WoT Season 2 Episode 3: What Might Be

[SinisterDeath]

I was talking about this episode with the Significant Other last night, and she had some interesting insights.

 

The 3rd Arch, she believes Nynaeve confronted two fears in the 3rd arch.

The first where she confronted the Aes Sedia and said what she wanted to say after all these months. Not willing to give up on all her friends and family and put the tower above all else.

 

Her second fear was losing everyone she cared about and suffer a similar fate to who parents, because she was too afraid to grasp the one power and control it to save the ones she loves.

 

This brought up a couple of interesting thoughts.

 

She isn't a book reader.

1) Aviendah goes through Rhuhidans rings multiple times, unlocking different properties in the process. Perhaps in this turning, these arches have an expanded property of unlocking further fears if you stay in longer?

 

2) Nynaeve channeled angry. I don't know if she broke her block yet. That remains to be seen. But I'm guessing we're going to see her start channeling more due to her getting over herself.

 

It would be interesting if they've accelerated Nynaeve 's plot line where this is where she broke her block. WAFO. Lol.

 

The final thing that she said.

 

When Nynaeve ran towards the arches with child in arms, she came out of the arches, the blood on her was at uterus level. (we went back and found it came from Lan. But if you go back and watch it, she never actually came in contact with Lan! She had no blood on her, and then she did!)

 

She felt that was intentional and not a coincidence. Meant to be symbolic of child loss Nynaeve is surely feeling. 

[DaddyFinn]

2 hours ago, Graeme_UK said:

A couple of questions I had coming out of this,

 

Do people have thoughts as to where Liandrin has told Min to take Matt? I can't really think of any obvious places that fit everyone's objectives, side note if Liandrin knows what Min can do and is also Black Ajah, then why would she let Min anywhere near her, surely a huge unneccessary risk.

 

Do you think it likely we aren't going to get Gawyn and Galad, as surely the arrival of Ellayne to Tar Valon would have been the natural introduction point? Admittedly if I was streamlining the story getting rid of Galad doesn't really present any issues, but I'd still like to see Gawyn, obviously plenty of time left.

 

Also I still can't fathom why they stilled/shielded Moraine, what does it add now? and surely this just presents more problems in the future. 

 

Galad has been cast

 

https://www.wotseries.com/2023/07/21/scoop-the-wheel-of-time-casts-iconic-character/

 

 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, SinisterDeath said:

I was talking about this episode with the Significant Other last night, and she had some interesting insights.

 

The 3rd Arch, she believes Nynaeve confronted two fears in the 3rd arch.

The first where she confronted the Aes Sedia and said what she wanted to say after all these months. Not willing to give up on all her friends and family and put the tower above all else.

 

Her second fear was losing everyone she cared about and suffer a similar fate to who parents, because she was too afraid to grasp the one power and control it to save the ones she loves.

 

This brought up a couple of interesting thoughts.

 

She isn't a book reader.

1) Aviendah goes through Rhuhidans rings multiple times, unlocking different properties in the process. Perhaps in this turning, these arches have an expanded property of unlocking further fears if you stay in longer?

 

2) Nynaeve channeled angry. I don't know if she broke her block yet. That remains to be seen. But I'm guessing we're going to see her start channeling more due to her getting over herself.

 

It would be interesting if they've accelerated Nynaeve 's plot line where this is where she broke her block. WAFO. Lol.

 

The final thing that she said.

 

When Nynaeve ran towards the arches with child in arms, she came out of the arches, the blood on her was at uterus level. (we went back and found it came from Lan. But if you go back and watch it, she never actually came in contact with Lan! She had no blood on her, and then she did!)

 

She felt that was intentional and not a coincidence. Meant to be symbolic of child loss Nynaeve is surely feeling. 

In the books Nynaeve figures out very quickly she needs to be angry to channel, as do the other aes sedai, remember when she does the thing with Logain the Aes Sedai purposely question her abilities to get her riled up so she can channel. She actually is far more in control of her ability in the white tower, being able to make herself angry more and more easily in order to channel. Intrestingly in the TV show they have added fear, when in the books Fear actually shuts down her use of the power and puts the block back in place. 

