WoT Season 2 Episode 1: A Taste of Solitude

[king of nowhere]

i didn't like the fight on first watching. lan against two myrdraal has good potential - we know in the books he did it - but he went down too fast. he wasn't putting up much of a fight. i get the feeling that every time we see lan doing something, he fails.

then again, i just watched the fight again and i revise that opinion. lan brough down one of them - two if we include the one he took by surprise.

i do not like how myrdraal take their time killing, though. definitely makes them feel like disney movie villains.

 

alanna misinterpreting the question about juggling two things at once was hilarious! the face of egwene was priceless. i like how alanna is the more human of the aes sedai, the easygoing one who will talk to novices in ways that may not be considered completely appropriate; the one who will make you feel at ease.

 

overall i liked it, though perhaps least of the three

4 hours ago, Mirefox said:

the whiniest, most passive beta male delivery

...

i read those terms in the descriptions of some very specific fetish videos.

I had no idea some people actually used them outside of the context 🤨

Edited September 1, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Samt]

26 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i read those terms in the descriptions of some very specific fetish videos.

I had no idea some people actually used them outside of the context 🤨

That says a lot more about you than it does anything else.  I didn't ask about your porn preferences.  

[king of nowhere]

13 minutes ago, Samt said:

That says a lot more about you than it does anything else.  I didn't ask about your porn preferences.  

i didn't want to go into it, but if I must: fetish stuff is often grouped together. no, i am not into that specific kink that uses those words. yes, i am into other specific kinks that are occasionally grouped together. I don't judge anyone there.

But I am surprised to see mentions of "whiny beta males" in casual conversation. one thing is the fantasy, another thing is applying it to actual people. even actual fictional people
 

Edited September 1, 2023 by king of nowhere

[Samt]

22 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i didn't want to go into it, but if I must: fetish stuff is often grouped together. no, i am not into that specific kink that uses those words. yes, i am into other specific kinks that are occasionally grouped together. I don't judge anyone there.

But I am surprised to see mentions of "whiny beta males" in casual conversation. one thing is the fantasy, another thing is applying it to actual people. even actual fictional people
 

I wasn’t being facetious when I said I wasn’t interested in your porn preferences.  My point is that the term beta male (or whiny beta male) is a broadly used term and understanding that fundamentally has nothing to do with porn or fetish, and is only tangentially related to sex. The fact that someone using it makes you think of porn is weird.  It would be like if someone mentioned rubber bands and your association is rubber band porn (no idea what it is or if it exists. Just a hypothetical).  You’re clearly into some weird stuff. It’s not relevant to the discussion and should have been left out.

[A Memory Of Why]

5 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

Then consider Lan's words to Moiraine. "It takes 8 Aes Sedai still a man..."

 

Wasn't it in the books to "gentle" a man? And that was more ceremonial, I guess 8 is the new magic number.

 

We also see Liandrin and 2 sisters gentle that guy in the opening scenes in season 1, so it's not a hard rule.

 

I was guessing Moraine was shielded with a touch of compulsion, he virtually told her she was stilled which is similar to how Moggy uses compulsion, like a kind of verbal reprogramming tool.

 

Though Lan should be able to tell the difference right?

 

In saying that I don't remember it being in the books how a warder is impacted by their AS being shielded sooo 🤷‍♂️

 

Either way they believe it so Lan has lost his warder perks and is suffering from severe depression. Which makes Moraine being a pill to him a bit harsh.

 

Something j noticed, later ep spoiler:

 

Spoiler

Lan comments he didn't feel the fades

 

I could go either way but I'm sticking with shielded / compulsed

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i didn't like the fight on first watching. lan against two myrdraal has good potential - we know in the books he did it - but he went down too fast. he wasn't putting up much of a fight. i get the feeling that every time we see lan doing something, he fails.

then again, i just watched the fight again and i revise that opinion. lan brough down one of them - two if we include the one he took by surprise.

i do not like how myrdraal take their time killing, though. definitely makes them feel like disney movie villains.

Yeah, it's easy to forget he took one out before they even saw him coming. He took another out with a kick.

He also did this... outside. IN THE DARK, SHADOWS EVERYWHERE. Not a torch or source of light anywhere to drown out the shadows....

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

That says a lot more about you than it does anything else.  I didn't ask about your porn preferences.  

 

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

i didn't want to go into it, but if I must: fetish stuff is often grouped together. no, i am not into that specific kink that uses those words. yes, i am into other specific kinks that are occasionally grouped together. I don't judge anyone there.

