WoT Season 2 Episode 5: Damane

[Agitel]

I don't really see any particular lean into the notion she's stilled. Feels like it's just status quo without new evidence in support of either theory.

[DreadLord31]

6 hours ago, Finnssss22 said:

I'm now convinced that Verin is taking the Cadsuane role and Liandrin will take over Verin's "Background".

 I don't think so. In episode 2, I believe it was, Elayne made mention of Cadsuane; and I think there's some convincing speculation that Caddy has been cast in S3. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if Liandrin was combined with Alviarian. 

 

Verin really shined in this episode. 

[DigificWriter]

1 minute ago, Agitel said:

I don't really see any particular lean into the notion she's stilled. Feels like it's just status quo without new evidence in support of either theory.

 

Lanfear and Ishy's conversation about Moiraine is specifically worded to match and reinforce the show's previous demonstrations of Moiraine and other characters behaving as if her loss of connection to the One Power is permanent (Stilled) rather than temporary (Shielded).

[DreadLord31]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

In spite of prevailing fan theories to the contrary, the show continues to lean further and further into the notion that Moiraine has been Stilled, not Shielded

 

Actually, I'd say the opposite. Granted that the show doesn't seem to care much about the metaphysics/"rules" (case in point - Lanfear matrix shuts a ladies mouth in the real world without channeling?). At least by book rules, if Moiraine was stilled she would be released of the 3 oaths. It seems to me, in the show, that they continue to make you believe that Moiraine still can't lie. 

 

I think you're saying this because of the Ishy/Zombiefear dialogue right? But if you listen to that closely, they also don't give you more evidence one way or the other. Lanfear asks why Ishy didn't just kill her, and he says that "it makes her more desperate, which opens up more 'interesting' options ... kind of like with you (Lanfear)". 

[DigificWriter]

The show itself has told us nothing about how a Stilling affects the Oaths, so any assertions by the fandom community that they are no longer binding if a Stilling has occurred do not really have any effect on the show's approach to the behavior of Moiraine and other characters in relation to what happened to her, which has all consistently been pointed in the direction of her being permanently unable to Channel.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DigificWriter

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Lanfear and Ishy's conversation about Moiraine is specifically worded to match and reinforce the show's previous demonstrations of Moiraine and other characters behaving as if her loss of connection to the One Power is permanent (Stilled) rather than temporary (Shielded).

I took Ishy' conversation of "desperation..." as "Would Moiraine sell her soul to get back her ability to channel the one power?"

Well, Ishy doesn't believe he can heal stilling.

But he can untie a shield he tied off...

[SinisterDeath]

33 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

The show itself has told us nothing about how a Stilling affects the Oaths, so any assertions by the fandom community that they are no longer binding if a Stilling has occurred do not really have any effect on the show's approach to the behavior of Moiraine and other characters in relation to what happened to her, which has almost consistently been pointed in the direction of her being permanently unable to Channel.

Until the show does something different, the book lore still holds true. Yes, we can treat the show as it's own entity, but there's no reason to not treat the book lore as True until proven otherwise.

S1- Who was the Dragon. Anyone could be the dragon.

Book said it was Rand. 

Show. It could be Egwene!

Book, it's Rand.

Show. It could be Nyneave!

Book. It's Rand.

Show. Surprise! It's Rand!

Book. It's Rand.

Show. Is Liandrin Good or Evil?

Book. Liandrin is Black Ajah.

Show. Ahh, Liandrin's not so bad is she?"
Book. LIandrin is Black Ajah.
Show. Surprise! Liandrin's Black Ajah!

Show: Does Stilling break the oaths? Or Doesn't?
Book: Stilling breaks the oaths.
 

Until the show, shows us otherwise. The books hold true.

*edit*
fixed typo

Edited September 15, 2023 by SinisterDeath

[DigificWriter]

We don't know within the context of the show what the Forsaken can or cannot do when it comes to Channeling.