I think your reading a bit to much into this, the writers wanted to make more of what, in the books, is a fairly shortly written section, a lot in the book is left to the reader to put together, that is the kind of scene that on the screen would just be massively unrewarding and is another indicator of how hard it is to take something that is so long, given how briefly RJ writes some of the key moments. My go to is the battle of Emonds Field, on the TV that needs 30-45 minutes in the books the actual battle is in reality about 30 lines or so. nothig in terms of the use of the arches has changed, what changed was the writers wanting to create 3  emotional moments from one scene, the initial walk away from the tower and meeting up with Lan (timed to match that section of the Morraine Lan story to make it believable), then the first showing of the doorway, which happens in the book, then they took Egwenes arches journey and changed that for Nynaeve, her happy in the 2 rivers with a child before then making her understand her mistake and leave in a simialir way to the books, only with a much longer gap. This also makes me think we might not see Egwenes trial, other then seeing her emerge from the arches and then maybe as flashbacks meaning if this is the only time we see someone go through the arches then it needs to deliver that real punch. 

 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Graeme_UK said:

A couple of questions I had coming out of this,

 

Do people have thoughts as to where Liandrin has told Min to take Matt? I can't really think of any obvious places that fit everyone's objectives, side note if Liandrin knows what Min can do and is also Black Ajah, then why would she let Min anywhere near her, surely a huge unneccessary risk.

 

Do you think it likely we aren't going to get Gawyn and Galad, as surely the arrival of Ellayne to Tar Valon would have been the natural introduction point? Admittedly if I was streamlining the story getting rid of Galad doesn't really present any issues, but I'd still like to see Gawyn, obviously plenty of time left.

 

Also I still can't fathom why they stilled/shielded Moraine, what does it add now? and surely this just presents more problems in the future. 

 

Are you a book reader please? I don't want to spoil anything so all I will say is that Liandrin wants Matt at the same place that everyone gathers at the end of the 2nd book, there are obviously plans afoot to ensure all the original 5 will be gathered there together because in the books they do all love walking into a trap early on. 

Moraine, if she is stilled (I don't think she is), sets up Nynaeve to heal her, but I think it more likely she is shielded and it tracks with the 2nd book. Moraine vanishes early on in the book, and then reappears right at the end. You can't write her out for a whole season, but you also need a reason for her to go away and spend some alone time gandalfing around libraries and finding out all about the one ring (sorry got my IP's mixed up there), so she isn't busy keeping an eye on everyone. In the book RJ handwaves this away a she went to Toman Head because of prophecy and found the Seanchan so tried to save Aes Sedai from them. If she is Shielded then it allows her to walk through Seanchan lands and not be picked up as a channeller menaing she can help save Aes Sedai still until the moment to break her shield. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Moraine, if she is stilled (I don't think she is), sets up Nynaeve to heal her, but I think it more likely she is shielded and it tracks with the 2nd book. Moraine vanishes early on in the book, and then reappears right at the end.

She appeared to start channeling at the end of the fade fight (weaves started to appear) when it was clear Lan had lost and then stopped when Verin and Thomas arrived.  She may be feigning in some way or need total desperation to break through the shield.

[Samt]

In regards to Uno's death, I have been thinking about what his contribution to the larger story in the books is and whether or not he really adds anything.  It's true that he doesn't really have an arc and doesn't really change.  But what does change is the way that the main characters see him.  Initially, the see him as crass and vulgar, uncompassionate, and surly (perhaps even comically so).  But as time passes and the POV characters grow and understand the world better, they come to understand that he is also honorable, courageous, competent, confident, and bound to fulfill his duty.  Uno is a bit of an archetype of the mistreated grunt who gets laughed at until he saves your life and you realize that he knows a lot more than the people who initially discounted him as an old codger.  

 

But in the TV series, Uno gets one scene where he's the butt of a joke and then his next scene he decides to practically commit suicide and gets impaled.  If the creators didn't want to have the character, don't have the character.  Uno is by no means a required character.  But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place.  

[DreadLord31]

52 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

She may be feigning in some way or need total desperation to break through the shield.

I think those were actually Verin’s weaves. 
 

