WoT Season 2 Episode 5: Damane

[DigificWriter]

@SinisterDeath My point of view on this is borne of insights I've gained into the general processes and nuances of how television storytelling (and writing) works.

 

Most WoT viewers are likely to be non-readers and are, if they have any familiarity at all with television storytelling on even just a basic level (IOW, if they've ever watched scripted TV), unlikely, IMO, to question or even think about questioning the logistics of Liandrin taking her captives out of the city.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Mirefox]

If I've been living for years as a member of a secret evil society, do you know what I 100% don't do?  I don't kidnap someone to sell into slavery, thus completely revealing myself, then give them a chance to escape and implicate me.

[SinisterDeath]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

My point of view on this is borne of insights I've gained into the general processes and nuances of how television storytelling (and writing) works.

And my POV is from someone who watches TV Shows and Movies.

Believe it or not, Writers may not understand audiences...

 

Quote

unlikely, IMO, to question or even think about questioning the logistics of Liandrin taking her captives out of the city.

And again, I think you're highly underestimating the intelligence of the average viewer.

Right on point for the intelligence of the average Investor/Producer though...

[Mirefox]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

And my POV is from someone who watches TV Shows and Movies.

Believe it or not, Writers may not understand audiences...

 

And again, I think you're highly underestimating the intelligence of the average viewer.

Right on point for the intelligence of the average investor though. 

 

I have to chime in and say I with @SinisterDeath, here.  Not everything needs to be spelled out at all times, but the greater logistical difficulty of something, the more information the audience needs.  Viewers are intelligent; they notice things.  Detail is important.  This isn't a case of someone being knocked out on the road and waking up at a campfire - this is three women somehow being secreted out of what is ostensibly the most important location in the world.  

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Mirefox said:

 

I have to chime in and say I with @SinisterDeath, here.  Not everything needs to be spelled out at all times, but the greater logistical difficulty of something, the more information the audience needs.  Viewers are intelligent; they notice things.  Detail is important.  This isn't a case of someone being knocked out on the road and waking up at a campfire - this is three women somehow being secreted out of what is ostensibly the most important location in the world.  

Yep.

Now if the future episodes with detective Verin explain how Liandrin secreted the girls out of Tar Valon by ferreting information out of Guards, tracing her path through the city, figuring out the secret Dark Friend network in Tar Valon?

Yeah, I'll be happy as a Clam. But right now, I have questions for Liandrin!

[DigificWriter]

5 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

 

I have to chime in and say I with @SinisterDeath, here. 

 

Fair enough, and "to each their own".

 

 

[Agitel]

I'll chime into that discussion and say I notice those types of gaps in shows and laugh about it. Some of it's fine, but I can accept it. Writers who stretch it too far (GOT S7-8) start ruining the quality of their show.

 

My dad, however, wouldn't even notice or ask about it at all, I imagine many viewers are like this.

 

But there are times to skip over it and times to cover it. For example, there's a sequence in the Witcher where Geralt leaves his horse, does things, then he has the horse later. We didn't need to be shown him deliberately going back to get his horse. Readers are smart enough to make the leap.

 

Liandrin in the ways? I might crack a joke about it but I don't think it's an egregious case at all, and that's time that would have had to have been taken from elsewhere.

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Liandrin in the ways? I might crack a joke about it but I don't think it's an egregious case at all, and that's time that would have had to have been taken from elsewhere.

And that's why I'm holding out hope that we'll get that as part of Verin's investigation.

 

We had part of it with Sheriam being under a "weave of compulsion".
That alone has me asking. Wait, how the bloody hell did she have time to get back up stairs, do that, then go down?! She had to have had help... Help... like a network of Friends. Dark Friends...

If we don't get something like that, then it feels like a cheap cop-out to the more astute viewer to have not at least got a mini scene where she at least pays off a guard as she leaves the tower with 3 covered horses... or using a secret Way Gate in Tar Valon...

*edit*
added last paragraph

[DreadLord31]

34 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Fair enough, and "to each their own".

 

This is what I most dislike about Post-Moderism's view of ideas. Some things are people's preferences and POV. Things like: "I like this show." "I don't like this show." For that, this is a legit comment.

 

But some things are beyond one individual's knowledge, but have an objectively true or false answer in reality, you just don't know it personally. For this, you'd need some solid evidence from studies/survey's of TV viewers to have an informed opinion. Things like: most Tv viewers notice details and are bothered by unrealistic plot-holes in a story or most Tv viewers don't care about non-essential to the plot details. 