 

Most of the arguments in favor of the prevailing fandom Shielded, Not Stilled theory, at least that I have seen, hinge largely on what fans know from the novels and which may or may not be true within the context of the show, which itself has had multiple characters talking about and reacting to Moiraine's situation as if it is permanent, not temporary.

 

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Until the show does something different, the book lore still holds true

 

The show itself has already proven that its writers are not operating by this logic several times over.

 

 

[MarcusM]

12 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

What a rollercoaster. 
Quality wise, this was the best episode of the season IMO. Pretty compelling throughout. 
 

I’ll have to rewatch as well before I have much else to say. But my initial thoughts are that the Lanfear/Isha’mael dialogue & acting, oooh man, my confidence in the show increased a lot. I just wish each episode was consistently this good. Have this director do every episode! 

 

I have to completely agree to this.  Ep4 left me with a pretty bad taste in my mouth, but this episode made me really excited!

 

The Lan/Ishy meet-up is really the golden moment yet of this Season. LOVED THAT!

 

Generally, I'm actually starting to like how they are unfolding the temptation to turn to the Shadow in many of the arcs. While some, including me sometimes, here seems to believe that we see too many new character arcs with new unnecessary content, it's overall starting to make more and more sense to me. They are slowly winning me over.

[SinisterDeath]

13 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

The show itself has already proven that its writers are not operating by this logic several times over.

Disagree.

We've seen usage of T'a'R since Season 1 (remember the Bat Scene?).

The writers never mentioned T'a'R until last episode. So again, the book lore holds true, until the show, shows us otherwise.

Lanfear isn't a vampire. Until the show outright has her grow fangs and starts sucking blood in reality. 

[Mirefox]

Hahaha...oh, boy.

 

The black ajah is confirmed and a conspiracy in the White Tower is uncovered because of a quick glance at some shaky handwriting in a ledger?

 

Apparently the best way to get a character to a new location now is simply to knock them out and have them appear there.  No need to provide compelling reasoning, just a blast from the Power or a knock upside the head from a Warder (what?!?).

 

These writers are so amateurish it is mind-boggling.

 

It was also nice to hear Lews Therin referred to as "The Dragon Reborn" again, this time by Moiraine.

 

I'm also wondering why they bothered to recast Mat.

[DreadLord31]

47 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Most of the arguments in favor of the prevailing fandom Shielded, Not Stilled theory, at least that I have seen, hinge largely on what fans know from the novels and which may or may not be true within the context of the show, which itself has had multiple characters talking about and reacting to Moiraine's situation as if it is permanent, not temporary

 

Alright, so let me argue, JUST from the show that the show is being ambiguous about whether Moiraine is shielded or stilled: 

 

In S1, we had basically a whole episode that set-up that if an Aes Sedai is killed, her Warder will be suicidal; and we had a good portion of a couple episodes set-up that if a person who can channel totally looses their ability to channel, that person will be suicidal; but we also had in S1 stuff about shielding: we learned that it took multiple Aes Sedai to shield Logain, they could feel his strength, the shield had to be actively maintained, and he could bust the shield. 

 

We also had, in S1, a cold open that Siuan is really good at untying knots - and we found out that Siuan and Moiraine know about the Dragon and our plotting together and are lovers.

 

In S2, we saw a scene where Liandrin shields Nynaeve & in this episode we once again had Liandrin mention that the girls are 'shielded'. In S2, and prior to S2, they were very careful to say that Moiraine has been "cut off" from the OP, they've NOT said "stilled". 

 

In S2, Ep 2, at the 51 min mark this the dialogue between Lan and Moiraine: 

Moiraine: I was wrong, Lan. I was wrong about everything. The Last Battle's coming. And we're already losing it. The C that broke at the Eye of the World was the seal that was keeping Isha'mael imprisoned. 

Lan: Isha'mael? The Forsaken?