The question of Moiraine being stilled or shielded is complicated and I’ve been on both sides of it. At the end of the second episode Moiraine says that Ishy “cut her off with a flick of his wrist.” And Lan then says, “It takes 8 Aes Sedai to cut someone off.” In S1 it didn’t take 8 to shield Logain, but it did to gentle him. 
 

However, in Episode one they purposely had Liandrin shield Nynaeve. And in all the interviews and stuff they’ve been careful about saying “cut off” rather than “stilled”. 
 

They’ve also “muddied the waters” with what’s going on with the bond & the oaths. In Ep2 Moiraine says that Lan can’t protect her because he can’t feel the bond; and then, like the next line is “I’ll pass the bond to Alanna if I must”. 
 

Does anybody remember from the books what happens with a warder bond whilst someone is shielded vs. stilled? And likewise with the oaths? If I remember correctly, after being stilled they could lie, right? 
 

But does it really matter which it is? Either way, we “think we know” that Moiraine can get her power back. And either way — we’re in uncharted territory right? Moiraine was neither indefinitely shielded or stilled in the books. So we will just have to wait and see 🙂 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Samt]

12 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I think those were actually Verin’s weaves. 
 

The question of Moiraine being stilled or shielded is complicated and I’ve been on both sides of it. At the end of the second episode Moiraine says that Ishy “cut her off with a flick of his wrist.” And Lan then says, “It takes 8 Aes Sedai to cut someone off.” In S1 it didn’t take 8 to shield Logain, but it did to gentle him. 
 

However, in Episode one they purposely had Liandrin shield Nynaeve. And in all the interviews and stuff they’ve been careful about saying “cut off” rather than “stilled”. 
 

They’ve also “muddied the waters” with what’s going on with the bond & the oaths. In Ep2 Moiraine says that Lan can’t protect her because he can’t feel the bond; and then, like the next line is “I’ll pass the bond to Alanna if I must”. 
 

Does anybody remember from the books what happens with a warder bond whilst someone is shielded vs. stilled? And likewise with the oaths? If I remember correctly, after being stilled they could lie, right? 
 

But does it really matter which it is? Either way, we “think we know” that Moiraine can get her power back. And either way — we’re in uncharted territory right? Moiraine was neither indefinitely shielded or stilled in the books. So we will just have to wait and see 🙂 

Not sure about shielding, but stilling in the books definitely removes the 3 oaths.  That is a big part of the Siuan/Gareth story. It seems unlikely that shielding has a similar effect since  I would expect it to come up and it never does.  That is, being able to lie while shielded would probably be an interesting/occasionally useful trick if it worked.  

[DreadLord31]

38 minutes ago, Samt said:

Uno is by no means a required character.  But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place.

Im liking S2 better than S1, but yes - my confidence in Rafe is pretty low; if you watch the bonus video with the episode he says they killed Uno so that the audience would “fecking (isn’t that what Uno said?) fear the Seanchan”. 
 

I’d bet you bitcoin to buttons that we get a lot more of the White Tower show & less of the WoT; a lot more of “girl power” & less of competent male characters. It was all over S1 and thus far in S2:
 

I, personally, couldn’t help but notice:

Moiraine kills a Fade alone with a knife, Lan kills one by surprise and then one or two? Kick his butt. I’m not sure the writers know how many Fades there were…because Verin says there were 3 in the second episode, but it seemed to me there were four. 
 

I noticed that in the first arch - Nynaeve’s dad did squat in a fight, her mom saved the day. In the last arch, Perrin, Matt, and Lan do squat, Nynaeve blasts trollocs away. 
 

Liandrin has a big-time expanded role. Moiraine has more scenes. Perrin and Matt still aren’t doing all that much (that is impressive). I mean, Matt’s still a coward who is ditching his friends at this point? And Rand through the first three episodes has basically, only, sort of… acquired himself a couple teachers? (Are we really replacing LAN’s teaching him to fight with a sword with a few comments about learning from Errol?? And Asmodien’s teaching him the power with Logain?) And then, are we gonna have Jedi Rand fight Turok at the end of S2 & Ishy & credibly believe he even remotely hold his own??? 
 

Also - I predict - Gaul will be cut and Avi, Bain, and Chiad will kick butt. 
 

