New user, came to vent.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, RitualM said:

Again, I will observe that your expectations are painfully low if all you want is slightly better than bad to be happy. 

“Slightly better than bad” is your subjective evaluation. 
 

I appreciate Wheel of Time as a well-acted, enjoyable television show with characters that I care about. For me, it is better than 90% of the other fantasy shows on television. Only the first few seasons of Game of Thrones fare better for me. 
 

If you feel like there are better fantasy shows out there, I’d be interested in which ones. I’ll watch them. 
 

But I’m not interested in comparing it to the books and picking at the differences as if they were scabs. 

[Elder_Haman]

56 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

If those numbers are fair game, then I can obviously say that I use as a metric the fact that there are 80% fewer user reviews so clearly nobody cares enough to watch.

And if what you were trying to prove is that viewership went down, that would be a valid metric to consider. 
 

But that metric does not speak to the question of whether viewers who watched both seasons considered season 2 to be an improvement. 

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

And if what you were trying to prove is that viewership went down, that would be a valid metric to consider. 
 

But that metric does not speak to the question of whether viewers who watched both seasons considered season 2 to be an improvement. 

Mathematically, neither does yours.  

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Mathematically, neither does yours.  

Yes it does. Those that evaluated both seasons preferred season 2. It’s just not mathematically significant. 
 

I’m not saying it’s proof, I’m saying it is evidence. Those things are not the same. 

[Mailman]

Mire is correct from a scientific point of view using the scoring % across multiple seasons does not give an accurate reflection of the quality of the show that would be considered accurate.

 

As an aside I have read a number of the reviews on IMDB and some of them are downright insane one of them stated something along the lines of

 

I could not stand it hated everything about the show and could only watch 10 minutes and I hope it gets cancelled, and then rated it 7/10.

 

One wonders what it would require to get a rating of 1/10. And I have seen multiple similar reviews across many movies and shows basically expressing that the show was garbage yet still giving scores above 5/10

[grayavatar]

Isn't IMDB owned by Amazon?

[trw1972]

Long term reader myself, was obsessed growing up (started reading in 1992) played every wot based game i could find, trawled the usual theory sites when i should be studying etc. A pretty similar story to many on here i imagine.

 

But haven't read the series in 2 or 3 years. And at my age my memory isnt as good as it was so i dont remember every single scene off by heart as some readers do.

 

Overall i have enjoyed the show, especially s2. The magic system and plot points have been simplified but i expected that to happen for an adaptation and i recognise the world.

 

As for whether readers are enjoying it? i would say it is split down the middle. I ignore the 'professional rager' channels online as they just scream and rant for clicks but there are definitely reactors who are also readers and hate it.

 

There are also a bunch who love the show.

 

Among non-readers, E8 seems to have gone down very well and engagement seems to have jumped up.

[Scarloc99]

Ok I will go away from stats which people seem to be disagreeing with and go with anecdotal, I only know 2 other book readers among my friends but all of them watched season 1 and all enjoyed it to varying degrees, all have, or will be watching season 2. One of the book readers read the books after season 1 and after seeing season 2 told me they wish they hadn’t bothered reading the books because the show is so much better. She couldn’t stand Robert Jordan’s writing, and then liked the last 3 books even less. 
 

The other book reader is similar to me in that they understand the changes made, agree with some disagree with others but overall are enjoying it for what it is, a tv show about magic and a locked away dark one and, in there words, you and the rest of you on Dragonmount take it all far to seriously and really should put all your efforts into worrying Anita things that actually matter in the world. They have read the series multiple times they just don’t see the point in caring about it that much (and I think the vast majority of book readers will be the same). 
 

of the rest universally, they enjoyed season 1 those who have started season 2 love it far far more, the friends who have got to the end as of today all said they got emotional at episode 8, hoppers death brought one friend to tears, they will go to war to say Perrin did the right thing, Matt earnt positive reactions when he blew the horn and generally they can’t wait for season 3 all of them are excited and want more. Although not enough to go through the books yet. 
 

So yes that’s the experience of the people I know who watched it. To me that is as valid as trying to work out what % of people went on IMDB and gave a good rating, I am pretty sure none of my friends would ever rate anything they watch online ever. 

[Elder_Haman]

My anecdotal evidence:

I have two teenaged boys. Neither have read any of the books.

 

The youngest (16) did not like S1 at all and routinely clowned it as being worse than "the 100" (a CW show). He only started watching S2 because he was in trouble the night we started it so couldn't be on his phone or game console. He liked episode 1 enough that he wanted to watch episode 2 instead of going to bed. He is now invested in the series and asks when we are going to watch the next one.

