WoT Season 2 Episode 1: A Taste of Solitude

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

Best part of S2 E1 is the fact they are just pretending that certain things in S1 E8 just didn't happen or maybe saying are bad let's just move on. I like S2 E1 better than anything in S1

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:28 PM, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Best part of S2 E1 is the fact they are just pretending that certain things in S1 E8 just didn't happen or maybe saying are bad let's just move on

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Not sure what you're referring to here, but, regardless, the assertion is incorrect.

 

They're not ignoring the choices they made at the end of Season 1 in the slightest.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:26 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

This presumes that Mat kills Fain in the show.

 

Based on what has transpired thus far, it feels more likely, as a show-only fan, for Perrin to kill Fain.

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There are a numbe of reasons why that makes no sense, and, in the books right the way through the assumption was that Perrin would be the one to do it (and stuff is going to happen to make Perrin want it even more), but there are reasons why it has to be Matt, not great ones, but they make sense in the overall arc of the story and tying into the thing involving Rand and everything else. 

[Agitel]

They've glossed over Perrin, Loial, and the Shienarans getting stabbed with the knife, and glossed over Egwene healing Nynaeve. They haven't retconned them, but neither did they feel the need to show Perrin and the others recovering, or people commenting on what happened with Eggy and Nyn. They've just not dwelled on the after effects of some of those unpopular choices, or feeling the need to explain them in the show.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Agitel

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:31 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Not sure what you're referring to here, but, regardless, the assertion is incorrect.

 

They're not ignoring the choices they made at the end of Season 1 in the slightest.

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They very much are, there where a number of things that happened at the end of season 1 that seemed to  just break lore or raise massive questions, and Rafe has come out and admitted that certain assumptions that could be drawn where wrong because it was badly shot and edited. Rafe stated that he had learnt lessons and those lessons would be applied to later seasons, and, he also, if you read between the lines, assured book readers that the massive lore breaking was a show mistake, not a change to the actual mechanics of the world.

Examples of these are the Dagger, the Circle and the Super Healing, these are things that can be glossed over and in future can behave as they should without needing to deep dive into an in show explanation as to why they where one off events that will never happen again and I am ok with that, it is like not explaining why a major character looks different. I remember people on here trying to say that healing matt from the dagger would "change his appearance" like he is some form of the Dr, no the actor changed, lets not reference it at all. 

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 This is a genuine question. Are you going to be upset if the overall story ends up unfolding in ways that contradict your book-derived certainty about things?

 

Also, skipping the aftermath of Fain stabbing people with the dagger and Egwene healing Nynaeve isn't ignoring that those things happened.

Edited September 4, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:46 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Scarloc99 This is a genuine question. Are you going to be upset if the overall story ends up unfolding in ways that contradict your book-derived certainty about things?

 

Also, skipping the aftermath of Fain stabbing people with the dagger and Egwene healing Nynaeve isn't ignoring that those things happened.

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I mean it is, if in real life Rafe has accepted that he made mistakes in how he portrayed those things, but then does not correct it in the show with a direct retcon explanation, then he is moving on feeling that the real world explanation is enough for those who have called it out, I doubt we will see a wound from the dagger heal ever again, or such a miracle healing or linking happen in that same way at all again. 

I will be upset if the main character and lore arcs change, I have always said the important thing about an adaptation is the destination and not the journey, but, there are some very very key moments in the books that make the endpoint possible. Changing them means you have to change the whole story, it would be like deciding in an adaptation of Lord of the Rings that Frodo doesn't actually need to go to mount doom to destroy the ring. I really do not want to spoil things so am trying to be as vague as possible but that dagger and what it represents plays such a key important role in a genuinely world changing event that shifts the axis of the story and impacts many many characters directly that changing it, or removing it's importance genuinely risks a change that not only says Frodo doesn't take the ring to mount doom, but that Gandalf puts it on, wields it and defats Sauron all on his own.

There is plenty I am ok with them removing, there is plenty they already have removed and changed I am fine with but these key touchstone events, and there are a several that characters we already see in the show play a key part in, that have a dramatic and massive impact on the entire world the show is set in kind of need to stay in place or the story just makes no logical sense at all to anyone book reader or non book reader and really needs to stop being called the wheel of time. 