Some things are objectively and flatly true or false. One person is right, and one person is wrong; and we don't have to pretend to be all nice and 'agree to disagree'; with these types of claims, there is A RIGHT or TRUE answer. For example, the show is using misdirection (which is a synonym for 'fake out') quite a bit. That's TRUE. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is or how much Tv you watch, that just IS. You can say, "I don't think so." "I don't feel that's true." or "To each their own." It still doesn't change that that IS. 

 

Now, let me add. I appreciate debates and discussion. I love that you love WoT enough to be on forum like this and post. I like your ideas. They make me think. I hope you take this comment in that same spirit. 

[DreadLord31]

I'm not as bothered by Liandrin just moves three girls out of TV and through the Ways as I am by these small non-essential weird writing decisions (that I noticed immediately):

 

A) Moiraine is suppose to be clever - why in the world would you need to kill a horse so Lanfear can't follow, simply bring that horse with you, unsaddled, and then you have a fresher horse to go faster/further. Unnecessary and didn't make sense.

B) Lanfear (seemingly without channeling) Matrix shuts the stable-woman's mouth (are we to believe, permanently?) in the real world? What are the extent to Lanfear's real world abilities? 

C) we saw how Uno died ... they then put his head back together and put in him in a cage? Ok... seems like you just needed a reason for Perrin to be in Atawan's Mill. 

D) the Seanchan High Lord's have "voices" but then they publicly speak anyways -- seems like you need them to have lines because it's a Tv Show but you want to give a nod to the book readers. 

E) random yellow warder knocks the girls out by bashing them into walls (but then he's the good guy?) ... seems like another 'fake-out'! lol 

 

But in other news. On my second rewatch ... I'm now CONVINCED, we're going to get FLicker FLicker. You know why?! 

 

 

[Kaleb]

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I'm not as bothered by Liandrin just moves three girls out of TV and through the Ways as I am by these small non-essential weird writing decisions (that I noticed immediately):

 

A) Moiraine is suppose to be clever - why in the world would you need to kill a horse so Lanfear can't follow, simply bring that horse with you, unsaddled, and then you have a fresher horse to go faster/further. Unnecessary and didn't make sense.

B) Lanfear (seemingly without channeling) Matrix shuts the stable-woman's mouth (are we to believe, permanently?) in the real world? What are the extent to Lanfear's real world abilities? 

C) we saw how Uno died ... they then put his head back together and put in him in a cage? Ok... seems like you just needed a reason for Perrin to be in Atawan's Mill. 

D) the Seanchan High Lord's have "voices" but then they publicly speak anyways -- seems like you need them to have lines because it's a Tv Show but you want to give a nod to the book readers. 

E) random yellow warder knocks the girls out by bashing them into walls (but then he's the good guy?) ... seems like another 'fake-out'! lol 

 

But in other news. On my second rewatch ... I'm now CONVINCED, we're going to get FLicker FLicker. You know why?! 

 

 

 

A) Moiraine's plan was the double-back, killing the horse convinced Lanfear she was trying to outrun her instead.

B) Dang, I thought she was killing that lady with some Air-wrought pressure torture or suffocation! Lanfear can hurt people in any way she damn well pleases.

C) Yeah, the Uno burial feint should have been followed through for it to land better. Surely Bornhald would have allowed Perrin to bury him? Though it could easily lead to a confrontation with Valda...

D) Seanchan hierarchy seemed difficult to follow in the books too, like they were total sticklers for protocol -- unless they didn't want to. Which was used as a power move often enough, like the underling would be questioning whether they were being honored or were about to be killed.

E) No issues here.

 

#flickerflickerherewecome

[Pandemonium]

10 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

I'm now convinced that Verin is taking the Cadsuane role and Liandrin will take over Verin's "Background". Honestly, I'm good with this as both Fleetwood and Syal are absolutely killing it as Liandrin and Verin respectively. Previous to the news this last week and this episode I wouldn't have leaned this way so heavily as I thought for sure the casting of Shohreh Aghdashloo meant her as Cadsuane but now, unless they're screwing with us, it looks like she is actually going to play Elaida, I'm 100% seeing these changes. Liandrin releasing Nyneave as she was leaving is very akin for me to Verin's extra help she gave Egwene to hunt the Black sisters in the books.

Verin as a darkfriend is too juicy to take out and we already saw her 2 notebooks.  Since Cadsuane was mentioned I imagine we will get her eventually.  Liandrin being something more than straight comic evil is great and she seems to be a favorite

[DreadLord31]

30 minutes ago, Kaleb said:

A) Moiraine's plan was the double-back, killing the horse convinced Lanfear she was trying to outrun her instead.