Moiraine: We didn't defeat the DO, we set his strongest lieutenant free. The Forsaken are 3,000 years old, they're the strongest channelers that ever lived, and Isha'mael may be waking the others. What they can do with the OP make Aes Sedai look like Tavern Magicians conjuring birds from their sleeves. I mean, he cut me off, with a flick of his wrist. 

Lan: But it takes 8 Aes Sedai to cut someone off. Alone, he couldn't, no matter how powerful...

Moiraine: You have no conception of the power they wield. 

 

Here's the dialogue between Lanfear and Ishy in this episode:

Lanfear: I didn't [referring to revealing the Innkeeper act with Rand], Moiraine did. I'm surprised you let her live in the first place. 

Isha'mael: [Shrugs] A dead Aes Sedai is useless. 

Lanfear: And one without power, isn't? 

Isha'mael: Desperation opens the mind to more 'interesting' choices. As it did, for you.

 

Also, in this season, you had Liandrin threaten Leana. "You know, if she falls, you'll fall with her." Sooo - if they are going to stick somewhat to the Siuan/Leana storyline next Season - doubling up with Moiraine doesn't make a lot of sense. 

 

Now - shielded or stilled - it actually, I think, just on show info could go either way. 

Moiraine is stilled and Nynaeve eventual heals her -- the show has set that up, but then you probably need to leave Moiraine without the OP for maybe a whole nother season -- and Lan still is a non-character that you're not sure what to do with. 

Or - shielded - we've had that solidly introduced - we could have Rand, Logain, and Siuan unshield her in this season and have it be very plausible within the world of the show. "What?! You can tie off weaves?" We didn't know you could do that (as a TV audience). We just needed people who weren't 'tavern magicians' to show us what else you can really do! 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Skipp]

8 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

 

Alright, so let me argue, JUST from the show that the show is being ambiguous about whether Moiraine is shielded or stilled: 

 

In S1, we had basically a whole episode that set-up that if an Aes Sedai is killed, her Warder will be suicidal; and we had a good portion of a couple episodes set-up that if a person who can channel totally looses their ability to channel, that person will be suicidal; but we also had in S1 stuff about shielding: we learned that it took multiple Aes Sedai to shield Logain, they could feel his strength, the shield had to be actively maintained, and he could bust the shield. 

 

We also had, in S1, a cold open that Siuan is really good at untying knots - and we found out that Siuan and Moiraine know about the Dragon and our plotting together and are lovers.

 

In S2, we saw a scene where Liandrin shields Nynaeve & in this episode we once again had Liandrin mention that the girls are 'shielded'. In S2, and prior to S2, they were very careful to say that Moiraine has been "cut off" from the OP, they've NOT said "stilled". 

 

In S2, Ep 2, at the 51 min mark this the dialogue between Lan and Moiraine: 

Moiraine: I was wrong, Lan. I was wrong about everything. The Last Battle's coming. And we're already losing it. The C that broke at the Eye of the World was the seal that was keeping Isha'mael imprisoned. 

Lan: Isha'mael? The Forsaken?

Moiraine: We didn't defeat the DO, we set his strongest lieutenant free. The Forsaken are 3,000 years old, they're the strongest channelers that ever lived, and Isha'mael may be waking the others. What they can do with the OP make Aes Sedai look like Tavern Magicians conjuring birds from their sleeves. I mean, he cut me off, with a flick of his wrist. 

Lan: But it takes 8 Aes Sedai to cut someone off. Alone, he couldn't, no matter how powerful...

Moiraine: You have no conception of the power they wield. 

 

Here's the dialogue between Lanfear and Ishy in this episode:

Lanfear: I didn't [referring to revealing the Innkeeper act with Rand], Moiraine did. I'm surprised you let her live in the first place. 

Isha'mael: [Shrugs] A dead Aes Sedai is useless. 

Lanfear: And one without power, isn't? 

Isha'mael: Desperation opens the mind to more 'interesting' choices. As it did, for you.