I am trying to think of another example, imagine if in the Harry Potter movies they decided not to kill off Sirius Black, or Dumbledore. We are talking events that are that fixed in space and time that changing them impacts so much more, and these characters and bits of lore that you say might have a different arc, are kind of key to those things being able to happen. In fact I would say the fact those characters have been kept when others have been cut or blended really does suggest there arc is not going to change. 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Skipp]

  On 9/4/2023 at 4:02 PM, Cipher said:

Alternatively Rafe has Loial cut with a deadly dagger and then just pretends it doesn’t exist.  That is bad story telling.

 

IMO Jordan handled sex tactfully while never describing the actual act.  Closest was:

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Avienda and Rand hooking up in tent in Seanchan?

 

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At least in the case of Loial we have zero idea on what the effects of the dagger are on what are essentially  Alternate reality aliens are.

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 I don't care about spoilers, so you don't need to be afraid to talk specifics with me.

 

I do think you might be underestimating these writers' ability to make the destination the same while completely changing the route to get there, but time will tell.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Rafe saying that there were mistakes that he and the writers made with the end of Season 1, so that might just be you inferring things from what he has said.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:22 PM, Skipp said:

At least in the case of Loial we have zero idea on what the effects of the dagger are on what are essentially  Alternate reality aliens are.

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there is this, although I maintain they are not alternate reality aliens, I really feel that the Ogier, Elfinn etc are all from the same universe as Earth (which is the WOT world), just different parts of it, in a different turning someone might find themselves seeking out new civilisations boldly going where no one has gone before. For that matter there might be enclaves of Humans on other worlds, people who travelled there before the breaking, setting up colonies and then wondering why they lost contact with back home, or why the males channellers went insane. no clue about what is going on back on earth. 

[Agitel]

The Finn live in a realm that the human characters can't even perceive correctly and doesn't obey standard three dimensional spatial rules. I believe they are from an alternate reality, similar to what Verin explains to Egwene and Rand early on.

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:26 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Scarloc99 I don't care about spoilers, so you don't need to be afraid to talk specifics with me.

 

I do think you might be underestimating these writers' ability to make the destination the same while completely changing the route to get there, but time will tell.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Rafe saying that there were mistakes that he and the writers made with the end of Season 1, so that might just be you inferring things from what he has said.

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Sorry no just trust me when i say the events i am referring to are monumental in what they do and you can't just change them with a simple change to the story. The hobbit is a better example, as bad as the films where all the major plot points from the book where there, they might have been tweaked and changed, in some places drastically, but the essence of it all was there, Bilbo picked the trolls pocket, the crack in the back of the cave with the goblins, Golumn and the ring, Beorn, naming of Sting and Rescuing the dwarfs from the elven prison the Arkenstone. Each of those moments was key to the overall story and none was removed. Changing things the way you suggest would be like removing each of these moments and then putting in something entirely different to get the same effect. 

I suggest maybe you try and read the books, or listen to the audio books, and you might understand why what you are saying really make no sense. 

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:35 PM, Agitel said:

The Finn live in a realm that the human characters can't even perceive correctly and doesn't obey standard three dimensional spatial rules. I believe they are from an alternate reality, similar to what Verin explains to Egwene and Rand early on.

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Or they live in a galaxy where the rules are different, maybe around a black hole or a quasar, alternativley there technology is so advanced that what we take as being a different dimension is just science and or magic. There are hints throughout the books that the people of Earth are not th eonly intelligent life in the galaxy, in fact I had a theory that Earth is nothing more then a giant prison for the dark lord, the people of earth trapped in their roles as jailors so the rest of life in the universe can carry on un impeded not worrying about the danger in the dark. Earth in this immense cycle Humanity destroying itself just before they can reach beyond the solar system, the rest of the universe carrying on in a linear journey no turning of the wheel for them. 

[DigificWriter]

@Scarloc99 I've read some of the books and didn't like them, which is why I'm a show-only fan.

 

As far as changes and their ripple effects go, we'll see what occurs. 🙂

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:26 PM, DigificWriter said:

@Scarloc99 I don't care about spoilers, so you don't need to be afraid to talk specifics with me.