Nynaeve has been awesome & Liandrin is compelling. And the fight scene at the end of ep2 was good. I’ll give credit where credit is due. And it’s been entertaining Tv. And the writing has a much more compelling question “Who can we trust?” “Why do people turn to the dark side?” 
 

But, it’s been hurting my heart how they’ve been doing many of my fav characters who I admired for many years dirty: Lan is mostly incompetent as a Warder in the show (he was the biggest, badass swordsman in the books). Rand has one of the most interesting arcs with Leadership, identity, battling mental illness, duty/pressure or purpose, in fantasy lit … in the Tv show he really hasn’t Done anything yet. Matt is charming, funny, the reluctant hero - the Han Solo of WoT; in the show he’s a no show. Perrin is the gentle giant, thoughtful, careful, loveable leader of the books; they gave him a wife and fridged her in the show - so he’s basically an emotional wreck who’s got no lines & is afraid of being violent. 
 

I digress… 

 

But, I think they’re cutting Gawyn because he’s unnecessary as a character. So that’s another plus. 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DaddyFinn]

38 minutes ago, Samt said:

But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place

That's pretty black&white way of seeing the writer's decisions. For me, they understand the books very deeply. Often more deeply than "hardcore bookfans"

[DreadLord31]

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

That's pretty black&white way of seeing the writer's decisions. For me, they understand the books very deeply. Often more deeply than "hardcore bookfans"

You gotta back that up with evidence man… 

 

And explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine? 
 

Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. 
 

Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… 

 

Explain how their version of the DF social comes even close to accomplishing what it does for the GH. 
 

Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. 
 

Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? 
 

Dude you gotta have evidence. 
Respectfully… 

 

And, perhaps, our end product will prove my doubts wrong and your confidence right… I sure hope so. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

You gotta back that up with evidence man… 

 

And explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine? 
We don't know the dagger's powers in the show. Will it get more powerful as time goes on? WAFO. I do want to know in this season.

 

Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. 
Bad decision fueled by last minute rewrites and covid protocols. Nynaeve wasn't burnt out or dead. Her makeup was too heavy. It was supposed to be healed by herbs&cpr IIRC. That scene was my only real gripe with S1.

 

Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… 

We don't know if he really could have been or if that's what (some) people think in the show.

 

Explain how their version of the DF social comes even close to accomplishing what it does for the GH. 

It shows us there's darkfriends in every culture, even the Aes Sedai. It shows Ishy's manipulative nature. Father of Lies indeed.
 

Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. 
Lan is not the best by his own account in the last book. Does he still have warder enhanced senses and strength, speed etc? I don't know. He still managed to kill one or two. If he had just chopped all of them easily, that would have been the end of their scariness around Lan and other warders. I do want to know how dangerous the thakan'dar blades are in the show.

 

 

Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? 
WAFO. How would I know?

 

Dude you gotta have evidence. 
Respectfully… 

 

And, perhaps, our end product will prove my doubts wrong and your confidence right… I sure hope so. 

Done. I don't think too deeply about this stuff. WAFO works well enough. Fandom is good with finding explanations. As you can see I'm not stressed out by the changes

[DigificWriter]

49 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine?

 

There's been no indication in the show that the Shadar Logoth dagger is deadlier than a regular knife.

 

49 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. 

 

1) Nynaeve was neither dead nor burnt out

 

2) The mechanics of how Egwene channeled a healing weave are neither important nor relevant

 

49 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… 

 

Rafe and his writers changed Robert Jordan's lore in order to degender souls. This fact has been public knowledge since before Season 1 premiered.

 

49 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. 

 

1) There's been nothing in the show to indicate that Lan is "the best swordsman in the world"

 

2) He no longer benefits from the Warder bond and the preternatural abilities it afforded him

 

49 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? 

 

Moiraine doesn't say anything about "passing the bond"; she says that she'll have Alanna forcibly bond Lan to her (Alanna) if she (Moiraine) has to in order to prevent him (Lan) from following her (Moiraine).

Edited September 5, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Guire]

The showrunners and writers may or may not have great understanding of the book series.  It is massive and people focus in on parts that are appealing to them.  What does seem obvious is that Rafe and Co are creating show to appeal to their perception of modern feminist ideals.  Thats how they pitched show and its how its being made.  Whether they will create a show that is enjoyable and popular is yet to be determined.  