But I am surprised to see mentions of "whiny beta males" in casual conversation. one thing is the fantasy, another thing is applying it to actual people. even actual fictional people

So uh. Yeah it's a kink thing, but it's also terminology used by Incels to insult people even though everyone knows that David Mech, who wrote the paper on the "Alpha Wolves" later retracted his own research when he realized he was wrong... which just shines a massive spotlight on the people who use "alpha" terminology, showcasing how ignorant they are... (On TWO Fronts no less!)

 

1 hour ago, Samt said:

I wasn’t being facetious when I said I wasn’t interested in your porn preferences.  My point is that the term beta male (or whiny beta male) is a broadly used term and understanding that fundamentally has nothing to do with porn or fetish, and is only tangentially related to sex. The fact that someone using it makes you think of porn is weird.

So. Unfortunately it's the two are tied together because unfortunately the Incel population that loves to use Alpha language, also use various porn fetish language like calling people cucks. One could say, it's because of their pent up energy from their lack of feminine guests because of their Alpha energy?

 

 

1 hour ago, Samt said:

The fact that someone using it makes you think of porn is weird.
 It would be like if someone mentioned rubber bands and your association is rubber band porn (no idea what it is or if it exists. Just a hypothetical).  

Dammit. I feel like that time I saw my dad's facebook posts and decided I need to have the "talk" with him..

Yeah. Uhh. That is a thing, and I hate to break it to you. If you can think of it. Yes it probably exists.

Yes, even that.

Yep. That to. Stop thinking. It's going to cause you pain if you keep thinking of things.
STOP THINKING OF THINGS!

But yes, generally it's a good idea not to mention things that remind you of porn in conversation, but sometimes, certain language just leaves you going. Wait, what?! lol
Perhaps King wasn't aware of the whole Alpha thing going on with Incels?

Light I've gone off topic....

HOW ABOUT THOSE GOLDEN EYES?

[Skipp]

12 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

HOW ABOUT THOSE GOLDEN EYES?

 

Absolutely love how they look on Elyas.  I could never really picture why the felt so unnatural that people would be scared by them.  But now visually seeing them, my god do they stand out. 

 

On a related tanget, I appreciate how they seem to be combining the sniffer abilities with the wolf senses.  I wasn't sure how you would convey smells onscreen and am currently happy with the results.

[Elder_Haman]

My $0.02 on Episode 1:

 

Love the Darkfriend Social as the open. Ishy is well-written and well-acted and they've decided to lean harder into the horror that has always been part of WoT. 

 

The bath scene with Moiraine was interesting. It was a great callback to the bathtub scene in S1E1 that I felt pretty "meh" about. The callback was fantastic, especially juxtaposed with Lan's absence highlighting the separation in their relationship. As I thought about it more, I realized:

 

This is a good way to set up cutting the Tower of Genji. Instead of foreknowledge that she would "die" by falling thru the Ter'Angreal necessitating the shift in the bond, it is Moiraine's deep depression at having been cut off from the source that leads her to be fatalistic and drive Lan away.

 

Eggy and Nyn at the tower was probably my least favorite part of the episode. But I do like the way that they are setting up jealousy between Egwene and Nyn ("10 times stronger!"). Both actresses have nailed their characters (even though I could really do without Nyn learning sword play). Liandrin is wonderfully wicked. Glad they gave her more to do.

 

I don't love the casual references to everyone's sexuality (it's by far the least interesting dimension of the story and just kind of gets in the way for me - I really don't care whether Warders bone down at all, much less with whom), but I'm appreciative of the fact that Egwene didn't stumble into Littlefinger's brothel full of totties and dangling tackle.

 

Perrin seems to be getting more to do and it's good. I like the combination of Elyas and Hurin (one of my predictions that actually came true!) and am curious about how the Wolfdream develops. (Are the visions communication from wolves who were watching in real life? Or perhaps Hopper watching from the dream?) I also loved his conversation with Ingtar at the graves - and the way Ingtar seems to feel for Perrin's loss. The boiling rage in Perrin is palpable at this point.

 

The fight at the end was ... a little too long if I'm being honest. I liked them showing Lan as doggedly determined to defend Moiraine to the very bitter end, but it (once again) seemed to diminish Lan somehow - even though he was admittedly pretty awesome in parts. I think cutting the length by about 33% would have helped. (Also, did Moiraine see Verin's weaves? And can a woman who has been stilled still see weaves? IIRC, no.)

 

Overall this was a solid, if slow, episode. The locations feel more ... solid to me (except some of the White Tower which still seems wanting in the VFX department in places) and the world feels more lived in. The plot makes sense and hasn't dramatically shifted anything important about the lore.