 

I do think you might be underestimating these writers' ability to make the destination the same while completely changing the route to get there, but time will tell.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Rafe saying that there were mistakes that he and the writers made with the end of Season 1, so that might just be you inferring things from what he has said.

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@DigificWriter Ok because you specifically said you didn't mind I will focus on one thing, there are massive book spoilers here for anyone looking. 

 

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The dagger is from Shadar Logath and kills anyone it touches that is not Padin Fain, it is also the only way Fain can be killed. 

Fain will at some point stab Rand with that dagger creating a second wound that cannot be healed, the evil of the wound will pulse against the evil of the first wound caused by Ishy which has a different evil in it, the 2 cancelling each other out so they are both present but stop each other from spreading and killing him. This cancelling effect then directly leads Rand to the answer to cleansing the taint from the male half, an event that means Male channellers no longer go mad, and ensures that when Rand defeats the dark lord the world has been reset to where it was before LTT failed. It also destroys Shadar Logath The dagger itself will kill or corrupt anyone it touches or is even near, in the books Fain goes around making people evil just by being near them which leads to a number of events in the books now those can happen without Fains influence fine, but because Matt has handled the blade and been cured he is in effect immune to its effects and, in the biggest anticlimax of the books, he stabs Fain right at the end and kills him, which destroys the knife removing the last thing that left the world unbalanced. Male Channelers not going mad then unlocks a whole load of other things. 

If you make the dagger not as dangerous then there is no reason why Rand has an un healable wound, and no reason why he has that realisation about Shadar Logoth being the solution to the taint, If you make Fain less dangerous then you remove the threat of him to many of the other characters, if you have perrin kill him and not Matt then you are saying the dagger is not as dangerous, but also, perrin not going after fain is part of his own development of letting go of revenge for the greater good. 

You still need to come up with a way for Rand to get that second uncurable wound (it is key to his whole arc beyond just cleansing the taint), and you still need to come up with a way to cleanse the taint and remove Shadar Logath from the world, if you change that part of the story you still have to achieve all the same things so really what is the point in changing any of that part of the story and making the dagger a nothing item. 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Scarloc99

[DigificWriter]

  On 9/4/2023 at 5:50 PM, Scarloc99 said:

@DigificWriter Ok because you specifically said you didn't mind I will focus on one thing, there are massive book spoilers here for anyone looking. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

The dagger is from Shadar Logath and kills anyone it touches that is not Padin Fain, it is also the only way Fain can be killed. 

Fain will at some point stab Rand with that dagger creating a second wound that cannot be healed, the evil of the wound will pulse against the evil of the first wound caused by Ishy which has a different evil in it, the 2 cancelling each other out so they are both present but stop each other from spreading and killing him. This cancelling effect then directly leads Rand to the answer to cleansing the taint from the male half, an event that means Male channellers no longer go mad, and ensures that when Rand defeats the dark lord the world has been reset to where it was before LTT failed. It also destroys Shadar Logath The dagger itself will kill or corrupt anyone it touches or is even near, in the books Fain goes around making people evil just by being near them which leads to a number of events in the books now those can happen without Fains influence fine, but because Matt has handled the blade and been cured he is in effect immune to its effects and, in the biggest anticlimax of the books, he stabs Fain right at the end and kills him, which destroys the knife removing the last thing that left the world unbalanced. Male Channelers not going mad then unlocks a whole load of other things. 

If you make the dagger not as dangerous then there is no reason why Rand has an un healable wound, and no reason why he has that realisation about Shadar Logoth being the solution to the taint, If you make Fain less dangerous then you remove the threat of him to many of the other characters, if you have perrin kill him and not Matt then you are saying the dagger is not as dangerous, but also, perrin not going after fain is part of his own development of letting go of revenge for the greater good. 

You still need to come up with a way for Rand to get that second uncurable wound (it is key to his whole arc beyond just cleansing the taint), and you still need to come up with a way to cleanse the taint and remove Shadar Logath from the world, if you change that part of the story you still have to achieve all the same things so really what is the point in changing any of that part of the story and making the dagger a nothing item. 

 

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Hmm. Knowing that now, I can see how/why you'd draw the conclusion that the Shadar Logoth dagger not being insta-deadly creates ripple effects that are hugely story-altering.

 

However, speaking as a writer and as an avid reader of other things, I would still say that this is a WAFO situation.