 

 

Now - shielded or stilled - it actually, I think, just on show info could go either way. 

Moiraine is stilled and Nynaeve eventual heals her -- the show has set that up, but then you probably need to leave Moiraine without the OP for maybe a whole nother season -- and Lan still is a non-character that you're not sure what to do with. 

Or - shielded - we've had that solidly introduced - we could have Rand, Logain, and Siuan unshield her in this season and have it be very plausible within the world of the show. "What?! You can tie off weaves?" We didn't know you could do that (as a TV audience). We just needed people who weren't 'tavern magicians' to show us what else you can really do! 

 

 

 

And Moiraine is clearly still bound by the 3 oaths.  When stutters when introducing Rand to her Sister and Nephew she was clearly trying to lie about this name and couldn't.   Or at least that is how I interpreted that scene.

[DreadLord31]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

And Moiraine is clearly still bound by the 3 oaths.  When stutters when introducing Rand to her Sister and Nephew she was clearly trying to lie about this name and couldn't.   Or at least that is how I interpreted that scene.

 

Right, we already mentioned that though - but @DigificWriter is arguing that in the show we're not sure if the Oaths still apply to someone who is stilled? Which, I don't believe the show has given us anything one way or the other on that ... But @SinisterDeath has, in good humor, shown that we shouldn't "throw out" the books/the rules of the books until the show definitely goes against it.

 

With our book knowledge, and assuming they ARE going to honor the books, the evidence is heavier on the shielded theory. But on show, alone, evidence - I think they're definitely making you think she's stilled. 

 

But with how much we KNOW they love fake-outs, @DigificWriter, don't you think it's obviously a "stilling fake-out"! LoL 

Edited September 15, 2023 by DreadLord31

[SinisterDeath]

2 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

is arguing that in the show we're not sure if the Oaths still apply to someone who is stilled

It's worth mentioning. Aes Sedai in the books Didn't even know that stilling someone broke their oaths. That knowledge was effectively lost... because stilling a sister was so... incredibly rare and the mechanics of the oath rod were... bound in secrecy to future generations. That it was Tradition and nothing more.

Hence, Moiraine wouldn't know and shouldn't know that being stilled SHOULD break her oaths...

[DigificWriter]

I don't view anything that the writers have thus far done as "faking out" the audience, but that may be because I'm approaching what they are doing from the perspective of having been able to, through various means, gain personal insight into the general processes associated with writing Scripted Television.

 

With that being said, I have acknowledged - and will continue to acknowledge - that the possibility of all of their writing choices being misdirection does exist; I just personally wouldn't be counting on such to be the case based on how I view their approach to writing the show thus far.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Agitel]

I laughed when we caught up with Linadrin and the girls in the Ways because I know people were looking for an explanation, but do we need one when the answer is pretty obvious? She can carry them with magic. Maybe she folded light around them, or hid them in the back of a covered cart to get them out of a city. 

 

We really only need to see an explanation if there's some big mystery on it, which, to me, there isn't. Though I will sympathize more with people who haven't read the books.

[MarcusM]

1 hour ago, nsmallw said:

Since Semirhage was placed with the Return in the books, but Ishy seems to have replaced her with them in the tv show. Of course Semirhage did arrive with Tuon so she may still show up then. 

 

Ep205: Lanfear: ..."because Moghedien is insane, Greandal is vain idiot and the boys couldn't execute a plan even if they were under compulsion".

 

This statement gives us a clue that they will leave out several Forsaken.

 

We also have the 8p star from Ep201, indicating there where 8 seals. One per Forsaken?

 

I also vaguely remember someone saying somewhere that they were 8 Forsaken too. Cannot remember whom or in which episode or sequence however... maybe someone can enlighten me or correct my memory if false?