B) Dang, I thought she was killing that lady with some Air-wrought pressure torture or suffocation! Lanfear can hurt people in any way she damn well pleases.

 

If you wanted to outrun the person, you'd bring the horse with - then you have a second horse to jump on when the first gets tired. 

The dialogue makes it seem she is keeping the lady from "talking" forever: timestamp is 20:50ish and it goes: "Very good, my lady. I won't tell anybody you're looking for them."

Lanfear: Oh, I know you won't. She then wickedly smiles as it looks like (well exactly like the scene in the first Matrix movie where Neo is interrogated by Smith). 

 

Ah yes, why flicker, flicker!

Because - when Lanfear rides by whipping the horse with power, the camera pauses on a STONE with Old Tongue writing on it. And I'm 80% certain, that's our Portal Stone! Though it'd be great if somebody could screenshot that and translate it. I believe the time-stamp is 11:43. @SinisterDeath who do we know who translates Old Tongue writing?

Edited September 15, 2023 by DreadLord31

[SinisterDeath]

18 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Ah yes, why flicker, flicker!

Because - when Lanfear rides by whipping the horse with power, the camera pauses on a STONE with Old Tongue writing on it. And I'm 80% certain, that's our Portal Stone! Though it'd be great if somebody could screenshot that and translate it. I believe the time-stamp is 11:43. @SinisterDeath who do we know who translates Old Tongue writing?

/sigh


Here's some more tweaking

[DreadLord31]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

/sigh


Here's some more tweaking

 

Love it. Now, who can translate? Where's Verin at? 

[mogi68]

6 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Love it. Now, who can translate? Where's Verin at? 

The same stone (or a similar one) was in Season 1 and iirc was just a signpost for Tar Valon

[Rhaze]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

@SinisterDeath My point of view on this is borne of insights I've gained into the general processes and nuances of how television storytelling (and writing) works.

 

Most WoT viewers are likely to be non-readers and are, if they have any familiarity at all with television storytelling on even just a basic level (IOW, if they've ever watched scripted TV), unlikely, IMO, to question or even think about questioning the logistics of Liandrin taking her captives out of the city.

 

you do realize the vast majority of tv watchers have complained for several years at least about the quality of writing. Writers have been hacks in most cases in most shows, so I dont know if using the "writer" angle is helping you at all. Writing has been the biggest issue with most tv shows and movies.

 

 I personally didnt question how she got them into the ways, but I wouldnt be surprised to see others questions it. Waiting for everyday negros to drop their review. One of the reasons I like them so much is seeing non-book readers speculating and asking questions.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Rhaze

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

I doubt that most non-readers watching the show will have even thought to ask the question of how, logistically,  she got them from the Tower to the Ways.

 

3 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

This is something that is going to have people watching the show look sideways and go, wait how the hell did she get them out of the city?

what's so mysterious about it? liandrin is an aes sedai, in tar valon. she could walk around the city with a cart full of corpses, wave her ring around and nobody would ask questions - except perhaps "how may I be of help, aes sedai?"

but even if she was a normal person, throw the unconscious girls in a cart, cover them with some sacs of mundane goods, and she can leave the city like any other merchant.

or, just like there are secret passages out of the tower, there may be secret passages out of the city too.

 

really, getting the girls out of the city is the most easily explainable mystery. everyone wondering about it should come up with a half dozen reasonable explanations in a minute. it's not worth spending screen time over it.

if we want to investigate logistic mysteries, I am far more concerned about how a massive city can apparently exhist amid mountainous wilderness with no farms in sight and still get food.

 

 

P.S. won't comment the episode, I also think it's been the best so far but I have nothing to add.

except for one thing, I was hoping we would see rakens by now.

[Storeebooq]

I feel like we have to just infer that it was a collection of tricks to get the girls into the Waygate. There had to be some time and possible cooperation with others, because: 

1. There was the log in Sheriam's book, either there by "compulsion" or Sheriam herself (I think they did this to make us book readers really question). So either Liandrin did it, or she had help, OR Sheriam's in on it. 

 

2. Liandrin clearly had to be channeling the One Power in the Ways to keep the girls bound and shielded, yet the wind never shown...I suspect that like in the books, Padan Fain can manipulate the wind. OR, something else was protecting Liandrin. It's too convenient that she just managed to miss it's spawning. It's possible it was egged on to attack the Two Rivers folks by Padan...but...*shrug* 

 

3. Liandrin wouldn't want to cart three passed out girls on horseback through the city, because I am sure the other Aes Sedai eyes and ears would say something, and there is supposed to be a story of them on their way to Camelyn...honestly there are some plot holes there. 