[wotfan4472]

  On 9/1/2023 at 5:13 PM, Vosha said:

 

She's not though?  I feel like they've made this obvious to anyone familiar with the books. 

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Yes. They even used Liandrin shielding Nyneave using the exact same line Ishy used with Moiraine. Meaning three things.

 

First, they replaced Siuan's book lesson with Liandrin, and two, they reinforced the shield, and three they foreshadowed Liandrin's arc all at once. Excellent use of a moment between two characters, and is how you should adapt a story from another medium.

 

Just by giving a specific character a specific interaction that belongs to another character in the books.

 

But, the best thing for me, is seeing what Rand is doing in Cairhein. In spite of his true motives for being there, namely Logain clearly is, that was something I did not expect to see, and I totally love it. I also love the madness, and how his one is manifesting.

 

It totally feels like something book Rand would do in the early books and the latest ones, if he had the chance to do it.

Edited September 4, 2023 by wotfan4472

[DreadLord31]

  On 9/4/2023 at 7:10 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Hmm. Knowing that now, I can see how/why you'd draw the conclusion that the Shadar Logoth dagger not being insta-deadly creates ripple effects that are hugely story-altering.

 

However, speaking as a writer and as an avid reader of other things, I would still say that this is a WAFO situation.

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I actually agree with you both; I immediately noticed in S1 “oh, dang…they really screwed up having Fain stab people with the dagger and then just magically be fine” … Shadar Logoth and the Dagger being a different kind of evil from the Dark One ARE ESSENTIAL to the story. 
 

However, @Scarloc99, I think you have more confidence than I do that our Amazon writers/producers and our shower-runner can recognize essential elements of the story and not change them. 
 

Though… I have to say that I’ve been 150% more impressed with S2 writing than season one. 
 

“Who is the Dragon?” For an entire season, is not a compelling question for any book fan & took away from non-book readers caring about half our main characters. 
 

“Who can you really trust?”

and “Why do people choose evil?” 
Those ARE very compelling questions. Good job, S2 writers. 
Hopefully Amazon decides to PAY those writers. 
 

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Scarloc99]

  On 9/4/2023 at 8:20 PM, DreadLord31 said:

I actually agree with you both; I immediately noticed in S1 “oh, dang…they really screwed up having Fain stab people with the dagger and then just magically be fine” … Shadar Logoth and the Dagger being a different kind of evil from the Dark One ARE ESSENTIAL to the story. 
 

However, @Scarloc99, I think you have more confidence than I do that our Amazon writers/producers and our shower-runner can recognize essential elements of the story and not change them. 
 

Though… I have to say that I’ve been 150% more impressed with S2 writing than season one. 
 

“Who is the Dragon?” For an entire season, is not a compelling question for any book fan & took away from non-book readers caring about half our main characters. 
 

“Who can you really trust?”

and “Why do people choose evil?” 
Those ARE very compelling questions. Good job, S2 writers. 
Hopefully Amazon decides to PAY those writers. 
 

 

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Oh I agree if they drop the ball on that then I have no idea how they write there way around it, I understand they could balls it up, the point i was trying to make are that there are key storyline moments in the series that need to be touched on, so the writers saying to book readers "don't have any expectations of anyone being who they are in the books" feels more like an attempt to say "don't tell your friends this persons back story, because you might be wrong WAFO". Then a genuine attempt to actively put existing skins on brand new characters. 

I genuinely think the dagger moment was a mistake that rafe and the writers are aware of because of the questions it raised on the internet, we will have to wait to see the next time someone is stabbed with the knife. Maybe they witness it and ask the question to Loial "why didn't it do this to you", or maybe they go the route that Fain can turn the poison on and off at will? Or maybe he was still merging with the blade, to be honest if the next time the blade stabs someone we get the expected effect I am happy handwaving on past this 

[notpropaganda73]

I think the fact they did not merge Machin Shin with Mashadar tells us that they are still defining them as two separate evils and hopefully this means the overall thrust of the future plot points remains the same. How they get there may end up looking very different than the books. I think we have to remember that TV just doesn't have the same time, scope or ability to delve into lore and mechanics that the books can. 