[Ralph]

is there any sign in the show that Nynaeve channelled to bring the arch back? could it not just be that it reappeared at that moment - though I hope we get an explanation as to why she got a second "chance that comes but once" 

 

Re Nynaeve's channelling, she is not supposed to have access to the Power inside the Arches, acc to Sheriam. is it just that she is so powerful that she can, or are we starting to see that Nynaeve has a different type of access to the Power. Remembering that her Power deflected Machin Shin, which is also meant to be impossible - not just in terms of level of Power but that the Power doesn't interact with it in that way. 

[Scarloc99]

4 minutes ago, Ralph said:

is there any sign in the show that Nynaeve channelled to bring the arch back? could it not just be that it reappeared at that moment - though I hope we get an explanation as to why she got a second "chance that comes but once" 

 

Re Nynaeve's channelling, she is not supposed to have access to the Power inside the Arches, acc to Sheriam. is it just that she is so powerful that she can, or are we starting to see that Nynaeve has a different type of access to the Power. Remembering that her Power deflected Machin Shin, which is also meant to be impossible - not just in terms of level of Power but that the Power doesn't interact with it in that way. 

In the books I am pretty sure the instruction is not to channel because it is so dangerous and has massive side effects rather then you can't channel, Egwene channels left right and centre during her test. 

I doubt we will get an explanation, and I am fine with that, teh way the WOT is told is that the reader only has the information that the characters on the page have, there are no 4th wall explanations or descriptions to the reader to give them extra information. The Aes Sedai have no idea what the arches really do or how they work, or even what they where for, so there could be many many secrets hidden within them and Nynaeve managed to trigger the safe mode option, or did the equivalent of turning it on and off again. 

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

In regards to Uno's death, I have been thinking about what his contribution to the larger story in the books is and whether or not he really adds anything.  It's true that he doesn't really have an arc and doesn't really change.  But what does change is the way that the main characters see him.  Initially, the see him as crass and vulgar, uncompassionate, and surly (perhaps even comically so).  But as time passes and the POV characters grow and understand the world better, they come to understand that he is also honorable, courageous, competent, confident, and bound to fulfill his duty.  Uno is a bit of an archetype of the mistreated grunt who gets laughed at until he saves your life and you realize that he knows a lot more than the people who initially discounted him as an old codger.  

 

But in the TV series, Uno gets one scene where he's the butt of a joke and then his next scene he decides to practically commit suicide and gets impaled.  If the creators didn't want to have the character, don't have the character.  Uno is by no means a required character.  But to add him only to kill him shows that they don't really understand why the character is in the books in the first place.  

Uno in the book is purely a tool RJ uses to help get people from A to B, there is no real arc other then he becomes closer to the girls, who always respect him they just treat him like they do all men, as something to get in the way and make their lives difficult. His role all the way through is to facilitate, or be ready to facilitate there escape from a potentially dangerous situation, the poor man is always having to "arrange horses" for the drop of the hat, I imagine his house permanently has 5-8 horses tethered to it, "oh these, no idea why they are there, just relaxing, take them, no don't do that, they are resting, never know when someone might suddenly need a horse to make an, I mean get somewhere quickly." 

The audience needs to see that the Seanchan are very very serious, they need to see in one scene that they give no second chances. So, the writers introduce a character briefly, they get the audience to like them, connect with them in some way and then in a badass moment have him killed for a shock moment. Hollywood has been doing it for decades, it's a running joke in so many comedy skits, "don't tell me your life story or you will die" and saving private ryan for example takes the trope to almost comedic levels as one by one each character exposites there back story only to die in the very next scene. 

I think book readers sometimes try and read to deeply into scenes that have been created more to follow the ABC's of successful script writing for a dramatic moment rather then to do something deep and meaningful. Yes Rafe could have told the writers to "create a new character to die" but then that replaces Uno, and Uno's very nature means that in that scene in that moment that is exactly how he would have reacted. The only reason Ingtar gets the rest to kneel rather then fight to avenge is because. 