 

The oldest (18) tolerated S1, but thought it was only okay. He was interested in S2 and watched every episode intently. This kid (who can't be brought to care about practically anything) was firing off questions left and right about the lore, the characters, and actively theorizing all season about what was going to come next. He is super excited for S3.

 

My wife has read through book 5, but got bogged down and wasn't interested in finishing. She liked S1 better than I did and way more than the kids. She loved S2 to the point that she broke our unwritten rule and watched an episode without me. 

 

My two best friends from childhood (who are both old cranks like me) both liked S1 way more than I did and thought I was silly for complaining so much about the final episode. Neither realized that S2 had been released yet and neither have started watching it yet, but are both planning on binging it over the weekend.

[Mirefox]

Almost nobody I know has watched it.  Between my parents, siblings, and cousins, there are about a dozen people who watch nearly everything and talk about it.  We’ve had lengthy gripe sessions about RoP.  None of those dozen outside myself has watched WoT.  I have three friends who read the books and they all loathe the show with the fury of a thousand suns.  My kids are too young to watch and my wife doesn’t care for fantasy.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Mirefox

[Scarloc99]

15 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Almost nobody I know has watched it.  Between my parents, siblings, and cousins, there are about a dozen people who watch nearly everything and talk about it.  We’ve had lengthy gripe sessions about RoP.  None of those dozen outside myself has watched WoT.  I have three friends who read the books and they all loathe the show with the fury of a thousand suns.  My kids are too young to watch and my wife doesn’t care for fantasy.

Wonder if there is a case of echo chamber here,  i am surrounded by people who loved it and so I am probably a lot more forgiving of things, if I was surrounded by people all saying it was awful and focusing on any kind of negativity then maybe I would be less forgiving of it? This is not a knock on you or your situation it is more just a general comment. If you where hearing from lots of people that they loved it do you think you would be so negative of it still? 

[Mirefox]

4 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Wonder if there is a case of echo chamber here,  i am surrounded by people who loved it and so I am probably a lot more forgiving of things, if I was surrounded by people all saying it was awful and focusing on any kind of negativity then maybe I would be less forgiving of it? This is not a knock on you or your situation it is more just a general comment. If you where hearing from lots of people that they loved it do you think you would be so negative of it still? 

 

That's a good question, but my gut is that I doubt they would sway me.  I'm trying to think of an similar situation.  maybe with Breaking Bad?  I hated it.  Not sure why.  Everyone around me loved it, though.

 

My issues stem from how great I think the books are and how important they are to me (I still remember reading AMoL in the hospital after my first son was born and we had to stay for a week).  I personally see this show as spitting in the eye of Jordan's work and his fans.  I get that not everyone feels like that and there is subjectivity that will not be overcome.  The show would have to do quite a lot to redeem itself from that feeling on mine, though, and I don't see this team accomplishing it.  Given that that is how I feel, I can't see that my opinion would change if those around me enjoyed it, the one exception being if it became a go-to show for my wife and I because I love when we share experiences.  But that one is certainly not going to happen, lol.

[SinisterDeath]

26 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

That's a good question, but my gut is that I doubt they would sway me.  I'm trying to think of an similar situation.  maybe with Breaking Bad?  I hated it.  Not sure why.  Everyone around me loved it, though.

 

My issues stem from how great I think the books are and how important they are to me (I still remember reading AMoL in the hospital after my first son was born and we had to stay for a week).  I personally see this show as spitting in the eye of Jordan's work and his fans.  I get that not everyone feels like that and there is subjectivity that will not be overcome.  The show would have to do quite a lot to redeem itself from that feeling on mine, though, and I don't see this team accomplishing it.  Given that that is how I feel, I can't see that my opinion would change if those around me enjoyed it, the one exception being if it became a go-to show for my wife and I because I love when we share experiences.  But that one is certainly not going to happen, lol.

May I recommend watching 1998's Merlin?

 

Then remember that RJ wanted the people who made that show, to make a WoT Adaptation.

[Deviations]

On 9/29/2023 at 11:03 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Imma need a citation.

I'd wager that if you had the data, it would result in basically a bell curve. A few people who REALLY love it, a few people who REALLY hate it. And the vast majority somewhere in the middle.