 

8/10. 

[Vosha]

5 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Read: "Seeing my preferred political opinions on TV > fidelity to source material." 

 

Got it. While we're at it, why doesn't Rafe make the Whitecloaks the good guys to appeal to all the Catholics in the audience? Does he not care about how hurt Catholic people might feel when the closest analog to themselves the show has to offer are presented as villains? Smh. 

Themes regarding sexual orientation aren't political except inasmuch as certain people have hijacked them to create wedge issues. 

[VooDooNut]

41 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I don't love the casual references to everyone's sexuality (it's by far the least interesting dimension of the story and just kind of gets in the way for me - I really don't care whether Warders bone down at all, much less with whom), but I'm appreciative of the fact that Egwene didn't stumble into Littlefinger's brothel full of totties and dangling tackle.

Yep.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

So uh. Yeah it's a kink thing, but it's also terminology used by Incels to insult people even though everyone knows that David Mech, who wrote the paper on the "Alpha Wolves" later retracted his own research when he realized he was wrong... which just shines a massive spotlight on the people who use "alpha" terminology, showcasing how ignorant they are... (On TWO Fronts no less!)

 

So. Unfortunately it's the two are tied together because unfortunately the Incel population that loves to use Alpha language, also use various porn fetish language like calling people cucks. One could say, it's because of their pent up energy from their lack of feminine guests because of their Alpha energy?

 

 

Dammit. I feel like that time I saw my dad's facebook posts and decided I need to have the "talk" with him..

Yeah. Uhh. That is a thing, and I hate to break it to you. If you can think of it. Yes it probably exists.

Yes, even that.

Yep. That to. Stop thinking. It's going to cause you pain if you keep thinking of things.
STOP THINKING OF THINGS!

But yes, generally it's a good idea not to mention things that remind you of porn in conversation, but sometimes, certain language just leaves you going. Wait, what?! lol
Perhaps King wasn't aware of the whole Alpha thing going on with Incels?

Light I've gone off topic....

HOW ABOUT THOSE GOLDEN EYES?

Beta male is a broadly understood term in modern society that denotes a certain type of behavior and personality.  We could have a long discussion about the history of the term and all of the different subcultures and contexts where it gets used.  But I think everyone knew what was meant by the use of the term.  Trying to cast aspersions on the user of the term by associating it with porn or incels is a cheap diversion that seems to be intended to deflect the valid criticism without addressing it.  

[Samt]

59 minutes ago, Vosha said:

Themes regarding sexual orientation aren't political except inasmuch as certain people have hijacked them to create wedge issues. 

Of all the tiresome injections of politics into Amazon of Time, this is frankly the most tiresome.  

 

"I love that Rafe has hacked apart a masterpiece, at times artlessly, in order to shamelessly insert his own radical politics where they don't belong.  And also, this isn't at all political."  

 

It's A-grade gaslighting and I refuse to not call it out.  

[SinisterDeath]

12 minutes ago, Samt said:

Beta male is a broadly understood term in modern society that denotes a certain type of behavior and personality.  

Yes. It's a term popularized by self proclaimed "alpha males" aka incels used as a pejorative. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Samt said:

We could have a long discussion about the history of the term and all of the different subcultures and contexts where it gets used.

And this is neither the place or the forum.

 

12 minutes ago, Samt said:

 Trying to cast aspersions on the user of the term by associating it with porn or incels is a cheap diversion that seems to be intended to deflect the valid criticism without addressing it.  

I wouldn't call it a cheap diversion. It's pointing out the reality of that user's word choice. Word choices tend to reflect a persons views and opinions. And if they're trying to convey a meaningful discussion, calling a character in a TV show a "Beta Male" is just "outting" themselves as an "incel".

It's not a valid criticism, because as I pointed out, the entire premise of "alpha" is bullshit science, and anyone with two brain cells knows that.

[Agitel]

I've seen the term beta move into common lexicon for unassertive people. It's not just believers in the whole alpha science thing. But I think this conversations going off rails.

 

I disagree with Samt on things said in this topic, not just about the show... I do think it's weird we segued into talk about port fetishes and incels, though.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Agitel

[SinisterDeath]

Just now, Agitel said:

I've seen the term beta move into common lexicon for unassertive people. It's not just believers in the whole alpha science thing. But I think this conversations going off rails.

The only reason it's moved into any kind of common lexicon, is because it's become highly popularized by those who shall not be named.

Everyone should know it's junk science by now, but they'd rather keep using it because it's convenient. 

[Samt]

7 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Yes. It's a term popularized by self proclaimed "alpha males" aka incels used as a pejorative. 