 

Spoiler

He is a darkfriend who knows Ishy and got the secret hand signal that said pretend your my prisoner

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Scarloc99

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, DreadLord31 said:

You gotta back that up with evidence man… 

 

And explain how at the end of S1 they had Fain stab Loial and a number of the Shinarans with the Shadar Logoth dagger and then in S2, 6 Mo later, walah! They’re fine? 
 

Explain how Egwene tear healed a dead or burnt out Nynaeve. 
 

Explain how the Dragon could be “male or female”? When the Dragon Reborn is the reincarnation of LTT… 

 

Explain how their version of the DF social comes even close to accomplishing what it does for the GH. 
 

Explain how the best swordsman in the world can’t handle a Fade. 
 

Explain how Moiraine is gonna “pass the bond to Alanna” whilst shielded or stilled … is there still a bond, what’s up with that? 
 

Dude you gotta have evidence. 
Respectfully… 

 

And, perhaps, our end product will prove my doubts wrong and your confidence right… I sure hope so. 

Ok you are going over old ground here. 

The "Dragon" is male, it is Rand, souls that can be reincarnated into either gender does nothing to change the fundamentals of the story, your fav characters will not be gender swapped at all, but it allowed, for non book readers, a bit of intrigue in season 1, and, at least for the people I know, it worked. I was being asked constantly who the dragon was, and Nyn and Egwene where considered just as much as Rand, thats a fun bit of storytelling. But, and I have said this multiple times, the Dragon in the next turning might be Female, the Dragon in the next turning might be a Ogier, or a group of individuals, we have no idea what the next turning looks like because it is a millenia away and happens long after any knowledge of this world is long forgotten. The Dragon are 2 characters out of many many many millions of battles fought with the darklord, but they have never been the same fight on the same land using the same tools. LTT was the "Dragon this time". 

Rafe stated that the final scene of episode 8 didn't land well, he said the whole idea was that Egwene was using herbs to kepp Nynaeve alive, which, for those who know the books, will understand that is a really clever bit of Foreshadowing for the end of season 8. Now, because of various reasons, including as he said covid protocols the scene didn't come across how he intended it to and so it caused confusion amongst book fans. 

The Dagger, again, my guess is that if Matt had been available for filming, he would have been stabbed and, because he is now "immune" as per the books we see it does not affect him the way it does other people, it can then be a point of intrigue through the rest of the series, how the dagger has such a different effect on others when Matt it was just a dagger. That actually would have been a far better way of telling that bit of story then RJ and BS who sprung the "immunity" thing on us in a line at the end of the last battle. Much like the healing above I think in the panic of last minute re writes they switched things around and Loial got stabbed for a dramatic moment in the show, but they then realised that it opened up a can of worms. Rather then explain away, it has been 5 months and Loial is ok, really it is such an insignificant thing that people are making so so much bigger then it is. Accept that sometimes a writer tries something, it doesn't land so they move on and pretend it never happened rather then create artificial dialogue or waste screen time "fixing the lore". 

DF Social, now you are just trying to find things, what exactly does the DF soicial achieve in the books, I mean really, from a storytelling point of view what does it tell you. It lets you as the reader know that Darkfriends are highly organised, and they meet up, and they have a leadership structure. In the books Eye of the World tellls you nothing about the darkfriend organisation, it tells you nothing about there actual danger to the world, book one is a high fantasy fairly generic get from A to B to do a thing story that does a little bit of lore building but mainly just says "this is the world". When he got approval for Book 2 and beyond RJ knew he needed to show that deeper machinations are going on, and the main bad guys of the series are organised, make plans and are super sneaky. We don't need that in the TV show because that point has been made in season 1, so no this is not the "dark friend social" as it is in the books, because that scene would be really dull and confusing in the show, a person, we don't yet know, goes through a portal to a place and sees a load of people stood there unable to move as they are whispered to. This "social scene" achieved so many more things, it showed Ishy as a character, his thoughts, his emotions, it showed how Darkfriends can be manipulated and created as children, it showed that darkfriends are mothers, daughters, sisters, fathers, it showed that Trollocs are not just mindless beasts but can follow orders and instructions, and it showed that the shadow does not just want the dragon reborn dead. it achieved alot in terms of story. 