 

And in Episode 105 there are the figurines on the table in front of Stepin. I've now rewatched that like 7 times, but I cannot get a perfect look at the table. There seems to be 8 figurines, but I could definately be wrong. We could try to figure out by their looks who is who... maybe someone did that already? From the quick looks of it I do believe they are from right to left:

 

1. Woman, rich bosom- maybe Lanfear or Greandal? I guess Greandal.

2. Unclear, looks like a monster in a fancy dress. Would guess a man more than a woman. Maybe Asmodean or Rahvin. I guess Rahvin

3. Demandred (we see a sword, trimmed beard), but could be Rahvin. I guess Demandred.

4. Woman, lurking in the shadows? Moghedien or maybe Lanfear. I guess Lanfear.

5. Ishamael (as this is pretty clear from Stepin)

6. Sammael (no doubt in my mind at least)

7. Skinnier woman - maybe Greandal or Mesaana. I guess Mesaana.

8. Smaller figurine, probably a woman. Is that a spider web? Could be Moghedien. I guess Moghedien.

 

Anyways... they would logically remove the Forsaken that made the least impact in the books and either merge their properties with the other forsaken or remove their arcs completely.

 

My bet, without even taking into account all the figurines above is that we won't see:

1. Aginor / Osan'gar / Dashiva (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show)

2. Balthamel / Aran'gar / Halima  (as they already cut out his natural entrance in the show)

3. Be'lal (he was pretty useless and his plot line can easily be merged with Sammael and Ishy)

4. Semirhage (which I believe they somehow merged with Lanfear in terms of "cruelty", and Ishy in terms of plot line). She wasn't useless, but maybe not too effective...

5. Asmodean, Rahvin or Mesaana. Since Logain will have a larger role in the TV-series probably as Rand's tutor I bet they leave out Asmodean. Both Rahvins and Mesaanas actions make too much of an impact in the books and leaving them out completely would leave us without some important fights and many many plot lines.

 

The best objection I have with myself against these conclusions is Lanfears statement above. Mentioning only 2 other female Chosen besides herself as she would consider "competent" to be woken early on.

 

What do you think?

 

 

[DreadLord31]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I don't view anything that the writers have thus far done as "faking out" the audience, but that may be because I'm approaching what they are doing from the perspective of having been able to, through various means, gain personal insight into the general processes associated with writing Scripted Television.

 

With that being said, I have acknowledged - and will continue to acknowledge - that the possibility of all of their writing choices being misdirection does exist; I just personally wouldn't be counting on such to be the case based on how I view their approach to writing the show thus far.

 

Misdirection is what I mean by "fake-outs". But I was more poking fun at how much they've done 'fake-out' deaths. Let me give you some examples. 

 

Last season: All the characters (basically) dying in Episode 4, until Nynaeve freak-out heals them. Episode 8, Moiraine stabbed through the head. Nope, that was just a dream? Episode 8, Nynaeve has a massive amount of the OP channeled through her -- Amalisa and the others are dead -- time passes by where she looks dead -- Egwene cry heals her. [Now, they've moved past this and are, I guess, just not going to mention it because it was 'a mistake'.] Episode 8, Loial is stabbed by a dagger that, it's integral to the plot, is more deadly than normal daggers and has evil that corrupts its users, the season ends with book & non-book readers thinking Loial is dead -- beginning of S2, he's ok [now, we're moving past this and just not mentioning it this season because that was 'a mistake'.] 

 

This season: Lan & Moiraine are sliced up by Fades, and faint of blood loss. Next scene, they're ok, because - healing. Nynaeve is dead - stuck in the arches and not coming back - until, oh wow - she can come back after we've stopped the ceremony? Never happened before ... guess we're quickly moving past that. Lan, Perrin, and Matt are killed - but it's the arches/test - so, is it real? 

 

If you watch commentators on the show - both book watchers and not - just about everyone mentions the 'fake-out' deaths. Sooo - I find it a little shocking you don't notice that? 

[SinisterDeath]

9 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I don't view anything that the writers have thus far done as "faking out" the audience,

11 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

that the possibility of all of their writing choices being misdirection does exist; I just personally wouldn't be counting on such to be the case based on how I view their approach to writing the show thus far.