 

 

And this is neither the place or the forum.

 

I wouldn't call it a cheap diversion. It's pointing out the reality of that user's word choice. Word choices tend to reflect a persons views and opinions. And if they're trying to convey a meaningful discussion, calling a character in a TV show a "Beta Male" is just "outting" themselves as an "incel".

It's not a valid criticism, because as I pointed out, the entire premise of "alpha" is bullshit science, and anyone with two brain cells knows that.

It is valid criticism because the term is now well separated from its origins. (As an aside, the original wolf study used the term beta male in a completely different way anyways).  The validity of the science is irrelevant.  As I said, it’s a well understood term that means something about behavior and personality.  
 

Perhaps you have an alternative term with the same meaning.  I’m not aware of own that captures the same meaning so concisely.

[SinisterDeath]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

It is valid criticism because the term is now well separated from its origins. (As an aside, the original wolf study used the term beta male in a completely different way anyways).  The validity of the science is irrelevant.  As I said, it’s a well understood term that means something about behavior and personality.  
 

Perhaps you have an alternative term with the same meaning.  I’m not aware of own that captures the same meaning so concisely.

It's a well known pejorative used to bully on social media. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this... So... 

 

20 minutes ago, Samt said:

It's A-grade gaslighting and I refuse to not call it out.  

Why the gaslighting?

[Samt]

5 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's a well known pejorative used to bully on social media. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this... So... 

 

Why the gaslighting?

Yes, it’s a pejorative, but a very specific one.  That’s how it was used and it conveyed the intended meaning more efficiently than any alternative I can think of.  It also has no specific connection to porn, which is my original assertion.  
 

In regards to gaslighting, it’s gaslighting to pretend that the obvious, repeated efforts to shoehorn alternative sexuality into the show isn’t connected to a concerted political agenda.

[VooDooNut]

13 minutes ago, Samt said:

Yes, it’s a pejorative, but a very specific one.  That’s how it was used and it conveyed the intended meaning more efficiently than any alternative I can think of.  It also has no specific connection to porn, which is my original assertion.  
 

In regards to gaslighting, it’s gaslighting to pretend that the obvious, repeated efforts to shoehorn alternative sexuality into the show isn’t connected to a concerted political agenda.

Everyone has their biases. And you can personally reject when a designer's biases seem to jeopardize the quality of a production. But terms like "beta <insert-gender-here>" are not great descriptors. It's counter to ideas of gender equality and implies a superior and inferior form of being.

[Vosha]

53 minutes ago, Samt said:

Of all the tiresome injections of politics into Amazon of Time, this is frankly the most tiresome.  

 

"I love that Rafe has hacked apart a masterpiece, at times artlessly, in order to shamelessly insert his own radical politics where they don't belong.  And also, this isn't at all political."  

 

It's A-grade gaslighting and I refuse to not call it out.  

Themes regarding sexual orientation aren't political except inasmuch as certain people have hijacked them to create wedge issues. 

 

Edit:  It occurs to me that I should probably clarify here.  What I'm saying is that LGBTQ themes aren't political because sexual orientation is a civil rights issue first and a political issue only for those who make it one to serve their own ends. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by Vosha

[DaddyFinn]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

In regards to gaslighting, it’s gaslighting to pretend that the obvious, repeated efforts to shoehorn alternative sexuality into the show isn’t connected to a concerted political agenda.

-WoT is in our future. Our world has a lot of non-hetero people. Books had a few non-hetero people that we know of.

-Why shouldn't there be more non-hetero people in the show?

-Why does it bother you to have (realistic amount of) non-hetero people in the show?

 

[Dagon Thyne]

23 hours ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Nynaeve is ten times stronger than Egwene???

Yes, about that.  She's almost as powerful as Rand, once her block is overcame.  

[Requiem]

4 hours ago, Samt said:

Of all the tiresome injections of politics into Amazon of Time, this is frankly the most tiresome.  

 

"I love that Rafe has hacked apart a masterpiece, at times artlessly, in order to shamelessly insert his own radical politics where they don't belong.  And also, this isn't at all political."  

 

It's A-grade gaslighting and I refuse to not call it out.  

 

I find you and your opinions tiresome, your politics objectionable, regressive and poorly thought out.

 

Anyway...

 

I really enjoyed this episode, time will tell on the rest of the season, but I'm already more confident than I was at season 1.

[Mailman]

What about the fact we got a big exposition dump about severing to a group of people that would be aware of the consequences of severing. 

 

Must be especially galling to those that used the argument that you can't have an exposition dump to defend the warder episode. yet I am not seeing any references to it.