Lan at this point in the books is not defined as the best swordsman in the land, and in fact in the books at this point he can't fight off multiple fades. He doesn't do that until a memory of light after months of intense "getting ready for the last battle" training and sparring with Rand and others, and fighting multiple fades over the course of many books. He doesn't do that until he accepts his destiny and gives up the ghosts of the past. Also, in the TV show this Lan has no bond and has no super syan powers, and he still takes on and beats off 2 fades. Lets give the guy some props here. 

Morraine says that Alanna will forcibly bond Lan she doesn't have to mean she will "pass it over" in the way we understand it at all. 

 

All your issues here have solid understandable, both in world and just in terms of good storytelling, answers. You don't like the show, thats fine, but many many many others do so maybe you need to accept that you are entitled to your opinion but all you have stated is just that, opinon not facts. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

this is neither here nor there but just a random thought since you all are doing a fine job of laying out the significant elements and opinions regarding them.
 

 I was thinking about the nyneave test in the show and it struck me that it seems to me like it might be the most true to book unfolding of a plot we’ve seen so far. I’m not saying it’s exact, clearly it’s not, just that I can’t think of anything else up until that point that was as recognizable in its translation and portrayal from page to screen. I personally don’t need the show to be more identical to the books and have enjoyed them as they are…but I was so accustomed to the interpretation being less literal that until that happened I didn’t expect to see anything on screen be so close to the way it was written in the books. 

 

[notpropaganda73]

Really excellent episode and I think the show finally had material good enough within an episode to allow nitpicks to be waved away or forgotten. I was on the edge of my seat along with my partner right up to the end. I can totally see the criticisms regarding the tests not really being Aes Sedai tests in the show (as in, there's no choice to be made between Aes Sedai and the world Nynaeve was in mostly), but while I was in the episode I was really invested in it

 

My partner (non-book reader) was completely hooked and was really really annoyed there wasn't a 4th episode available immediately afterwards.

 

[DreadLord31]

6 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

There's been no indication in the show that the Shadar Logoth dagger is deadlier than a regular knife.

 

 

1) Nynaeve was neither dead nor burnt out

 

2) The mechanics of how Egwene channeled a healing weave are neither important nor relevant

 

 

Rafe and his writers changed Robert Jordan's lore in order to degender souls. This fact has been public knowledge since before Season 1 premiered.

 

 

1) There's been nothing in the show to indicate that Lan is "the best swordsman in the world"

 

2) He no longer benefits from the Warder bond and the preternatural abilities it afforded him

 

 

Moiraine doesn't say anything about "passing the bond"; she says that she'll have Alanna forcibly bond Lan to her (Alanna) if she (Moiraine) has to in order to prevent him (Lan) from following her (Moiraine).

I was writing in response to a comment that the “the writers understand THE BOOKS far better than the ‘hard-core’ fans do.” 
 

the Shadar Logoth dagger being a different kind of evil that is more dangerous and corrupts those it touches…Book essential. 
 

the mechanics of how the OP work and healing and what an untrained Egwene could possibly do -Book essential. 
 

changing the lore/degendering souls— again, that’s not respecting the books —which has a lot to do with ying/yang, male/female, balance/extremes. Gendered souls. I would argue are Book essential. 
 

Lan, being a quintessential Warder - bond or no bond - book essential. 
 

Moiriaine does say something like “she’ll pass the bond to Alanna”; which even in the mechanics of however the show is doing things — doesn’t make sense— is he still bonded or not? He can’t sense it but still has it? Makes me think they are leaning towards she’s permanently shielded.
 

Anyways, all you’ve done — is prove my point. Cause the point is not that the show isn’t good or that the show doesn’t have explanations (and I’ve heard them too). The point is that if you’re going to argue the writers/Rafe understand the books better than hard-core fans you need to give book explanations for why their changes are good changes for the books. 
 

And even explain the need for Sarah Nakamura being a part of the show…at every point they’ve diverged from what she and Brandon Sanderson have recommended to them (there’s definitive proof that they didn’t understand things like at least those two hard-core fans). Sanderson has said on YouTube that he told them not to have Laila and fridge her… 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[DreadLord31]

9 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

All your issues here have solid understandable, both in world and just in terms of good storytelling, answers. You don't like the show, thats fine, but many many many others do so maybe you need to accept that you are entitled to your opinion but all you have stated is just that, opinon not facts. 