Faking out and misdirection are "near-synonyms"

Faking out is basically defined as "to deceive, bluff"

Misdirect means "to give wrong directions".

When we say "fake out deaths", that's the same thing as saying the writers are misdirecting the audience by making thing believe the character is dead, when they are not.

A perfect example of this is in the Walking Dead, when they made everyone think Glen got killed when he was overrun by zombies near a trashcan and left for dead.

Seeing Lan's throat cut in Season 1 was a fake-out, that was quickly remedied by Nynaeve nova-healing. Had they faded to black and made us wait a week, people would have been yelling at the screen!
Lanfear's "death" was another "fakeout" that was quickly resolved.

We see things like this happen all the time on tv to create suspense.

[DigificWriter]

@Agitel I would wager that most non-readers wouldn't even think to ask how Liandrin got her captives from Tar Valon into the Ways, because it's really a non-important detail from a television storytelling perspective.

 

Re: the Forsaken, the most straightforward and literal inference that can be gleaned from what Lanfear says is that the show is only giving us 3 female Forsaken: Lanfear and the two Forsaken she mentions by name

 

@DreadLord31 Those things are not (to me, at least) 'fake-out death' examples; they are examples/instances of commonplace stakes-raising cause-and-effect writing.

Edited September 15, 2023 by DigificWriter

[SinisterDeath]

6 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

I would wager that most non-readers wouldn't even think to ask how Liandrin got her captives from Tar Valon into the Ways, because it's really a non-important detail from a television storytelling perspective.

I think you're undervaluing the intelligence of the non-reader here when it comes to TV show escapism and continuity. Little details matter.

Remember when Liandrin snuck out of the White Tower to see her son?
That conveniently shows Nynaeve how to sneak out of the tower. They didn't need to show Nynaeve going to that secret panel in the wall with Egwene to show her how to get to that secret tunnel. They can simply do that jump cut of them walking down that tunnel...

That showed non-readers and readers alike that Nynaeve now knows how to sneak out of the tower. That's continuity. 

What's not clear, is how on earth Liandrin managed to sneak 3 girls out of the center of Tar Valon in the middle of the Night past the Tower Guards and the City Walls to the way Gate outside the City that they used in Season 1... That they made a huge deal about in... Season 1...

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Those things are not (to me, at least) 'fake-out death' examples; they are examples/instances of commonplace stakes-raising cause-and-effect writing.

Cause and Effect.

Have you seen Final Destination?

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I think you're undervaluing the intelligence of the non-reader here when it comes to TV show escapism and continuity. Little details matter.

Remember when Liandrin snuck out of the White Tower to see her son?
That conveniently showed Nynaeve how to sneak out of the tower.

That showed non-readers and readers alike that Nynaeve now known how to sneak out of the tower. That's continuity. 

What's not clear, is how on earth Liandrin managed to sneak 3 girls out of the center of Tar Valon in the middle of the Night past the Tower Guards and the City Walls to the way Gate outside the City that they used in Season 1... That they made a huge deal about in... Season 1...

 

How Liandrin got the girls out of the city is, from a television storytelling perspective, non-important because television storytelling does not, by its very nature, require such a thing to be explained, which is why I said that I doubt that most non-readers watching the show will have even thought to ask the question of how, logistically,  she got them from the Tower to the Ways.

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, DigificWriter said:

How Liandrin got the girls out of the city is, from a television storytelling perspective, non-important because television storytelling does not, by its very nature, require such a thing to be explained, which is why I said that I doubt that most non-readers watching the show will have even thought to ask the question of how, logistically,  she got them from the Tower to the Ways.

And I believe you are wrong. This is something that is going to have people watching the show look sideways and go, wait how the hell did she get them out of the city?

The whole Verin subplot, speaks of a larger conspiracy. So maybe we'll get that answer in a later episode.🤔