Sorry, all I have is anecdotal.  None of the people ‘out in the world’ that I ever discussed this story with likes the TV show.  Not one.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 10/13/2023 at 1:34 AM, Deviations said:

Sorry, all I have is anecdotal.  None of the people ‘out in the world’ that I ever discussed this story with likes the TV show.  Not one.

 

 

and I can counter that by saying everyone I know in the world who ha watched it unequivocally loves it and can't wait for season 3, they all loved season 1 as well, they are also all pretty much none book readers. But the books readers I know, which includes someone who works in the TV industry, all enjoy it and he thinks the writers have done a fantastic job of making a good adaptation with all the difficulties he always thought adapting the books would have. So if you take your friends and my friends as existing either end of the scale I think you would find that bell curve. 

[RitualM]

4 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

and I can counter that by saying everyone I know in the world who ha watched it unequivocally loves it and can't wait for season 3, they all loved season 1 as well, they are also all pretty much none book readers. But the books readers I know, which includes someone who works in the TV industry, all enjoy it and he thinks the writers have done a fantastic job of making a good adaptation with all the difficulties he always thought adapting the books would have. So if you take your friends and my friends as existing either end of the scale I think you would find that bell curve. 

The writing has been pretty horrid. They keep trying to cash in on deaths and events they never properly built up to. They are keeping significant book events with 0 context given and it's infuriating me. They have relegated the one power to fireballs. The characters have no meaning, their arcs are mostly pointless. Even sanderson has said that they missed the mark on so many things. He's keeping his opinion fairly mild and always adding addendums so as not to anger the estate or hurt his investment in the IP but if you see the watch party on s2 finale you can see all 3 of them cringe hard at a lot of things.

What bothers me most is when people say if this isn't good find me something better that isn't game of thrones.

 

That's a horrible take. Just cus people keep failing at making fantasy series doesn't mean we should gleefully accept lazy writing and blatant idiotic renditions of classic world loved works.

 

This show is a tragedy and everyone but a few of the actors should feel terrible about what they have put out in Jordan's name. 

 

I can write a novel on how much stupid lazy bad writing is going on. Sanderson even said that the dumb moraine family drama that has nothing to do with the books or anything important on the story costs many scenes that could have been better spent on properly advancing the main character acs..

 

It's bad writing. It's bad tv. Raf should be ashamed.

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, RitualM said:

The writing has been pretty horrid. They keep trying to cash in on deaths and events they never properly built up to. They are keeping significant book events with 0 context given and it's infuriating me. They have relegated the one power to fireballs. The characters have no meaning, their arcs are mostly pointless. Even sanderson has said that they missed the mark on so many things. He's keeping his opinion fairly mild and always adding addendums so as not to anger the estate or hurt his investment in the IP but if you see the watch party on s2 finale you can see all 3 of them cringe hard at a lot of things.

What bothers me most is when people say if this isn't good find me something better that isn't game of thrones.

 

That's a horrible take. Just cus people keep failing at making fantasy series doesn't mean we should gleefully accept lazy writing and blatant idiotic renditions of classic world loved works.

 

This show is a tragedy and everyone but a few of the actors should feel terrible about what they have put out in Jordan's name. 

 

I can write a novel on how much stupid lazy bad writing is going on. Sanderson even said that the dumb moraine family drama that has nothing to do with the books or anything important on the story costs many scenes that could have been better spent on properly advancing the main character acs..

 

It's bad writing. It's bad tv. Raf should be ashamed.

 

 

 

In your opinion. Which is valid, but, the fact so many many many are loving it indicates that many more disagree. I accept the issue some have, I don’t agree with many of them, or have a different take on them. Are you unable to accept that book lovers also love this show, enjoy it and are not just “accepting” but love it for what it is and enjoy the changes? 

[Guire]

2 adult daughters and 1 son in law I encouraged tovwatch season 1 before premiere.  All fantasy readers but not WoT. All fantasy TV watchers.  None finished season 1.  Gave season 2 shot after I said it got better. Again all lost interest but may finish season 2 at some point.  Wife didnt finish season 1.  Went back watched season 1 after I said season 2 was better.  She likes 2 but we now go out for dinner and drinks before show and drink during show.  She is team Forsaken and Egwene.  She dislikes Lan, Moraine, Aes Sedai, and warders. Finds male EF underwhelming. 3 teenage sons watched part of season 1 then stopped.  Part of sesson 2 then stopped.  

