giving her anger more of an edge here than in the books. 

I don't know if she's any less angry in the books, Nyaneave just talks her out of it. And of course I guess there is the relief factor. Killing Renna is actually mercy compared to leaving her to be discovered as a Damane, but in the books they hoped it would open some eyes among the Seanchan.

The way things are presented in the show, she had to kill Renna to remove her collar. 

[Ralph]

16 minutes ago, Gypsum said:

 

I love it when we get to the trolley problem!

 

I enjoyed the whole season and the finale but shared some of the questions about Moiraine's attack on the ships violating her Oaths. That was the one part that made me think, "Eh?" You can try to twist your way around it, but can you really?

 

Western legal systems account for some of these issues -- the difference between first degree murder and criminally negligent homicide and/or manslaughter in some US states, for instance.

 

If I shoot balefire straight at you, and it's not in self-defence or in defence of anyone else, then I've violated the Second Oath. That's first-degree murder, in the statutes of most US states. There's no doubts about my intent (you can't accidentally weave it) or of the lethality of balefire.

 

However, if I channel and create a whirlpool in the river that happens to be next to your boat, and your boat happens to sink, then it gets fuzzier. Arguably, it's criminally negligent homicide or manslaughter. I didn't cause your death directly, like shooting balefire or fireballs at you would, but I knew or should have known that my whirlpool would cause your boat to sink, thereby putting you at significant risk of death.

 

Offhand, I can't remember any scene in the books where an Aes Sedai tries to get around the Oaths by effectively committing CNH or manslaughter, but I'm terrible at remembering those sorts of details.

 

What I do remember, however, is that they can't attack people pre-emptively. There were a few battles where they had to put themselves at risk, in the midst of the chaos, in order to channel fireballs and lightning at their enemies. If your friends and allies are in the middle of a battle, and you're on the outskirts as a sort of long-range artillery, then you know that if they lose, bad things will happen to them and possibly to you. But that didn't seem to be enough to let the Aes Sedai blow stuff up without putting themselves directly in the line of fire.

 

Where does that leave us with Moiraine? If you set a ship on fire, your intent is pretty clear. And it's not like she was futzing around with some weird new ter'angreal and accidentally set the ships alight (whoops). It was all very, very deliberate. Same as if you deliberately set a car or building on fire when you knew there were people in it. That's second or first-degree murder, my friends. 'I didn't think anyone would die when I blew the sh1t out of their ship' does not fly. I'm not sure that the Three Oaths are quite that post-structuralist, where any 'fact' that an Aes Sedai convinces herself to be true (whether it is or not) gets her around them, or where any and all percieved danger allows her to use the Power as a weapon. 'I thought he might at some point kill me/Rand/my warder.' I think it has to be more like actual risk-to-life.

 

So was she channeling fire at those ships because Rand was in danger, and she can use violence to protect herself, her warder, and another Aes Sedai? He's obviously none of those things, but he's the Dragon Reborn, so fair enough. But did she know that the Seanchan were shielding him and intended to gentle him? Er, probably not. Could she see their weaves at that distance? Or did she just guess that those ships were up to no good? A bit of dodgy ground, I think, given the Aes Sedai in the battles could actually see their friends and allies getting killed and injured, and they still had to walk into the middle of the Trollocs.

 

I think the writers did it because it looked cool and let Moiraine do something important in those final scenes, but they  played fast and loose with the Three Oaths and the One Power. Ach well.

 

I don't think the ships blew up, I think she holed them with a small explosion and they sank. we don't know if people died in explosions or drowned or neither