I do like the show. I was responding to a comment that the writers of the show understand the books “far better” than the hard core fans. After a post that they killed Uno not really understanding his purpose. Do you think they gave thought to the importance of Uno? I think they explicitly stated they killed him to make us afraid of the Seanchan. 
 

All of my examples were not “this doesn’t work or make sense for the show” examples — they are examples of the how the show writers DO NOT always understand the importance of things in the books. And the Shadar Logoth dagger being more deadly than normal weapons is probably the best example — but the rest were not “the show doesn’t have reasons for doing what they’re doing” examples — or “this isn’t a good show”. S2 has been good Tv. I was simply pointing out why I have low confidence that the writers/showrunner can recognize essential jenga pieces of the WoT & won’t at some point pull out the wrong block. 

 

Cause they already did - with a 'fake-out' Loial death & an accidental 'fake-out' Nynaeve death and healing; and they're just going to move past it and pretend it didn't happen. [Which I'm fine with by the way!]
 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Scarloc99]

34 minutes ago, DreadLord31 said:

I do like the show. I was responding to a comment that the writers of the show understand the books “far better” than the hard core fans. After a post that they killed Uno not really understanding his purpose. Do you think they gave thought to the importance of Uno? I think they explicitly stated they killed him to make us afraid of the Seanchan. 
 

All of my examples were not “this doesn’t work or make sense for the show” examples — they are examples of the how the show writers DO NOT always understand the importance of things in the books. And the Shadar Logoth dagger being more deadly than normal weapons is probably the best example — but the rest were not “the show doesn’t have reasons for doing what they’re doing” examples — or “this isn’t a good show”. S2 has been good Tv. I was simply pointing out why I have low confidence that the writers/showrunner can recognize essential jenga pieces of the WoT & won’t at some point pull out the wrong block. 
 

 

Sorry I got lot in the threads, that makes more sense I disagree with you, but thats ok as well, in that I think the writers do understand the lore and what can and can't be changed, I posted about the uno death earlier so won't repeat it here other to say he is an ancilliary character who does not drive the main story (from the 2 rivers to the last battle) directly, yes they could have put any other made up character in that role but I like we got a glimpse of Uno and he went out in a way consistent with his character in the books. he finds himself in a different situation to the books, but the way he reacts is true to his character and for me that is the key thing. 

For me the things you list are not key things that have to be copied over as is from the books, and the changes made in some ways tell the overall story better then RJ did. I love the WOT but I also think RJ made alot of mistakes in how he structured and wrote them, and I really feel that if he had written book 4 first then books 1-3 would be very very different. Both in terms of story and in some ways tone.  

Edited September 5, 2023 by Scarloc99

[DreadLord31]

5 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

I posted about the uno death earlier so won't repeat it here other to say he is an ancilliary character who does not drive the main story (from the 2 rivers to the last battle) directly

I don’t disagree with you that Uno is non-essential. I just don’t think they gave thought to what his purpose is … in the books … before they killed him. I think their reason was “we need people to fear the Seanchan” so “let’s kill Uno!”

 

I think S2 has been really good tv and good writing. But I understand why the TV’s book expert consultant told book fans to “gird their loins”! 
 

Ultimately, I’ll be fine with changes if it continues to be good Tv!! 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DreadLord31

[Scarloc99]

1 minute ago, DreadLord31 said:

I don’t disagree with you that Uno is non-essential. I just don’t think they gave thought to what his purpose is … in the books … before they killed him. I think their reason was “we need people to fear the Seanchan” so “let’s kill Uno!”

so my question is for you, what do you see his purpose is in the books? I am intrigued how others see him, I have always seen him as a bit of light comic relief, and someone to bounce off of a very serious Nynaeve. He appears a couple of times to get the girls out of trouble and then used as a recurring character when a guard is needed so the reader has a touchpoint in those scenes, but also because he was a fan (and I guess an author) fav so was given a bit of extra screen time. But there is no "Arc" that he drives forward or that could happen without him. The books could exist without him, they would lose those few paragraphs of interesting world building and fun interactions but if you replaced him with a series of different soldiers in each interaction the story would not change. 

Thats how I see him.