 

My gay uncle and his adult kids watch but about where I am. They find show decent but not great.  Coworker's husband and his friends grew up reading WoT together.  They are hate watching show and book cloaking online. She likes some of female characters but wouldn't keep watching if husband wasn't.  Another coworker started watching with non binary 20 year old kid after they read some positive reviews online. They thought season 1 was ok but havent finished season 2 yet. My female friend from army that started reading books with me in 1991 likes Egwene and Nyn, doesn't like Mat and Perrin( her book favorites) and not big fan of adaptation choices.  I have not encountered any chatter in the wild from friends at work or family about show other than ones mentioned.  I did and do hear about GoT, HoD, and some Witcher talk.

 

So maybe I would enjoy more if people around me loved show and wanted to talk about.  For me just too many dead end story threads and missed potential wow emotional moments because I dont care about characters the same as in books.  Not being invested makes many of dumb things TV shows  always do stick out and irritate me. Also if we do get 8 seasons I may need a liver transplant.

[DigificWriter]

5 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Are you unable to accept that book lovers also love this show, enjoy it and are not just “accepting” but love it for what it is and enjoy the changes? 

Judging by both this thread and his/her/their other thread (Season 2 finale was so cringy, how are you all not upset? (Spoilers)), the answer to that question is 'Yes'.

Edited October 15, 2023 by DigificWriter

[notpropaganda73]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:41 PM, Elder_Haman said:

She loved S2 to the point that she broke our unwritten rule and watched an episode without me. 

 

I'm sorry you suffered that betrayal, I hope you guys can work it out 😅

[notpropaganda73]

My anecdotal feedback is I only know three others watching the show:

 

- My partner, has never read the books. Enjoys the show but is completely lost at times. I think the long gap from S1 to S2 didn't help. She loved S1 up to the finale. Nynaeve is her favourite character overall but felt like she didn't get anything to do in the second half of S2. Every time any Forsaken is on screen she's creeped out and hates them (in a "they're very good villains" sort of way). She picks up on my reactions so knows I'm not happy with Rand's journey so far - to her she likes the overall story and that they all seem important. Hated the Seanchan (again, in a good-villain way). She was bowled over by the Liandrin DF reveal. And Barthanes. Basically any time there's been a DF reveal she's been like WHAAAAAT hahaha

 

- My best friend, read the books along with me years and years ago. He works in film and TV. Has a bad memory generally so wouldn't be close to loads of the details from the books. His favourite thing about the series was worldbuilding. Enjoyed S1 up to the last two episodes. Wasn't really fussed about watching S2 but I told him it was better than S1. He started watching it a couple weeks ago, but I haven't heard what he thinks of it so far. In general for S1 he was pretty forgiving of changes (mostly because he couldn't remember big details), and as someone who worked on film and TV through COVID I think he was very very forgiving of general production issues. His biggest worry before watching any of it was the unknown actors being bad, as in the EF5 especially, and he was pleasantly surprised with them. We're catching up this weekend so will find out what he thinks of S2. 

 

- Another old friend, was just as obsessed with the books as me. She loves the show. Loves Egwene and Lan (??!??!! that one baffles me hahaha). Loves all the Forsaken and how the show is showing us a lot of the grey in between rather than straight up Light vs Dark. Her main annoyance is that Padan Fain isn't "f-ed up enough". Says she wanted to rewatch S1 and S2 as soon as she finished the finale. Definitely more on board with the show generally than I am I think. But we haven't had proper in depth chats about it, just some texts after the finale for both S1 & S2. 

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Her main annoyance is that Padan Fain isn't "f-ed up enough".

That comes down to screen time...

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

That comes down to screen time...

To be fair book 2 we see hints of it but don't truly see what he is able to do, and certainly have no idea that he will become the evil zombie making fog man he does at the very end, 

 

hmmmm maybe Rafe should just have him killed in Season 3 and be done with it 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Scarloc99

[DaddyFinn]

27 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

To be fair book 2 we see hints of it but don't truly see what he is able to do, and certainly have no idea that he will become the evil zombie making fog man he does at the very end, 

 

hmmmm maybe Rafe should just have him killed in Season 3 and be done with it 

Show should either expand his role a lot or get rid of him. He appeared now and then for a few pages and ultimately didn't matter after the Battle of Emond's Field

[Scarloc99]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Show should either expand his role a lot or get rid of him. He appeared now and then for a few pages and ultimately didn't matter after the Battle of Emond's Field

My hope always was he would replace the darklord in his prison, the big reveal being there is no creator, the dark lord is not some supernatural being from creation, it is just the evil from the last turning that got put in a prison, and so the next turning will be fighting that evil not the dark lord as he was last turning (zombie apocalypse anyone).