 

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The cleansing of saidin was something I found really difficult on my first read through on the books and needed the famous WotFAQ to help me with when I first read it. If they end up completely reworking it I won't be unhappy, in fact I think I would like a Nynaeve/Rand sort of secret expedition to cleanse saidin rather than the confusing event it felt like in the books with battles going on etc. We will have numerous big set-pieces if we manage to get that far so it'd make a nice change if it was Rand figuring it out, almost like a Batman detective type instead of going full superhero, and Nynaeve providing the final piece of the puzzle with saidar and her own POV on Healing. 

 

But I'm still a little unsure we are going to get much in terms of the saidin/saidar split other than that the difference between male and female channellers exists and the men go mad when channeling, with Rand trying to fix that. 

 

[Skipp]

  On 9/5/2023 at 10:05 AM, notpropaganda73 said:

I think the fact they did not merge Machin Shin with Mashadar tells us that they are still defining them as two separate evils and hopefully this means the overall thrust of the future plot points remains the same. How they get there may end up looking very different than the books. I think we have to remember that TV just doesn't have the same time, scope or ability to delve into lore and mechanics that the books can. 

 

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The cleansing of saidin was something I found really difficult on my first read through on the books and needed the famous WotFAQ to help me with when I first read it. If they end up completely reworking it I won't be unhappy, in fact I think I would like a Nynaeve/Rand sort of secret expedition to cleanse saidin rather than the confusing event it felt like in the books with battles going on etc. We will have numerous big set-pieces if we manage to get that far so it'd make a nice change if it was Rand figuring it out, almost like a Batman detective type instead of going full superhero, and Nynaeve providing the final piece of the puzzle with saidar and her own POV on Healing. 

 

But I'm still a little unsure we are going to get much in terms of the saidin/saidar split other than that the difference between male and female channellers exists and the men go mad when channeling, with Rand trying to fix that. 

 

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Not to mention that the lesson Alanna gives in the kitchen is clearly forshadowing that event, right?

[Masha]

  On 9/2/2023 at 11:26 PM, Scarloc99 said:

I mean the book forsaken knowledge of weaves changed as RJ fleshed out the rules more and more. Compulsion for instance would have come in really useful in the eye of the world. This is the one thing with book vs series. During much of the early books RJ was figuring it all out as he wrote it, creating situations and then coming up with t he magic rules to allow it. He did not flesh out everything before he wrote EOTW, in fact I would guess when he wrote book 1 he knew very very little of what was to come. Now with the TV show the writers have all of the bag of tricks, plus all that other stuff the forsaken do that we never see “on screen” or is just hinted at. So Forsaken can do remarkable things, but, if a single forsaken could genuinely still any other channeler that easily then it changes all the rules of the game in a way that makes no sense. Suddenly every other forsaken is at risk if they are caught out sleeping. 

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According to books, a single very strong channeler can sever other, less strong channelers pretty easily. Read Fires of Heaven and then Lord of Chaos:

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FOH: Lanfear vs Rand: she almost severed him. Granted she used angreal to boost her power over sliding, but still it was a very close call.

Then LoC: Rand breaks thru Shield actively held by 3 Aes Sedai (and 9 passively). Those  Aes Sedai are stilled all at once. And Ishamael is equal to Rand in power.

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Masha

[Masha]

Did anyone notice who were attending Darkfriends Social - I saw:

 

one female Seanchan with long nails 

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Lady Suroth

 one male Shienaran 

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Lord Ingtar

One Aes Sedai Black Ajah 

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Liandrin, Sheriam or Verin? 

One female Tinker, based on dress?? Anyone we know, I don't think that Tinker was ever identified in the books.

Possibly Whitecloak, pretty sure I saw white vambraces.

Anyone else?

[Elder_Haman]

  On 9/5/2023 at 8:50 PM, Masha said:

One female Tinker,

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Who seemed to be the mother of the little girl. We also see that same little girl escaping in Perrin's initial vision, which is a cool detail I missed the first time.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 9/5/2023 at 9:01 PM, Elder_Haman said:

We also see that same little girl escaping in Perrin's initial vision, which is a cool detail I missed the first time.

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I compared the two side-by-side and I'm not 100% convinced they're the same, but I'm not 100% convinced they're different either. Given my book knowledge, I wouldn't be surprised that Fain is turning against people who were at that meeting.