 

4. Where did the asparagus come from? Did Liandrin have time to make a detour in the Ways, grab them, and come back? I think she had help in this too. 

 

Ultimately, I just think it wasn't a solo task by Liandrin. She had help from others, whether they be other Black Ajah, Darkfriends, Forsaken, etc. Which is why it seems so iffy to us, we weren't shown the assistance, just the outcome and certain milestones. 

[SinisterDeath]

31 minutes ago, Storeebooq said:

Ultimately, I just think it wasn't a solo task by Liandrin. She had help from others, whether they be other Black Ajah, Darkfriends, Forsaken, etc. Which is why it seems so iffy to us, we weren't shown the assistance, just the outcome and certain milestones. 

100%. Which is why I hope we get some extra stuff from Verin trying to verify Liandrin's story. 😉 

[A Memory Of Why]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

100%. Which is why I hope we get some extra stuff from Verin trying to verify Liandrin's story. 😉 

 

Oh we're definitely getting more detective Verin, I'm thinking it will lead to a group of blacks fleeing the tower which sets up Tanchico and Moggy for next season.

 

Regarding Moraines supposed stilling, I agree with SD that Ishy being able to magically heal her (untie the shield) as leverage makes sense. Being "without power" doesn't say much either way, I also noticed Ishy lied to Lanfear about capturing the girls - plural. 

 

Such a fun scene, they're both casually messing with each other.

[Scarloc99]

9 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

I believe a Gateway you need to know where you are at.

Skimming you don't need to know either, but you need to be familiar with the area.

 

If she was creative, she could have created a gateway in the air, looking over the area getting a good idea where they were and where they were heading... The Forsaken were smart for their time, but they were also very arrogant. 

That tactic was never known in the Age of Legends, during the last battle Demandredd states that it is yet another skill that the Aes Sedai of this time have figured out that the Age of Legends never knew could be done. 

[Scarloc99]

8 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

We don't know within the context of the show what the Forsaken can or cannot do when it comes to Channeling.

 

Most of the arguments in favor of the prevailing fandom Shielded, Not Stilled theory, at least that I have seen, hinge largely on what fans know from the novels and which may or may not be true within the context of the show, which itself has had multiple characters talking about and reacting to Moiraine's situation as if it is permanent, not temporary.

 

 

The show itself has already proven that its writers are not operating by this logic several times over.

 

 

No the show has proven that despite what the writers may say to try and fake out the book fans everything in the show matches the books. AT this moment in time there is nothing to suggest that the Books can not be taken as a source of truth for the lore because there is not a single "Major" (edited to be clearer) thing so far that has not matched the books. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Hahaha...oh, boy.

 

The black ajah is confirmed and a conspiracy in the White Tower is uncovered because of a quick glance at some shaky handwriting in a ledger?

 

Apparently the best way to get a character to a new location now is simply to knock them out and have them appear there.  No need to provide compelling reasoning, just a blast from the Power or a knock upside the head from a Warder (what?!?).

 

These writers are so amateurish it is mind-boggling.

 

It was also nice to hear Lews Therin referred to as "The Dragon Reborn" again, this time by Moiraine.

 

I'm also wondering why they bothered to recast Mat.

The shaky handwriting indicated there was something odd with it, those of us who have read the books know Verins story

Spoiler

so this is just a nice little nod that people will be able to go back on and say ahhhhh ok that makes sense, the fact Verin jumped to that conclusion so quickly, but also very cleverly Verin has not broken her oaths here because she didn't mention the black at all. She put the pieces in place and allowed someone else to draw the conclusions, This was really very clever writing sticking to the lore and allowing Verin to be very very clever. Far better then in the books. 

The girls in the books constantly went from trap to trap to trap, so I really liked how easily they got bundled away in Falme, they are out of their depth, nynave is not thinking and Elayne is the voice of reason and they get spotted. As for how they got into teh ways, I really don't care, if you are bothered about the mechanics of transportation fair enough but the girls where knocked out so we can't see it from their POV anyway. 

Finally Matt is barely in TGH so I never expected him to be here much. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Mirefox said:

If I've been living for years as a member of a secret evil society, do you know what I 100% don't do?  I don't kidnap someone to sell into slavery, thus completely revealing myself, then give them a chance to escape and implicate me.

Then tell book Liandrin this, I mean this pretty much follows the book version of events.